Talk:Mono (software)

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[edit] mono

Ground rules: The purpose of talk pages is to facilitate discussion. This can only happen if people show some minimal courtesy, including treating each other with civility and respecting each other's opinions. Truly exceptional circumstances aside, nobody should need to make any substantive edits to another user's comments. Removal of comments, bad-faith editing, incivility, trolling, etc. will not be tolerated. Ignore these rules at your own peril. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 05:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no section on the critisizms of the Mono framework? Not just the patents but complaints from the MS camp about poor implimentation. I know there are such complaints, but I don't code so I cant talk!

[edit] Proprietary open source

The term "proprietary open source" exists, for example it can be meet in[1]. It is true I'm working on the problem and publishing articles for science conferences. For example in have written article [2] (in Russian, so you will need to translate to read it) about the problem of 'proprietary open source'. And the article was written before I knew that DotGNU exists.[krokas]

You could have seen my name on the GPE Palmtop Environment (of which I'm really a developer and really have cvs commit access), Allegro, Debian or Mono communities irc channels. The fact of being on a logged irc channel of a Free Sofware/Open Source project doesn't make automagically someone a developer of the project. This is non-sense and has nothing to do with the free open source development practice. I don't even have a commit access to the DotGNU project cvs. Although I really have used the PNET engine for my project, the DotGNU community has helped me and is very friendly. [krokas]

It is debatable whether the author of the first article does even have a point. He talks about GNU/Linux distributions and those having an "owner" in the context of Novell's acquisition of SUSE. But Novell did not acquire free software, it acquired a process and a team. Which makes the claim that the "proprietary open source" expression exists more doubtful. Also the article fails to realize one thing: all code produced is owned by someone unless explicitly left on the public domain (and GPL and LGPL software copyright is owned by the contributors to a given piece of code).
The second reference to the term "proprietary open source" comes from Bruce Perens in this article. And he uses it in a different context: support contracts for open source software (enterprise editions of software that people have to pay subscriptions to) and is no way related to Mono's open source nature.
The page that you reference is a page that you created in November and whose only two links in the whole Wikipedia were the Mono page and the .NET Framework page when refering to Mono.
There is a perfectly valid term that is used in the industry to refer to the practice that you refer to, and this is Dual license (see the page, it has various examples).
If you reach concensus with the projects mentioned in the Dual license page that they should be refered to as "proprietary open source" instead of dual licensed, you might have a point, but today you have singled out Mono for this label.


User:85.140.83.108 reintroduced the "proprietary open source" expression again.

So I did a little bit of research. He created a page with the expression "proprietary open source" on November 20, an expression which is not only an oxymoron, but is intended to hurt Mono's image by adding a negative connocation to it. The sole purpose of the page was to associate it with Mono, as can be seen by the fact that the only two pages that linked to it (up to January 19th 2006) were the Mono page and the .NET page when referencing Mono.

The IP for 83.237.108.102 and 85.140.83.108 belong to the same person, he goes by the nickname "krokas" on irc (this can be found by googling for his ip addresses) and he is involved in the development of a competing project (dotgnu). Krokas has used the expression "proprietary open source" a number of times on their irc channel. The only other mention of the term "proprietary open source" on the web has a different connotation and was used by Bruce Perens when refering to the subscription and support models that are provided to customers purchasing the software (and is in no way related to the actual contents of the actual page Mr Krokas created).

This practice Mr Krokas dislikes so much is often refered as Dual license, and the Wikipedia article on the subject is not politicized by the desire to promote one project over another.

Other projects that have commercial backing and require copyright assignment have not received the continuous flood of edits from Mr Krokas: OpenOffice, MySQL, Qt, Berkeley DB and other projects that use dual licensing to fund the open source development (The page Dual license has more projects).

