Talk:Moravian Church

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christianity
Christianity Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments

Contents

[edit] Name in German: BrüdergemeiNE, no "D"

Please note that in German the name of the Moravian Church is the Herrnhuter Brüdergemeine with no "d". The use of the archaic form Gemeine for Community or Congregation instead of the modern Gemeinde is restricted in German to the Moravian Church. There are actually religious groups in Württemberg Pietism called Brüdergemeinde:Korntal near Stuttgart and Wilhemsdorf near Lake Constance. Founded by the Pietists and patterned after the Herrnhut communities they are none the less not related to the Moravian Church at all. Again Brüdergemeine means the Moravian Church or one of its individual Congregations, Brüdergemeinde is an error when referring to Moravians and refers to the two Pietist groups in Württemberg. 70.242.159.29 (talk) 16:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)Pastor R

To-do list for Moravian Church: edit · history · watch · refresh

Here are some tasks you can do:


    [edit] Moravians are communists?

    I heard those Moravian communities also have a pretty unique system of society with a lot of communal property and people that can work just as much as they want to, can anyone tell something about that maybe? --62.251.90.73 00:25, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    Yeah, do tell. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 20:33, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)


    seeing that most Moravians in North America are upper class suburbanites, I doubt communist would be an accurate description. They are pretty communal, for the most part, but that's a completely different term.

    ...not upper class middle class. In Emmaus and Bethlehem, they live pretty much like everybody else. They are not communal at all, and have not been for well over 100 years. The church owns its sanctuaries and parsonages, no farms or factories. In the eighteenth and nineteenth century, the church owned the means of production, and all of the housing, you were assigned a job and a spot to live by the church leaders. So Communism would have been a good description, though very different form Marxism/Lenninism. No athiestic communist party, no gulags. They had no ideology of world domination, so you were free to leave if you wanted to. But you had to follow the rules, or you would be put out of the community.

    The Moravians were communal, not communist - yes. All land was owned by the church and it determined what was built (or who lived) on each lot. Outsiders ("strangers") were generally not allowed to freely live in a settlement, though exceptions were sometimes made.
    Young Moravian children (of both sexes) received mandatory education from the church.
    The congregation was split socially into "choirs" based on sex and status - Married People, Single Brothers, Single Sisters, Widowers, Widows, and Young children (the number and types varies a bit depending of the congregation, but this was generally the form). Some choirs - the Single Brothers and Single Sisters, notably - would eat, worship, and live separately. This social division even applied in death, as the choir system was used in God's Acre (the Moravian cemetary) to determine where you were buried. -- 24.148.249.55 20:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Hussites?

    The article needs work. The contemporary Moravian church owes more to The Franke/Spener school of German Pietism channeled through the charismatic Count Zinzendorf than it does to Huss. The article doesn't adhere to the usual historiography of the Moravian Church, and doesn't mention the church's groundbreaking very early (began in late 1730's) mission work to North America, Greenland, Sri Lanka, and so on. Also, something about the communal organization of early (1738-1760's) Moravian communities needs to be added. Also, how about getting their logo up here?

    yes, current Moravian church is more Pietistic than Hussite, but still I found description of the origin of the movement so lucking that is almost funny---it looks like Hus's movement peacefully grown up with some usual level of opposition:

    The movement gained royal support and a certain independence for a while, even spreading across the border into Poland, but was eventually forced to be subject to the governance of Rome.

    So, the beginning of the article should be IMHO either slightly extended, or at least link to Hussitism should be included.
    --Ceplm 13:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

    As a Moravian I agree, our roots are very deeply in the Lutheran Pietist soil, BUT The first Moravian exiles, i.e. exiles from the March of Moravia, to come to the estate of Zinzendorf with a view to reviving the old Bohemian Brethren's Church were the "Five Churchmen" who arrived in May, 1724; John Toeltschig and four of them all named David Nitschmann, one of whom would receive episcopal ordination in 1735 from the last surviving bishop of the old Unitas Fratrum. So they SAW themselves as continuing the traditions of the old Bohemian Brethren, even ecclesiastically, sometimes in spite of Zinzendorf who wanted to keep them within the Saxon Lutheran Church. But Zinzendorf himself in 1727 discovered the Ratio Disciplinae of John Amos Comenius, the Moravian bishop who preserved the episcopacy, and was amazed at how closely it resembled the Statutes of Herrnhut, the "Brotherly Agreement" adopted on 12 May 1727. The English Parliament recognized the Moravian Church as "An Ancient Protestant Episcopal CHurch" in 1749 on the basis of this relationship to the old Brethren's Church: the episcopacy and the church order.

