Talk:Musical improvisation

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Cleanup

The article needs to be cleaned up after recent edits and added headings (when it was a section of Improvisation). Notice that under the jazz improv section there is information about classical music. Hyacinth 02:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Its now better. The lead still needs work. Hyacinth 22:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, my edit conflicted with yours. I'll take a look at the differences later and try to reconcile them. Outriggr 23:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I fixed it. Perhaps in the future you could reconcile your edits before making them rather than undoing someone else's work? Hyacinth 23:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I will, or likely abort my edits altogether if the other user's change is substantial (I couldn't the extent of your changes, and I was wanting to get off the computer). That's the first time I've encountered this scenario on Wikipedia. I did say I would fix it, and would have, had you not done so already. My original edit may have been an imposition to you, and for that I apologize, but it was not, as you described it in the log, "counterproductive". Peace out. Outriggr 02:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
See Help:Edit conflict for more information. Hyacinth 02:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I didn't notice a second box with my edit, which this helpfile says will show up. Will look for it next time. Outriggr 02:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't yet realize there had been an edit conflict when I wrote the edit summary, I thought you had actually undone my changes rather than edited over them. Hyacinth 03:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular improvisation

I'd like to make some edits to the popular music section, namely the pigeonholing of popular improv into the pentatonic scale as is stated in this article. If anything it's the blues scale that is mostly relied on but saying this alone would be too compact an explanation. I'm also adding parts about how one of the major tenets of jazz is improvisation. --Theloniouszen 20:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, my corrections got a lot longer than expected..I just had a lot to say. --Theloniouszen 00:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, since the blues scale is basically the penatonic with an added blue note, there's not very much difference between the two. Would it be safe to assume that they're both equally common? 151.213.230.196 03:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that the blues scale and the pentatonic are a note away from each other (blues scale is 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7 and pentatonic is 1,2,3,5,6). I think harmonically there is a great distance between the two - the blues scale can be used equally well with major and minor keys and has a certain edge to it from which an entire genre of music has spawned. The pentatonic scale makes me think of either East Asian music or Duane Allman's introduction to "Jessica". If you wanted a scale in jazz that is for the most part wholly major, the Mixolydian is a lot more common, becuase the b7 fits in with the stacked chord nature of jazz harmonics.--Theloniouszen 06:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, any scale consisting of 5 notes can be called pentatonic. Pax:Vobiscum 14:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism?

Third paragraph of the section titled "Western Classical Music"

Throughout the Baroque, Classical, and Romantic periods, improvisation was a highly valued skill. J.S. Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt, and many other famous composers and musicians were known especially for their improvisational skills. Many classical scores contained sections for improvisation, such as the cadenza in concertos. The preludes to some keyboard suites by Bach and Handel, for example, consisted solely of a progression of chords. The performers used these as the basis for their improvisation.

  1. 4 on the list

http://www.jazclass.aust.com/articles/impro1.htm

Many classical scores contained sections for improvisation. The preludes to keyboard suites by Bach and Handel for example consisted solely of a progression of chords. The performers used these as basis for their improvisation (just like in Jazz). In the scores of to day most of these progressions have been translated into full music notations by various editors.

Clearly, this bit was copied. The web page indicates that the material is copyrighted. This section needs a rewrite, or citation.

Thanks very much for showing us this. This was an older part of the article. I did not write it. Funny, that I developed that idea later in the article more fully, without remembering its earlier mention, and I had not checked any of the first material for plagiarism. Sincerely, Chris G. Oct. 12th 68.14.108.62 18:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] possible sub-heading article: "Personal Improvisation"

It seems to me there is an interesting area of improvisation which has been neglected by this article. There are a large number of individuals who pursue what could be called "Personal Improvisation" where the individual creates music on the spot which may derive from one or more idioms, or where the individual creates a new idiom as well as deriving from existing ones. The difference between Personal Improvisation and conventional forms of improvisation such as Jazz and (until the late 19th century) Western classical improvisation is that it doesn't necessarily take direct influence from particular melodies, chord progressions, rhythms or structures of any kind, yet it usually has a familiar sound. The way in which personal improvisation is pursued varies greatly from individual to individual. Some may play in a "new age" style, some may play in a blues or jazz style, some may play in a modern style, some may play in a baroque style, or any combination of any of these styles or a new style.

One could almost say personal improvisation is "idiomatic free improvisation," in that it doesn't follow any rules, but it has the freedom to IMPORT rules or create new ones.

Some possible links to articles that support this suggestion:

http://ericbarnhill.wordpress.com/facts-about-improvisation/

William Harris has written a bunch of articles which I think describe "Personal Improvisation" extremely well.

http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/classical.improv.html http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/MusicPapers/PersonalMusic.html http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/MusicPapers/baroque.html

This is also a very good point (Chris G.) Oct. 12th. It sounds like you are talking partly about that classic rock, descending and ascending "I, V, iv" progression that amateur pianists love to play over. It appears also in that movie The Piano. It is something, however, which is only just now beginning to be dated, since early this decade. In a way, I am glad for that--the repetitiveness, and longstandingness of it is overdue for a change, but where we are headed culturally is also uncertain.68.14.108.62 18:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Personal Improvisation doesn't have much public visibility, but it is a real phenomenon. I think it would be nice even if there were a small blurb about it on wikipedia, so anyone who reads about it might get the idea: "wow, there are normal people out there who love to improvise and don't follow rules but play familiar sounding music? cool! I should try it, too!"

Thoughts? Think this is a good idea? If not, why not? If so, help me find articles/references to support Personal Improvisation. Thanks.

In the part about harmonization you will find earlier I said the major tetrachord could be harmonized "I, vi, I, IV." I meant "I, v, I, IV." But perhaps at the point at which there emerges a new discussion, then it will be apparent that the article is actually being read widely. At this point it seems to be still on the way toward hitting a discussion and possible tagging for original research and excessive length. I am surprised at how long it is lasting without such scrutiny.Cdg1072 15:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Competitions

In section 2.1, Current trends, under Western classical music, I find these words:

There are not yet competitions for this art form, nor is it clear how the different forms will be adjudicated if competitions do arrive.

Wait now. Aren't there competitions in organ improvisation? That topic is noticably lacking from the article, by the way, but at the very least it would falsify the above claim. EldKatt (Talk) 21:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

This is pretty much a blunder on my part. Thanks. And I think I know of a way to correct the passage. It should acknowledge that competitions for organ improvisation exist, but that the world of piano competition is somehow immune or isolated from it. This is really more like the point I wanted to make. Sorry 68.14.108.62 19:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

How can we make the article account for what goes on in organ improvisation events? I've never attended or heard the music of such a concert, but I wouldn't want the extensive treatment I gave of improvisation to stand in the way of these other things.74.241.72.181 16:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)