For User:83.237.108.102: please stop this edit war; let's discuss here or in my talk page, please. No, Mono is definitely not proprietary, even if its development is leaded by a commercial company. You can say that it's commercial free software since it's presumably written (also) for a profit, but its license makes it inequivocably free sofware and open source. For another example of commercial free software I invite you to see GNAT; also many developers of GCC are paid, but this doesn't make the compiler proprietary. The same holds for many RedHat tools. --positron 13:43, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

User:83.237.108.102 doesn't seem to answer, so I'll do that instead. Mono's licensening FAQ (http://mono-project.com/FAQ:_Licensing) says:
"When a developer contributes code to the C# compiler or the Mono runtime engine, we require that the author grants Novell the right to relicense his/her contribution under other licensing terms.
This allows Novell to re-distribute the Mono source code to parties that might not want to use the GPL or LGPL versions of the code.
Particularly embedded system vendors obtain grants to the Mono runtime engine and modify it for their own purposes without having to release those changes back. "
Mono is commercial, yes. Mono is open source, yes. BUT Novell can decide to give you a version of Mono where you do not need to distribute the changes back (Which probably cost some $) . For me that sounds like you can get a proprietary version of Mono. - David Björklund (talk) 01:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

The project can be either open source or not. If it is released under the open source license (GPL, LGPL and so on), it is the open source project, even if written by the devil himself. If there are any additional restrictions, or the license is specific, it probably is not. I downloaded the Mono sources, they contain the file Copying.lib with the text of LGPL. To be completely sure, it would be good to check if it builds. Novell is doing something very strange by not saying nothing direct about the license in the main homepage, but there is unlinked [3] that states all licenses are open source. Audriusa

Changed text so that it now mention the licensing of all different parts of Mono. There are quite a lot of open source projects that are, more or less, only driven by one company. The proprietary open source nature about Mono is because it's availible both under open source licenses and a proprietary.- David Björklund (talk) 13:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Portable.NET project: patents and licensing.

Hi User:83.237.60.214. I reverted your edits (twice) about Portable.NET and the patents and licensing. Mono could have problems with licensing and patents, but to this day - nothing has happend. Also, the article has a section discussing the patents and licensing.

Your addition is an opinion more than facts. - David Björklund (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi David Björklund. "Mono could have problems with licensing and patents, but to this day - nothing has happend." Doesn't that sound like a problem with licensing and patents? I think this should be said in a way or another. As the Portable .NET project is developed it a way that it doesn't have those problems at all - then it makes a difference? And then there is the part about why patents it is not a problem for Mono, doesn't this point that the licensing and patents are actually a problem for Mono development?
No. That sounds like they could have problems with licensing and patents - not that they have problems. Also I'd like to know how why (some sources) Portable.NET won't have any problems at all - it cover system forms, one of the problematic parts.- David Björklund (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I think there is not wether Portable.NET or Mono "could" have problems, the question is which project is using a license that makes IP claims an actual problem. I have emailed a Portable.NET developer, he answered me quiet quickly in contrast to what I could think as they work on the project in they free time.
"In the early days, mono's class library was still LGPL, it was then changed to the MIT X11 license and mono leads announced that, if Microsoft ever wants them to buy an IP license, they will do so[1] and *that* is the difference. Portable.NET is completly GPL(+linking exception)/LGPL, thus, even if the copyright holders ("Southern Storm Software, Pty Ltd" and the "Free Software Foundation") wanted to buy such a license, the (L)GPL(+linking exception) would not allow this. If you contribute code to mono's class library and assign the copyright to Novell, it is only free as long as Novell wants it to be free (if Microsoft claims IP on that implementation Novell announced to buy it, thus, turning your contributed code into proprietary software because the MIT X11 allows such action). It's not that the MIT X11 is a bad license, it's just that the LGPL would be a much better choice for a free software project that also wants to *remain free* in the future. With "MIT X11" licensed libraries it is possible for a proprietary software company to take a library (which was jointly developed by many companies and individuals), change it, and consider the modified version their proprietary library which they license only under restrictive conditions. This means that in the long run it could happen that contributions to Mono's class library (which is licensed under the MIT X11 license) might actually help proprietary software companies to compete successfully against Free Software, like DotGNU Portable.NET.
[1] http://lists.ximian.com/archives/public/mono-list/2003-October/016292.html "
Well, what is your opinion? Should we change the text to show that the project gives a lot of attention to the patents/licensing problems, shouldn't we?
The issue is a practical one. If a piece of code is found to infringe a patent it is up to the patent holder to set the terms and the rules for the use of his invention. So it is a primary directive of the Mono effort to abide by the law and if we are forced through a legal ruling to remove the code, we will remove the code. Such a ruling would also affect Portable.NET (and the same theoretical problem happens with all software: if you infringe on someone else's code, you must abide by their rules; if this is free software you would have to stop distribution of the infringing code no matter what license you picked).
If the Mono code is found to infringe on a patent, our intention is to negotiate with the patent holder, and if the terms are right, we could make the code that uses the patented invention available to those willing to abide by the terms impossed by the patent holder. The actual requirements would depend on the patent holder and the rules he wants to enforce. This means that Mono would have two editions: one that is completely free and does not infringe any code (removing the infringing code) and another edition that has the patented code available licensed under whatever terms the patent holder might impose on us. Open source/free software developers could continue to use Mono, without the infringing parts.
The difference is that Mono is in a position of offering two editions if we are ever forced to go down that path. Portable.NET on the other hand would be limited to remove the features and there would be no option to users of the system, even if they are willing to pay or license the patent, to make use of the software. This is detailed in the GPL section 7:
If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
The steps that Mono took were taken precisely to avoid that problem: if we are found to be infringing, we will have to remove the code, but we are still allowed to make an edition that licenses the patents to those users and customers that need it. A GPL or LGPL implementation means that we would have to cut the option without being able to offer any remedial steps to any customers.
The quoted text is also missing a point: if Mono's code were at any point to become proprietary, anyone could continue developing the open source edition. This is the same situation that exists today with BSD or X11. If someone makes a proprietary version that does not stop anyone from maintaining the already existing open source code. Today people take pieces of Mono code and stick it into their projects, this is very common, as our license is very lax and they do not have to worry about infringing the GPL or the LGPL. They are allowed to do so. The fact that many people borrow Mono code and include it with their projects does not mean that Mono has to stop, we continue to develop code in the open, and we continue to release it as free software.- User:Miguel.de.Icaza
Well, Microsoft's position appears to be that Mono is an unlicensed attempt to reverse-engineer .NET and since Mono aligns direct with Microsoft's own best key-tech interests, the risk any user may went into cause of the license and patent issues is still there.

