Portal talk:Music

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Featured portal The Music Portal is a featured portal, which means it has been identified as one of the best portals on Wikipedia. If you see a way this portal can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, please feel free to contribute.
This talk page is for the Portal about Music. Ensure this portal's details are listed in the Portal directory.

Discussion should centre on improving the Portal. Content disputes should take place on the appropriate article's talk page.


For discussion about Portals generally, please see the WikiProject on Portals.
Other languages This portal has been identified as having a featured counter-part at the French language Wikipedia. You may be able to improve this article with information from fr:Portail:Musique.
To-do list for Portal:Music: edit · history · watch · refresh
clear
  • Keep things updated:
  • Add more anniversaries, in particular for the months of November, December and January.
  • Add hidemain=true to birthday entries with red links, and also other entries to make the list shorter on the main portal page.

For discussion related to music on Wikipedia but not to the portal, please use the Music Noticeboard.

Purge page cache if page isn't updating.
Archive
Archives
  1. June 2005 - November 2006


Contents


[edit] Sound of the day

Wikipedia:Sound of the day has been on the front side of this page for several months now, though I've neglected to update the weekly offerings for quite a while. What I want to know is, have folks noticed it? I'm going to try to revive it in the coming days; anyone who is interested in helping please see Wikipedia talk:Sound of the day. Thanks.--Pharos 03:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Correct me if I err, but it seems that the content in question is rather stagnant. Perhaps now is the time to re-evaluate if this is the best use of the real estate on the portal's main page. Changing the image periodically might help draw attention to the section; seeing the gramophone daily is, in a word, underwhelming. --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 15:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Good idea re: image changing. I propose (and just implemented) images relating to the current featured files. If there is no GFDL-compatible image, we can use another image — the gramophone, or maybe just a note — for backup. Λυδαcιτγ 22:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Cosmetic changes are nice, but how about the actual content? If the information is stagnant, then the effort might amount to "lipstick on a pig." --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 23:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Wikipedia:Featured sounds is finally up and running, so hopefully when we get a few more passed noms in Wikipedia:Featured sound candidates we'll revamp Sound of the Day soon.--Pharos 00:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
          • Given the earlier post about action over "...the coming days...", qualifying "soon" in this context might be helpful... --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 21:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
            • A few weeks, or maybe less; that's how long it would take to approve at least seven or so featured sounds at the current rate.--Pharos 00:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFI

Two questions:

1. Recently, I have refrained from participating in discussions on this talk page; the feature [of convenience] which allows feedback to specific subsections — a local edit button — has been missing for quite a while now. Is anyone else aware of this? Having to use the main edit button when this page is overloaded with discussions can be quite cumbersome.

Fixed. Λυδαcιτγ 21:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  • What was responsible for the missing feature? Also, what was the fix for the issue? --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 04:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I think it was a problem with the Todo box somehow conflicting. Madder 20:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

2. The January 08 birthday entry on Wendell Phillips Culley was concealed for some unexplained reason. What specifically is the issue with the entry? --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 15:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

If it's not concealed, the entry appears like this:
Wendell Phillips Culley (January 8, 1906 –[[ June {{{6}}}| June {{{6}}}]], 1983), American trumpeter, would have turned 101 this year.
I wasn't sure how to fix it so I just commented it out for the time being, so it can quickly be reinstated when the problem is sorted.I think it might have something to do with the last variable in the template entry being a month (June) rather than the specific date (a number), but I'm not sure? Madder 22:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birthdays

The birthdays section is really cumbersome. I think that we should create two separate sections, one for living people, and one for the deceased to cut some confusion. bibliomaniac15 00:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

How would that help? Λυδαcιτγ 00:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the real problem is that hidemain=true isn't being put in enough and so the list is too long and full of red links. I've been going through putting in hidemain=true for some time now but it's a pain in the neck, and I've even looked into an automated way of doing it but can't find anything. I don't think dividing it into separate sections would help, rather it would make the whole thing even more laborious than it already is. We really need some automated way of sticking hidemain=true into entries with red links, and every other odd entry to shorten the list, because at the moment it's just making Portal:Music look a plain mess, and I just can't keep up with having to update it the whole time. Best, Madder 17:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Adding the hidemain attribute to redlinked articles would be easy. I can do that if you want. Λυδαcιτγ 18:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
All right, it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be, but I did this. However, you have to use the pagelink variable if you want an entry whose page is not at the author's name to show up on the main Portal page - so Folajimi, piped entries won't show up. Here's how to make the change. Λυδαcιτγ 19:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking columns, not sections. Sorry for the miswording. bibliomaniac15 18:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

