Talk:Muffin (English)

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[edit] English Muffins in America

I have to really question this. Cooked in a griddle? As an American I have never encountered this or even heard of it. English Muffins are known as a bread product from Thomas' Bakery (http://thomas.gwbakeries.com/) and are split with a fork at home then prepared in a toaster. I would correct it myself, but I'm not clear if Thomas' uses some kind of skillet-like step during their creation before packaging and placing them on grocery store shelves. In their untoasted form they appear like a wide, barely cooked, biscuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.51.213 (talk) 09:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

(The Name)To be politically correct, shouldn't "English" Muffins be called "British" Muffins? Unless of course Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland don't like to eat this particular type of muffin.--Secret Agent Man 13:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

English muffins, as described here, do exist in the UK. They can be bought at most supermarkets. I buy them every week. Deb 16:49, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I didn't write that part, but are they called "English muffins" or something else? dml 17:04, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I think we still just call them muffins, but it's true there is some confusion since we started getting the American-style muffin over here. Deb 22:05, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've deleted that part. Almost every supermarket I know in Britain sells Muffins - both the English bread-type variety and the "American style" cupcake variety. If you asked for an English muffin you would get the bread variety. McDonalds sell an Egg McMuffin which is described as an English Muffin with egg... Tjwood 14:37, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to wade into this, but "muffin" in parts of the UK just means bread roll, and there are marked regional variations on what terms mean in the UK -- anyhow people tend to assume you are talking about what they recognise. But I have never seen a packet marked "English muffins" on a shelf in England, now asking some random shelf stacker in a super market if they have "English muffins" does not prove that there is such a thing as "English muffins". You can buy English tea, and have a full English breakfast, but until I see a packet "sourced and made in England" there are no "English muffins".

See the supermarkets? I bought 2 packs from Tescos today :)

"The Mothers Pride brand is nearly 70 years old. It made its first appearance in the north in 1936 and became a national brand in 1956...As well as the traditional favourites, such as Mothers Pride English muffins, crumpets, fruited teacakes, hot cross and currant buns, there is an assortment of regional specialities, including Mothers Pride Derby scones, Devon scones and Scotch pancakes, and other traditional Scottish fair; potato scones and soda scones."

EDROCKS 05:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And we really should not confuse the name with the product it refers to. This whole article needs citations to be honest, and comparisions between scone, crumpet and the so-called "English muffin". An etymology of the term would be most helpful.

For clarification -- it would make more sense to refer to "muffin (cake)" for baking soda ones -- as they are like cupcakes, and "muffin (bread)" for the yeast based griddle scone or bannock like muffin. Hormel English Muffins

If this is actually a variation of a griddle scone, ironically it isn't English, but more likely Scotish. random googled page about scones

Still that so many native English speakers think English muffins are crumpets, rather than what appear to be scone like bread products, would suggest they are far from available and far from popular in merry old England. --Tonypercy 10:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Given that it is possible to purchase English Muffins in all the main supermarkets in the UK (ASDA, Tesco, Sainsbury's, Morrisons) this would suggest that Tonypercy is incorrect in its assumptions. Examples:

And surely you can't say 'so many' without any stats whatsoever backing you up? EDROCKS 05:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Muffin' vs 'English Muffin'

Usually, in the UK, people talk about just 'muffins'. Out of the 88 concordance matches of the word 'muffin' in the British National Corpus, the word 'English' was used twice, and the word 'American-style' was used once. So it seems that British people infer the particular type of muffin being referred to by the context of the word. (This is what you would expect, linguistically, anyway):

http://www.sketchengine.co.uk/auth/corpora/run.cgi/freqs?q=alc%2C%5B%5D+%22muffins%3F%22;corpname=preloaded%2Fbnc&refs=%3Dbncdoc.id;fcrit=word+0~0%3E0;ml=1 You need to create an account but this is free.

[edit] Biscuits

A recent edit has added an (unsourced) suggestion that Muffins ought to be classified as biscuits. That would be very surprising to a speaker of British English because (to us) a biscuit is a cookie and they obviously arent'. The US usage of biscuis appears to be for a kind of bread, and then an English Muffin should be so classified. I wonder if someone could clarify this. Perhaps the original contributor? Francis Davey 17:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Seconded, thanks. I did have a look on Alton Brown's website and a few other links but couldn't find anything Kymara 09:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


Americans needs to clarify what they mean by biscuit, and cookie. By biscuit they might be including scones. Their cookies are what native speakers of English deem biscuits on the whole.