[edit] Edits from DotGnu advocates.

Over the past few days an intensive campaign from an anonymous user logging in from a variety of 83.237.* IP addresses has engaged in the following activities:

  • The user has engaged on a mission to label Mono as "proprietary open source". He created a page for this oxymoron, and then linked the Mono article and the reference to Mono on the .NET article to it.
  • Mono is dual licensed software available under commercial and open source terms which bothers him.
  • He refuses to discuss on the talk page, despite the fact that the article text actually has a number of notices placed by another editor requesting that he engages in a discussion in the talk pages.
  • Instead of discussing on the talk pages, he resorted to removing my comments from the talk pages where I address this issue.
  • He re-introuces the expression or deletes my comments on the talk page using the "Restore objective information".
  • We know he reads the discussion page, because he edited the page and removed things he did not like, but refuses to discuss his edits.

The user is associated with a competing project to Mono and has decided to promote the agenda of the competing project on the Wikipedia.

Maybe it is time to call for arbitration. --User:Miguel.de.Icaza


I concur. scot 03:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that it's time for Arbitration, if that's what you meant. The way forward is to discuss differences in a civil, constructive manner here on this talk page. I've explained the ground rules at the top of this page. In addition, keep the other applicable policies of Wikipedia in mind: discuss proposed changes, cite sources, etc. The ground rules will be enforced vigorously; the actual contents of the article are up to you guys to sort out by working towards a consensus. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 06:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Behavior of user Miguel.de.Icaza.

I have requested help from the Wikipedia admins in dealing with the deletion of discussion on the Mono talk page, and his changes to the main page.

Not sure the title of this section is as intended. In any case, please stop posting to the administrators' notice board. Discuss your differences here instead: this page is being actively monitored. Remember that you can (and should) sign your posts with ~~~~. Thanks, --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
To users MarkSweep and User:Miguel.de.Icaza from the Wikipedia Verifiability Policy [4]:"...Articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all differing views on a subject, factually and objectively, in an order which is agreeable to a common consensus..." [krokas]

[edit] History section

User Krokas has decided that the background history on the beginning of the project is not worth having in the "History" section because it is not appropriate there.

I did not add that section, but it feels that the history of the project has a spot on the History section. His comments. The actual comment for the removal of the history is:

Removed info about user Miguel.de.Icaza as it doesn't sound appropriated in the context.