  • This appears to be a form vs. function issue; the aesthetics can be resolved once the information is available. In the meantime, the list of birthdays could be removed from the main page, so as to avoid drawing attention to the list Just a thought. --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 20:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Would that mean that once all the birthdays are entered and hidemain=true has been entered on every page, the birthdays would be restored to the main page? Madder 14:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
      • It might be more efficient to have the section limit listings displayed on the page to a dozen lines or less. This will address the issue of manageability, which could (for other reasons) crop up in the future... Folajimi 16:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
        • How? By editing the box on the Portal page to only be a certain length? I'm not sure if that would work, but perhaps it's worth a try. Λυδαcιτγ 19:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Agreed. The idea was to avoid additional "hard coding" – either by creating another list or otherwise. Dynamic listing of entries may be a pipe dream, though. --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 20:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
            • Red links might still slip through though, which we don't want on a portal page. How can this be avoided? Madder 16:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
              • Oh and there seems to be a problem with the deaths thing in the news, for some reason the one name that it should be displaying is appearing twice, even though it's only been entered once. I looked at the code but can't see what's wrong with it? Madder 17:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
            • I can implement this also. Check out User:Audacity/Sandbox for an example. But I haven't tested it thoroughly, and I'm not sure how the pixel limit would respond to different page and entry sizes. If you want me to experiment more with this, I can do so. Λυδαcιτγ 15:57, 3 February 2007
  • I took the dead people off of the main Portal page. Λυδαcιτγ 20:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Single calendar

As it stands, a new calendar has to be created annually for each month of birthdays. For example, Portal:Music/DateOfBirth/February/2007 will be useless next year because the current month fails to account for the extra date of the leap year. This means that Portal:Music/DateOfBirth/February/2008 will have to be created, and the day the month starts will have to be recalculated.

Is it possible to have a single list of calendar dates, which automatically adjusts to determine which day of the week the month begins? It would also avoid having to manually determine how many rows of weeks needs to be "hard coded" into each template.

An apropos example of the row calculation would be Portal:Music/DateOfBirth/December/2006, which happened to span across six weeks. (Note that the same could be said for any other month — except February of course...) --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 14:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that this is impossible with the current magic words. However, one way to save time would be to do a big transfer for the next year or two from the main calendar pages, like {{FebruaryCalendar2007}} and {{FebruaryCalendar2007Source}}.
Alternatively, we could ask the owner of the bot which made the main calendar source pages to run the bot again, and include an optional variable that we could use to make each calendar link to the DOB page, rather than the article about that date. Then, instead of creating new pages for each month, we would link to the main calendar page for that month, which would be updated by the updater of those pages. Λυδαcιτγ 19:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The idea is to make the calendar as dynamic as possible; if using the bot would be the most effective method of achieving this goal, then perhaps that would be the best route to take. --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 22:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the functionality was already in the source code. Everything should be set until 2025! Λυδαcιτγ 04:55, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
How can this functionality be employed here? --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 14:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Now, instead of creating new pages for each year, we let the main calendar bot create the pages (which have been made up to 2025) and base our calendars on the source code for theirs.
Unless someone sees a problem with the new system, I'll ask an admin to delete all the Portal:Music/DateOfBirth/<Month>/<2006/2007> pages. Λυδαcιτγ 18:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I guess that takes care of that. Thanks for looking into this matter. --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 02:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page format