[edit] Crumpet

This article needs to be merged with Crumpet, the UK term. Jumbo 13:12, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I just expanded the article; I think they are not quite the same and don't need merging. See what you think. Elf | Talk 17:13, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Quite right, they are totally different. I much prefer crumpets but like the occasional muffin. US style muffins are ghastly though, I would be sick if I ate one. Francis Davey 19:50, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
They have to be sourdough muffins, split, not sliced, and broiled under a grill, not toasted in a toaster, and then slathered with butter. Then they're pretty good. And the best hamburgers or cheeseburgers are made with them (by true connoisseurs) instead of hamburger buns.... Hayford Peirce 20:27, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Roman spear points

Any chance of getting a link to this? I'm curious as to what they are and why they are called this


[edit] Spelling

Is it just me or does anyone else object to having American spelling (flavor) about an English food? I wouldn't normally mind, I know the wikipedia guidelines say both are ok, but really ... anyone? Not meaning to offend in the slightest Kymara 11:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with you. The Wikipedia Handbook of Style says that articles should use the appropriate regional spelling, so the article on New York should use American spelling, while the article on London should use British English. I think it's obvious that 'English Muffins' should use English spelling. Saluton 20:04, 14th May 2006 (UTC).


The first English muffin was sold in the US. It clearly is a US product. The same way Balti and Chicken Tika Marsala were created by immigrants for the local population in England, and are not Indian food. Therefore the spelling should be in American.

English muffins have existed since before America was founded UKWikiGuy (talk) 15:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from 'Cheesemuffin'

The page Cheesemuffin suggested does not exist. Nor does any other combination I've tried i.e. Cheese (M/m)uffin. If I get no replies here I'll delete the suggestion in a few days. Kymara 11:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation of Tony Sidaway's removal of paragraph about Alton Brown

I've removed this paragraph:

Because of their cooking style and the composition of their dough, some, most notably Alton Brown, argue that English muffins are in fact biscuits. They do not propose that anything be changed, however.

It seems to be just a namedrop for a guy with a cookery show. This is his personal opinion, which is sort of interesting, but in my opinion not really suitable for the encyclopedia article. --Tony Sidaway 12:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This bit does not seem quite right

In northern England "Muffin" is a common term for a circular sandwich bread roll, often wrongly refered to as a barm, cob, barmcake, bap or teacake.


I've never seen a breadroll referred to as a muffin - it's either breadroll or if you go into the north it's a barm. --Charlesknight 18:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Bread rolls / barms / cobs / baps / barmcakes today mean a bread roll, so a circular sandwich bread roll is not incorrectly referred to as a barm, cob, barmcake or bap. Teacake is something else again. Muffin is certainly not the correct term for these others, yet the text suggests it is the only correct term. This confusion also seems to have been continued on the Muffin page. EDROCKS 05:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English/US muffins

I have removed the following,

Despite the name, English muffins are not as popular in the United Kingdom as they are in North America, and the word Muffin in Britain most commonly refers to the same thing as in the U.S.

since it is absolute nonsense. At the very least, the unqualified usage of the word "muffin" from one UK English speaker to another would refer most of the time to an English muffin. Naturally, I have no statistical source to back this up, but as Wittgenstein remarked, "explanations must end somewhere". Soobrickay 02:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ...and I'm tagging it with {globalize/USA} too | US bias and fixing it

I have removed the following from the article as it doesn't specify in which countries it is true:

"English muffins are usually available in regular flavor (usually unsweetened white flour), sourdough, whole wheat, and raisin, and occasionally in gourmet flavors such as blueberry, orange spice, and so on. Most English muffins are 3–4 inches (8–10 cm) across and less than 1 inch (2.5 cm) high, although gourmet varieties are somewhat larger."

Njál 19:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm hovering over how to fix the article. If the descriptions in it are accurate, an 'English muffin' is something like a cross between a muffin and a crumpet. We can't have a article on American 'English muffins' and another article on English 'muffins' — they are closely related. I think I shall create sections. Could someone please check that the section I am going to label 'American' really is? Njál 20:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
(Removed the {globalize/USA} tag now as I've fixed/clarified most of my objections — the request for checking above is still valid.) Njál 21:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

I'd rather like to make 'Muffin' a disambig page and link to something like Muffin (cake) and Muffin (bread) — but I'm fairly sure I'd be outvoted on that (bitter experience, bigger populations...). However, on the principle that an article about a (originally) British thing should have a British, or at least a neutral (i.e. not propagating a specific region's term — Wikipedia is here to report, not influence) name: are there objections to or suggestions for renaming this article?