Miguel.de.Icaza

Obviously there is some disagreement about the contents of the history section. The way to resolve this is, first, to recognize that there is disagreement and to stop reverting. Insisting that one version is right and another is wrong is not productive. If there are good arguments for one version or another, state them here on this discussion page and work toward a consensus. My own feeling is that a history section can't hurt. In fact, there is ample precedent for including a discussion of a platform's history (see e.g. Java programming language) to the extent that it is relevant. But that's not up to me to decide — you all will have to work that out yourselves, using the cutting-edge techniques of Reasoned Debate and Civilized Discourse. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 06:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The History sections remains, he just removed the early history and left a paragraph that does not even flow. The reason given to remove the text was this:
Removed info about user Miguel.de.Icaza as it doesn't sound appropriated in the context. Kesla, do you understand the Miguel de Icaza just exploits you? At least can you think about this :(
Am interested in finding what is not appropriate about it, and what has "exploitation" got to do with this? It is telling to read the changes he did for his project here and the various previous versions. Am not going to bother correcting the statements there, but I find it useful to understand his motivations editing this page - Miguel.de.Icaza 14:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it's up to 83.237/16 to explain on what grounds he objects to the passages in the history section which he removed. "Not appropriate" is not a sufficient explanation. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 17:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Essentially Miguel, a good way forward is that if you can find good documentable evidence froma reliable source supporting the material, then it is reasonable to include it in the article. Then anyone wishing to remove it would have to provide legitimate reasons to remove it which would typically require a more authoritative source or a consensus among a number of editors. But I agree with Mark, reverts are bad, don't do them even if you feel your position is right. Justify it and the truth will prevail. If 83.237 refuses to justify his position after being clearly asked such as now, it is reasonable for other editors to revert his/her edits, but it's still better if that's not you doing the reverting. I'll let Mark mediate because he's doing a good job and specifically state that that material looks like it makes sense to go back into the history section and 83.237's reasoning is weak to remove it, but it should also cite it's sources so it's beyond reproach. If enough others agree, it would represent a consensus against 83.237's edits. - Taxman Talk 18:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking at [5] and specifically the sample chapter [6], which includes a brief history of Mono (page 7; page 9 of the PDF file). This includes a discussion of GNOME, Ximian, etc. and the role MdI played in these ventures. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
That pretty much locks it up for me. Any other sources to add to that would be great. Although I generally think Miguel should avoid writing about himself, that material supports at the least including the material that was removed by 83.237. - Taxman Talk 22:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Just to be clear. I wrote the history-section, not de Icaza. I used this source for this (it's in the reference section on the main page). I was not aware of any other sources when I wrote it (even thought I searched for it) and the mentioned book seem to be a good complement. - David Björklund (talk) 19:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
User David Björklund says "...i wrote the history-section, not de Icaza. I used this source for this (it's in the reference section on the main page)..." Yes, it just proves another time that I was right to edit the history section. An internet maillist cannot be considered as a source of verifiable information [7]:
"...Wikipedia should only publish material that is verifiable and is not original research. One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, teories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher..." I will ask the Wikipedia administration to remove the editing possibility to user David Björklund untill the time he shows a possibility to follow the Wikipedia Policies and guidelines. [krokas]
The source of the information for the Mono wikipedia page that is refered is [8] and specifically the sample chapter [9] which only says that Miguel de Icaza has really started the Mono project. I ask that all the extra information that was added to the history section is removed. Until other sources of verifiable information than maillist are found please remove too the sections "Mono and Microsoft's patents" and "Software developed with Mono". Thanks. [krokas]
Well, as the creator of Mono, I can attest that the history as written by David Björklund is correct; It lacks details, there is a lot more that can be said, but it is correct. I was researching .NET in december 2000 here. In February 7th, I asked for the metadata information on the same list. I have corrected the sentence "Around Jan" to be more precise: "On February"
Considering that Mono is a project that has been developed in the open and in the internet, all of the sources of information will lead back to either mailing list archives, or the original people involved in it, like me.
As for actual demonstrations of the C# compiler, I showed it to a few people at the GUADEC conference in Denmark at the time - Miguel.de.Icaza 23:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I have to say that the understanding of user krokas of the policies cited seems way off the mark. Such as WP:RS states Get close to the source. Well, when it comes to some item of software, you don't get much closer to the source than an official mailing list of the company or organization that created the software and which is inhabitted by the developers of same. I can't imagine trying to write about the Linux kernel while being told I could not use the kernel mailing list as a source and could not cite Linus Torvalds. That flat makes no sense to me.
Of course, WP:RS also discusses evaluating sources. Miguel.de.Icaza and others directly involved in the project will, of course, have a bias. It's their "baby." So, yeah, a certain amount of caution is indicated. If, say, de Icaza proclaims Mono the best thing since sliced bread, that's not a terribly authoritative statement eh? Everybody thinks their baby is the best looking and smartest. <G>
The above policy also comments: "Were they actually there? Be careful to distinguish between descriptions of events by eyewitnesses and by commentators. The former are primary sources; the latter secondary. Both can be reliable." Well, the developers of the software were certainly "actually there." They are, point of fact, primary sources. The big question is the citation. Certainly a "citation" that amounts to someone claiming to be (sorry to pick on you here but...) Miguel.de.Icaza in an alt.* heirarchy newsgroup is to violate WP:RS. There is, simply put, no good way to verify Usenet posts. They are too easily forged. Same for some random bulletin board. But a mailing list that orginates with Ximian (or Novell now is it?) is not a Usenet newsgroup nor some webby bulletin board. There is verifiability. You can check with the company to determine that the mailing list does, indeed, originate with them and is, indeed, used by their people. You can actually call people at the company and ask "did you write that?" This is a whole other critter than a Usenet post. For that matter, if we doubt that Miguel.de.Icaza is the real Miguel de Icaza, I bet we could call his office and ask "are you really on the Wikipedia?"
I'm sorry but as so much software these days are creatures of the Internet and the creators are heavy users of email and other such online systems of communication to get their work done, demanding every single source be in print is a tad absurd. It would also make the Wikipedia itself rather pointless--notice it ain't in print?. Mark K. Bilbo 17:27, 26 January 2006 (UTC) (This unsolicited commentary and advice brought to you by the letter Q and the number 3F)