Is much of the page garbled, like overlapping headings, large gaps, etc. or is it just my screen? Cricket02 03:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It's fine for me. Maybe get Firefox if you don't have it already? Or try adjusting your font size? Λυδαcιτγ 03:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. I figured it was just this screen so I tried looking on a different puter and no change. And I just tried many other portals and subportals and they look fine. I dunno. Cricket02 05:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I've been on the page many times before and it looked fine then.  ??? Is it just me? Cricket02 05:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not at Firefox, and on my screen it's the same. Tomer T 21:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I just wonder why all the other subportals show up fine on my screen(s), just not the music portal......any ideas?? Its kinda got me baffled. Cricket02 01:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest creating a user subpage (e.g., User:Cricket02/Test), copying the source code from Portal:Music, and playing around with the code. If you find a fix you can then apply it to the actual Portal page. Λυδαcιτγ 02:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Audacity's suggestion. Could you also give us the platform you're using, ie. exact operating system version, browser version etc. Madder 00:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not at Firefox, and on my screen it's the same. Tomer T 21:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I just wonder why all the other subportals show up fine on my screen(s), just not the music portal......any ideas?? Its kinda got me baffled. Cricket02 01:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest creating a user subpage (e.g., User:Cricket02/Test), copying the source code from Portal:Music, and playing around with the code. If you find a fix you can then apply it to the actual Portal page. Λυδαcιτγ 02:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Audacity's suggestion. Could you also give us the platform you're using, ie. exact operating system version, browser version etc. Madder 00:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I thought that was a good idea too, but tried and failed miserably (technically challenged). Anyway, I just now finally took the time to check into what Firefox was, downloaded it as my new web browser, and what a difference. The page is perfect. I use Windows 2000 and had IE 6.0, of which has been screwing up lately anyway like shutting down, etc., very aggravating, so I think I'm really going to like Firefox as a browser, never actually knew there were choices before, (duh). I thank you both for your suggestions. Cricket02 00:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Offline version

Is there a way I could download an offline version of the entire music subgroup? I'd like to have it as an offline reference...is that even possible? Help would be appreciated, thank you!! Cam hovey90 02:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I know a CD of selected Wikipedia articles is released, but I don't know which articles are on there and how one would go about obtaining it. A google search for "offline wikipedia" also brings up some interesting results. Madder 14:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry if this is a stupid question

... but where can I go to find the music help-desk? I've search everywhere, or at least it feels that way... I'm beginning to think that it doesn't even exist...? But that doesn't seem rational. Can anybody provide me with a link to the music help-desk, please? ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 22:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Try the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Entertainment or Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. bibliomaniac15 22:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks a lot :D ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 10:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK rotations.

Is the rotation of the "Did You Know?" section random, or is there a specific order in which the entries are rotated? --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 15:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

They rotate every three days — 1 to 2 to 3. Λυδαcιτγ 00:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to make it random? For example, if there are nine such pages, is there a way to make it appear in a random fashion (e.g. 2 to 8 to 5 to 4 to 1 to 8 to 9 to ...)? --Folajimi (leave a note) 01:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Definitely, but with only 3 it seems preferable to rotate. Λυδαcιτγ 01:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. I am willing to look into creating more to make it worthwhile. How about adding six pages? --Folajimi (leave a note) 02:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
No objections here — would be a major improvement. Λυδαcιτγ 03:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
6 pages sounds like a great idea. Madder 16:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm taking a break; filling out the calendar has left me rather spent. This will be the first item on the agenda when I return. --Folajimi (leave a note) 22:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Music video stuck in my head

Hey ppl

I was wondering if you could help me. I have this music video playing over and over in my head but I cant remember who the artist is or what the song is. I know this is a long shot, but if can help me, please do.

The music video starts off with a guy in casual clothes and he finds this balloon with a womans face on it. He tries to catch her, but fails, then she lets him catch her (the balloon) they walk down the street and a bunch of kids see them. One of the kids has a ketty and shoots the balloon-faced-girl and she pops. Its a beautiful duet between these two.

Please, I feel like Mrs Daisy, except I'm being driven up the wall.

Regards T 196.207.47.60 17:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 19:40 14-05-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.207.47.60 (talk) 17:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Featured portal?