[edit] To do

  • cut down the number of links to 'brands' — I will do this randomly if not done by someone familiar with them (done)
  • cut down the number of pictures of someone's cookery batch (done)
  • add a picture of a muffin bought or made in England (done)
  • check a recipe for US-style English muffins/make sure the pictures are representative. For example, what do the versions McDonalds sell look like?

Njál 21:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Breakfast muffin

Just to check — do we commonly call them 'breakfast muffins'? If we do, I'll add the info back in at the top (and add a disambig page). Njál 21:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] We rarely if ever eat "english muffins" in the UK.

From the photo it looks like what I would call a bap thats been toasted. 80.2.202.130 21:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Never heard of this before

"Muffins in Britain Muffins are made with a soft, kneaded dough of flour, milk, yeast, sugar, and salt. This proves (rises), is rolled out and formed into shape, and left to rise again. The muffins are then cooked on a lightly-greased hot surface such as a griddle or frying pan. Crumpet rings are not involved in the current form. Muffins are commonly eaten at teatime."

I've never eaten anything like that, and I'm English. I've certainly never cooked anything "on a griddle or frying pan". And in all the years my old mother prepared me a traditional tea, I never had a "muffin". (I also noticed in other articles about english things, the american writer sometimes writes their "disneyfied" belief in what something is like, rather than what its actually like). 80.2.202.130 21:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm British and I've certainly had (English) muffins. They aren't so common now - but traditional teas are rarer, but they were certainly very much more common earlier last century. I have frequently cooked things on griddles for tea but mostly drop scones (aka Scots pancakes). What has happened is that in England in particular, crumpets have taken over the role of muffins in almost their entirety. English people usually buy pre-made crumpets rather than cooking their own as well. Francis Davey 14:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I too, as a Brit, have never seen an English muffin before. If you say 'muffin' to an English person they will think of a normal 'muffin' not what Americans call an 'English muffin'. I believe we used to eat English muffins here but they are not common at all anymore. 80.42.203.35 21:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Depends on your age and background. Also, you may be a little unobservant. I was in Sainsbury's at the weekend and found on the bread shelf some bread products described as "muffins" which were without doubt English Muffins, so your usage is certainly not universal. Francis Davey 11:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] (Afternoon) tea

From the "Muffins in Britain" section:

Contrary to popular belief, muffins are not eaten during afternoon tea, as in post-empire Britain "afternoon tea" or simply "tea" commonly refers to dinner or evening meal.

Eh? I'm British, and live in the West Midlands, where "tea" is commonly used to mean a hot evening meal at about 6pm. But I would never, ever call that meal "afternoon tea", and can't recall anyone I know doing so either. "Afternoon tea" I would use, in a deliberately slightly affected manner, to describe the old-fashioned "cucumber sandwiches" affair at 4pm or so. The terms aren't interchangeable. I've rejigged the sentence to something a bit more accurate - though I freely confess that trying to explain how dinner can be called tea and lunch can be called dinner isn't that easy! Loganberry (Talk) 16:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The section is absolute rubbish, and possibly NNPOV (class warring.)Afternoon tea is very much alive and well in Britain. Rhinoracer (talk) 20:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I propose that this whole section be deleted. No editor has submitted any real evidence as to the time of day, or accompaniment that is more likely for muffins now and any real evidence that this has changed at all. The whole section now digresses into a discussion of meal time terminology which has nothing to do with muffins. No English person could fail to understand what afternoon tea meant (regardless of regional or class distinctions as to the meaning of "tea" on its own). However, there is really nothing useful to be said about it. Muffins are eaten at afternoon tea and breakfast. Has this changed? Is it a class thing? We simply don't have any useful information and I strongly suggest this part of the article be removed, rather than attempting to rejig. If no-one objects, I will do so. Francis Davey (talk) 20:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Muffins rule

I just spent half an hour explaining what muffins were to someone, this page helped a lot :) Also, sainsburys do a 'cheese and pepper' muffin, hard to get them as they sell out quickly in the morning, but they're really nice. cncplyr (talk) 12:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)