    [edit] Historic episcopate

    Does the Moravian Church claim apostolic succecssion? Carolynparrishfan 23:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

    • In response to Merging Lovefeast into the Moravian Church arty- NO, the lovefeast may have originated therein, but is used by other denominations as well. No Brainer... except to the culturally insensative! FrankB 18:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
    • They do and they don't. They do claim that their episcopate is descended historically from the episcopates of other churches through the Waldensian (formerly Catholic) bishops who consecrated their first bishops in 1467. However, an unbroken succession of bishops from the time of the apostles doesn't have the same importance for Moravians that it does for, say, Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox. The episcopate is more a symbol of unity than a vessel of authority or authenticity. While bishops perform all ordinations, they don't hold the same authority as they do in other churches. They aren't elected to administer any particular territory, don't make assignments of clergy, and don't even make unilateral decisions about whom to ordain. They do have a duty to advise other pastors, but their advice isn't binding. Moravian bishops are more like senior, respected pastors than like Catholic bishops. WilliamBarrett 05:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Clean Need

    The article starting with references like: "The original attempt to found a Moravian community was in Georgia, but that attempt failed. The Moravians later found a home in Pennsylvania, where the colony provided some of the greatest religious freedom to be found in the world."

    Means to mind that this needs a lot of TLC and polish. I don't know if the use of Moravian Church is US-Centric, but the arty certainly implies that when starting this way. As such, I'm placing a Clean template HERE, so someone in the historical corp can check into this and apply some much needed rewriting and organization to the article so that it is arranged and flows more professionally.

    FrankB 19:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

    • I guess that without primary reading of your comments I seem to have performed some of the tasks you urge us to do. I notice now I have still left out the missionary activities of the Moravians. The clean needed-sign is still present, and it is up to you to see if the article is now fit for removal of this sign! Draconarius 23:57, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
      • I have now added information on the missionary activities. I suppose the cleanup called for has now more or less been performed~. Draconarius 07:53, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Pietism

    I think that we need a clearer break between the ancient Unitas Fratrum and the Renewed Church that Zinzendorf established on his estate in 1725-28. Zinzendorf's Moravians, who contemporary Moravians descend from, were distinctly Pietist. Z's grandmother was friends with Philip Jacob Spener, and Z himself attended August Hermann Francke's school at Halle.

    It would also be helpful to describe in a bit more detail Zinzendorf's role in the shaping of the Renewer Church after 1728, as he was in many ways was (and remains) the central figure in the history of this Chrisitian denomination.

    These notes on pietism make good sense to me. I wonder why you did not already put in some of these remarks. By the way, you did not sign your contribution. Do not be afraid to sign using the four tildes! Draconarius 21:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Cleaned and Well Done Draconarius!

    [edit] Moravians (religion)

    From User Talk:fabartus Hi,

    You posted a {{cleanup-date}} message on this article: Moravians (religion). If you feel that it has been satisfactorily cleaned, could you please remove the notice?

    Thanks, Andrewjuren 07:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

      • Sorry 'bout the delay removing the Clean - I was traveling near continually until this month. IMHO, esp. given the deficiency noted above, one of you guys was better placed to remove the tag... with a word to my talk as notification. But thanks for the courtesy.
    FrankB 16:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Does this sentence make sense to you? Some proofreading, then editing is required.

    "Until theat stawlwarts exanteosn New Yorh that September 1740 they led him through the unbroken wilderness to Shekomeko where a Moravian mission was established and the two Indians chiefs were converted to the Moravian faith."