Folajimi has finished the birthdays entries, and Madder has submitted a request for peer review. It looks to me like this Portal is ready to be featured. The first step will be to work on the to-do list, and meanwhile, let's take a new look at the Portal for anything else that could be changed. Λυδαcιτγ 02:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Totally agree. A few points about the to-do list though:
  1. I don't think quotes are actually a good idea. We'll get into a whole debate about which quotes should actually be there, and also they seem to detract from the main content below (I would criticise the decision to use quotes on the French portal). As a compromise however, maybe some quotes could go in the 'Did You Know' section?
  2. I agree with what is said on Portal talk:Music/Important, there are too many Featured Articles listed in the 'Explore...' box. There should be a limit.
  3. ...And then featured here we come! (let's hope! :-)
Madder 23:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The birthdays are missing from the Portal page. How come? --Folajimi (leave a note) 15:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I can see them fine... are you sure you can't see them? Madder 22:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
      • The list is now visible; it was missing when I made my previous post. --Folajimi (leave a note) 11:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Music/Did you know done - 5 pages total and better image sizes. Λυδαcιτγ 01:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

We need to work on keeping the Music News section updated. Should be easy enough with sites like [1]. Λυδαcιτγ 01:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Did you Know is looking great! I try to keep the music news section updated but unfortunately only sporadically. Billboard is good, BBC Music News is good too. Madder 02:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I have created two DYK pages; however, the template fails to report this. What is the procedure for adding pages to the list? --Folajimi (leave a note) 20:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Also, is it possible to randomize the entries for the list of birthdays which appear on the Portal page? --Folajimi (leave a note) 20:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
      • Wonderful; I added them to Portal:Music/Did you know/Nav. Randomize meaning have the entries in random order? Λυδαcιτγ 21:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
        • Actually, I meant that the process of picking which names are displayed for each birthday. The idea is to avoid having the same handful of people showing up on a given day, year after year. Perhaps you can explain how the names are picked? --Folajimi (leave a note) 00:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
          • I think they're all used, except for ones which do not have an article or ones that have been hidden with hidemain=true. Λυδαcιτγ 05:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disappearing project?

Whatever happened to the OmniMusica? Is it an abandoned effort, or is there just not enough stated interest to keep it going? - NDCompuGeek 03:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Both, I guess. It seems like a non-optimal use of time to me - I don't see many people buying an encyclopedia of just music when they could get the full encyclopedia instead. Λυδαcιτγ 22:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmmmm.... Maybe something should be put on the OmniMusica page that states something like "This effort has been closed due to ....". Just caught my eye as I was surfing through some music stuff. - NDCompuGeek 00:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Isn't the inactive tag sufficient? Λυδαcιτγ 02:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Small bug in Portal:Music/Did_you_know/Nav

Hi, Just noticed there's a little bug in Portal:Music/Did_you_know/Nav - both links to Page 1 and Page 2 actually link to Page 7. I can't see what the problem is in the code? Madder 02:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Λυδαcιτγ 04:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article

How come so many of the featured articles are to do with Slayer? It seems someone is a bit obsessed to me. Andyroo g 09:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree that there do seem to be a lot of recently featured music-related articles on Wikipedia to do with Slayer. However, featured articles aren't chosen by one person. Instead, one person has to put up an article to become featured, and then any Wikipedia user can either agree or disagree with the nomination. Clearly in this case there have been a lot of improvements made to several Slayer-related articles meaning that they were all worthy of featured-article status. It's nothing to do with one person being obsessed. Madder 19:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Can never get enough Slayer! M3tal H3ad 13:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Templates seeking approval

I have created a set of music Navboxes, and I'm trying to seek approval. Each one covers a certain genre or category. Now I realize we already have a Template:Navbox musical artist. I feel that one template can't support all genres of musc (suppose if the one template was changed, it would affect all other template, which could be a pain). The templates can be found HERE. I have only created navboxes for "solo hip hop artist", "hip hop groups" (i.e. D12, G-Unit, NWA, etc.), "solo pop singer", "pop group" (i.e. Destiny's Child, NSYNC, etc.), "solo rock singer" (i.e. John Lennon, Paul McCartney, etc.), "rock band", and "other". If there are any other notable genres to be created, I can create it. The more feedback I have on this, the better. MITB LS 23:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh hey... can I get feedback on my talk page? cause I'll be checking that a lot more frequently than this talk page. Thank you. MITB LS 01:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portal:Heavy metal