[edit] Page title: Mono (development platform)

I believe that to conform to what has become conventional on Wikipedia, part of the title of this page should be in parentheses, as the article refers to "Mono" in the first line rather than the longer version given in the title.

Samsara (talk • contribs) 17:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe "Mono (software)" meets naming guidelines better. I'm gonna move it to that if I can. --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 00:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Framework Architecture

Hmmmm.... before this was basically a full duplicate of the section at DotGNU or vice versa. If you take a look at that page I massively trimmed the .net-specific stuff out of there.... I'm wondering which way people prefer? RN 00:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Primate = Mono ??

LAMP (software bundle) gives the P in the acronym as referring to "Perl, PHP, Python, and/or (rarely) Primate, scripting/programming languages." -- "Primate" directs to this article, Mono (software), in which the word "Primate" does not occur. I assume that this is not an error, but neither is it helpful for the uninitiated. Let's include a note of explanation or fix it if wrong. -- Writtenonsand 22:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FSF threatening to pull sales rights

The statement: "On February 2007, the Free Software Foundation announced that it is reviewing Novell's right to sell Linux versions, and even may ban Novell from selling Linux, because of this agreement [1] [7]"

Is extremely misleading. The source report in Reuters appears to have quoted Eben Moglen out-of-context. This statement should be pulled I think. Reference: Eben Moglen's rebuttal of the Reuters article. 194.151.95.22 12:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

More about this misquote be found on the talk page for Novell and there is this ars technica article. 138.202.246.27 10:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Future content

I've put this headline for questions that can be added to the article when answered.
Does anyone know if a trie is implemented in the text interning for the Mono CLR? DotnetCarpenter 07:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Mono project logo.svg

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BetacommandBot 07:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] version 1.2.5.2 for windows are available, pls fix it

version 1.2.5.2 for windows are available, pls fix it --195.113.141.213 09:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] purpose

excuse me for being a noob, but is this .net framework supposed to be aimed at allowing windows programs to be run in linux w/ out use of apps like wine? etc... --AlexOvShaolin 20:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Since Mono/C# programs compiled under Linux *appear* to be Windows programs, I suppose that is a valid characterization. I must say, I was astonished to find, on installing Gnome-Subedit, that it *appeared* to be a Windows executable with associated .dll files. It may be that the bytecode packaging for Mono/C# thingy's just LOOKS like a Windows program. It is amusing that it contains the canonical header text about not being runnable in DOS mode! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 22:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)