    [edit] Moravians or Moravian Brethren

    Moravia is a region in today's Czech Republic. The term "Moravians" primarily means the inhabitants of that region. It seems rather odd to refer to the Moravian Brethern as "Moravians." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.83.78.91 (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

    The members of the Renewed Unitas Fratrum are called "Moravians" because the first exiles who came to Zinzendorf's estate from what is now the Czech Republic and founded Herrnhut were indeed German speaking folks from the March of Moravia. "Moravian" is a convenient nickname, like "Methodists" or "Quakers" that has subsequently become taken up by the members of the Church. In German we are called "Herrnhuters" from our Mother Congregation in Saxony, in English speaking countries we are called "Moravians" to distinguish us from the zillions of other "Brethren" denominations, but there is never any doubt among us that we are all "Brethren and Sisters". It is interesting that the earliest name for our fellowship back in 1457 was "Brethren and Sisters of the Law of Christ" Try putting that on your church bulletin board. Pastor R

    Here in Winston-Salem, they're mostly called "Moravians" though. I hardly ever hear "Moravian Brethern" unless its something official. Besides the churches are most commonly named "Something Moravian Church". It's all disabiguated, so I don't see a problem with it. --TinMan 04:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

    Same in Bethlehem and Emmaus. They are known as the Moravians.

    [edit] So, um, what do they believe?

    The article doesn't say a word that I could find about present-day Moravian beliefs, and only a little about historical ones. I know the Moravians are Christian, but aside from that, it would be sort of nice if an article on a religion told the reader what the religion's teachings were.

    Thanks for pointing this out. This omission was corrected by a Moravian clergyman, Pastor R.

    There is a request for citations in this section I supplied, but sadly, I'm just a poor country preacher and don't know how to do that. Can someone help me? The Barmen Declaration is cited in the 1957 "Ground of the Unity". The "Essentials" of th Faith are from JS Groenfeldt's "Becoming a Momember of the MOravian Chruch" and the statemenet about the Real Presence in the Holy COmmunion is from the "Easter Morning Litany", a statement of Faith, as well as the Small Catechism. Pastor R. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.9.30 (talk) 12:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Who was Kruger?

    He is mentioned once in the article in "Kruger's introduction of deviant Christological teaching was claimed by him to be the only teaching of the godhead that the Jews would ever accept". Could this be expanded, or replaced with a hyperlink? JBel 08:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

    Johann Sigismund Krüger was a brilliant lawyer who had been in service to Zinzendorf's in-laws in Ebersdorf in what is now Thuringia. In Zinzendorf's absence from Herrnhut in August 1726 he came to Herrnhut with a great show of holiness and zeal and briefly duped Christian David and others into following him. As Krüger's pronouncements became more and more extreme it was clear that he was unbalanced. He was removed to an asylum in Berlin where he subsequently died. J Taylor & Kenneth G Hamilton's History of the Moravian Church, pp.30-31 Pastor R.

    [edit] US Centric

    Good article, but much too US-Centric. There are 50,000 Moravians in the US, but 700,000 world wide, due to successful missions over the last 270 years. Check out their site, and follow the links to some of the international churches.

    [edit] Major edit

    Undertaken as an attempt to restructure the article so as to properly reflect the global reach of the church and its unique heritage. No existing information has been deleted but much has be added and the existing information has been reorganised and edited, with some of it being moved into sub-pages for detailed/specialist topics. In particular, all US specific details (see previous heading) have been moved to a new page American Provinces of the Moravian Church. An equivalent British article also now exists. Others will be added in due course. -Arb. 17:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Proposal to rename this article

    A proposal to rename this article has been made at Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Uncontroversial_proposals -Arb. 12:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC).

    [edit] Moravian arch redirects here. What is a Moravian arch?

    Moravian arch redirects here. What is a Moravian arch? Anthony Appleyard 13:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

    It's described in American_Provinces_of_the_Moravian_Church#Architecture. Have changed the redirect. -Arb. 11:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Fair use rationale for Image:MSeal2.jpg

    Image:MSeal2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

    Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

    If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

    BetacommandBot (talk) 12:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)