I reckon Portal:Heavy metal (which is up at FPoc) is a worthy candidate for inclusion in the subportals section, but it's hard to see how the design could be adjusted. Any thoughts? CloudNine 08:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend removing sub-subportals, such as classical guitar, which is a subportal of guitar. Or removing specific and unupdated portals such as eurovision and pipeorgan. Reducing the size of the images should also be looked at, as it would give room for another row. Another option could be to make a music portals template such as {{military browsebar}}. Joe I 02:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Done (first suggestion). Thanks. Λυδαcιτγ 03:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] wikimobileactunsigned.com

Hello guys,

Have just started a wiki-directory of local music info across the UK - do any of you, who know stuff about local scenes in the UK, fancy popping over to help start it up? I think it could be a very powerful resource, when filled up :)

More info on the site here: http://www.wikimobileactunsigned.com

Annihilatenow 16:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Troldhaugen: Who's Wedding?

Does anyone know who's wedding was being celebrated in Edvard Greig's "Wedding Day at Troldhaugen?" Or suggest where to go to ask? Thank you, Shir-El too (talk) 03:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] sound samples for musical instruments

I would find it very helpful if articles on musical instruments included sound samples. While it may appear somewhat useless in case of the sound of a piano or a violin, it does much less so when one would like to feel the difference between a clarinet and an obeo. I myself noticed that when listenig to instrumental classical music I am often not capable of clearly establishing what instrument I am hearing.

It may be interesting to agree on a simple melody which could then be interpreted on various instruments thereby making it easy to compare the sound. dpavlic 17:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musical Notation in Articles?

I've noticed that articles which involve the writing of musical score do so by inserting graphics. Therefore, if a user wishes to notate something they must use an external program to do so and save as an image. I was wondering if it would be possible to introduce musical notation like that which is used in mathematical articles to express formulae.

I'm not sure whether Wikipedia uses something MathML or LaTeX based for its mathematics, however that is the sort of thing I'm talking about. MusicTex perhaps?

Options: http://www.ctan.org/cgi-bin/search.py?metadataSearch=music&metadataSearchSubmit=Search 82.3.240.21 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikisource:Sheet music, et al.. ¦ Reisio (talk) 01:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikinews import

We should take advantage of the User:Wikinews Importer Bot. Λυδαcιτγ 18:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Y Done RichardF (talk) 01:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of...

Is there a real need to have articles for "List of <genre> <musicial instrument players>"? Of the ones I had a look at here, here, and here, these types of lists would be better off in categories, of which there already are. UnfriendlyFire (talk) 00:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Asked atWikipedia:WikiProject Music UnfriendlyFire (talk) 02:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Hello, my name is Iron Chef. Just wanted to say that you all have done an excelent job in setting up this portal! The composite image at the top of the page looks great, and everything seems to be very well organised. I am the administrator at my own Wikia Wiki called Garage Bands, and I could use some help setting up Portals and pages simular to this one. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm spamming, because all I really want is some help setting up portals and attracting users. If anyone would like to help me with this, please let me know :). (My Garage Bands Talk Page) --Iron Chef (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Banner

Image:Bandeau_portail_musique.jpg has unfortunately been deleted. Is anyone up for making a replacement? Λυδαcιτγ 05:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I was the author of the banner, I made a backup "just in case". I hope I'll find enough time someday to make a new one.. Dake (talk) 21:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I don't know where to ask my question

Hi I'm Omar. Wikipedia helped me follow the singles/albums of my favourite singers but something is really missing. A year ago (something like that) you still putted the chart positions in the infobox. It was fantastic! But now, you don't put it there anymore. Why that? It was very good that way!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.128.75 (talk) 15:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is it useful for solfege/harmony/...?

I built this tables about notes-keys. Maybe you can find it useful to put in any article, it's up to you. On the other hand, it shows how some notes articles are not done: could be done a redirect as in G-flat minor and A-sharp major (I'm just starting learning music, so I don't know myself if it would be correct). If you use the tables or a version please tell me to learn more. Sobreira (parlez) 14:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)