Talk:Monsignor

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This article needs to be reworked. The primary use of this title in English is as a class of persons, those of honorary prelates. Also, I don't think Msgrs. lose their title's anymore when the pope dies. There are other problems as well. I shall return!! (give me two or three days)--Samuel J. Howard 03:07, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

If you check the motu proprio Pontificalis domus, you will note that the honorary members of the papal household mentioned in this article lose their office at the sede vacante. Pmadrid 22:03, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Specifically Section 3, #3. The English translation furnished by the USCCB reads:

The term of office [of members of the Pontifical Family and the Pontifical Chapel] expires when the Apostolic See becomes vacant, though the obligation remains to be available, according to the functions of each member, for the normal carrying on of ordinary business and of the various ceremonies celebrated during this period, according to the pertinent instructions of the Sacred College.

As this was issued during Paul VI's pontificate (and I don't think John Paul II reformed this), it should still be in effect. Pmadrid 05:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"These members of the Pontifical Family hold their honor during the lifetime of the appointing Pope. Once a sede vacante occurs, they can no longer use the title monsignor."

I'm not so sure that they stop being Monsignors once the Pope passes away. The pastor of the church that I attend is a Monsignor who was appointed a "Prelate of Honor" by John Paul II. He continued to represent himself as a Monsignor during the sede vacante and continues to now with Benedict XVI. I think the regulation above bears closer examination to see if Monsignors actually lose their title during a sede vacante or if it's talking about officials in the Vatican.

JesseG 06:04, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

While it is true that certain ranks of Monsignor lost their title upon the death of the Pope, that practiced ceased with the revision of the Papal Household under Paul VI. In the very document that you quoted, notice it uses the term "office" and not title. A Monsignor is not an office but a title, and a title does not lapse with the death of the Pope.

Jbebeau 04:30, August 11, 2006 (UTC)

The laws concerning the Roman Curia were covered under the various Pastor bonus constitutions issued by Paul VI and John Paul II. The Pontifical Family and Chapel were covered under Pontificalis domus. These are seperate entities from the Roman Curia, though some members of the curia are also members of the family and chapel.

Though, you do have a point. Most people who are monsignors are still using the title. There are four possibilities as to why this happened:

• the pope granted dispensations from the law to these monsignors,
• the law has been revised (but we don't know where),
• Benedict re-appointed the monsignori, just as he did the Cardinal Secretary of State, or
• the monsignors are ignoring the law.

I really doubt it's the last one, so we should probably look into this. If you can contact the pastor of the church and ask if you could see the brief appointing him Prelate of Honor, perhaps we could get some insight. Pmadrid 05:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I added a statement about a Monsignor being able to request that his promotion not be made public, as I personally know of a case where this has happened. I am a member of the St. Raphael's Cathedral parish in Dubuque, Iowa. Priests who are assigned to the Cathedral parish as pastor are customarily raised to the rank of Monsignor. We recently learned that the pastor who had been there prior to the current pastor had been made a Monsignor by John Paul II back around 1983. But at the time he had requested that his being raised to that rank not be made public, and only a handful of people knew that he was a Monsignor. It remained that way for over 20 years until he publically revealed it a couple weeks ago. He said that he didn't consider himself truly worthy of the honor, and even after he made the announcement that he still wanted to be called Father.
JesseG 06:13, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Episcopalians

The article says at the start that some Episcopalian clergy use this title, but then doesn't go on to mention who or why. Can someone who knows fill it out? The Wednesday Island 21:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The article states the title is used in the Anglican church, but I've never encountered it in either the Anglican or Episcopal churches. We need a source for that statement or it should be removed from the article. Monsignor is a Roman Catholic church title like that of cardinal and is Italian in origin. It is an honorific title which means a priest who is given the title of monsignor isn't a bishop. It has nothing to do with Roman or Anglican levels of Holy Orders (deacon, priest, bishop).

The problem with this article is that it mixes pre-1968 (Pontificalis Domus) titles with post-1968 titles. Looks like someone just transferred information from the old Catholic Encyclopedia article which is fine but that information needs to be labelled as historical data and not current practice. Pontificalis Domus abolished many of the priviledges including the use of pontificals by Prothonotaries. --Highdesert 03:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Titular prothonotary

Apparently, Fr. Wach was a vicar general in the late 70s, and styled himself a monsignor then, well after the simplifications of Pope Paul VI. As a reference for this kind of prelate existing, it is not obvious is has anything to do with a special indult. Practically, probably few priests are appointed vicar general who are not already a monsignor of some form. Also, "pileo" is confusing - "floccis" seems like a biretta tuft, but another section of the text uses the word "bireta" "Pileo" should be a zuccheto but I wouldn't have any idea what "floccis" would be. Or could it mean some other kind of hat? Gimmetrow 02:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact, Wach was well known for continuing to wear a lot of stuff totally suppressed by Ut Sive Sollicite, including stuff that was exclusive to bishops even before 1969. Tassells, buckles, etc. See the link, where someone actually approached an official of the Roman congregations about his practice, and "got a good laugh." http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_TcOHiNhaIIJ:pub25.bravenet.com/forum/2134721637/fetch/444279/+vicar+general+protonotary+munere&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6 ...wach is apprently an, ahem, unreliable source of information about his own current titles and privileges. A floccis is a tuft of wool in Latin....no zucchettos have tufts.HarvardOxon 04:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, isn't that what I said about "floccis"? As for Fr. Wach, yes, I am discovering some issues. If something is "durante munere" there is no privilege for being that someting emeritis. He apparently was ordained by John Paul II, which seems to give some privileges independent of this monsignor thing. But he should be governed by whatever rules were in place at the time of his appointment(s). Monsignors appointed before 1968, for instance, retained some of the privileges after 1968. Gimmetrow 13:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"Monsignors appointed before 1968, for instance, retained some of the privileges after 1968." That is also my understanding - a PA created prior to 1968 could still enjoy the use of pontificals.--Highdesert 16:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abbreviations

In French (Canadian French, at least) when the last letter of an abbreviation matches the last letter of the word, you do not put a period afterwards. Thus, the "Mgr" abbreviation is rendered Mgr Jones (not Mgr. Jones). I'll correct this in the article, but it seems likely that well-meaning people will put the period back in... -- Mecandes (talk) 14:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)