Talk:Monkey/Archive 2

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[edit] Preposterous! yea right

Monkeys have tails. The two groups of tailed primates are more closely related than they are to tail-less apes. The article says otherwise. It is wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.122.208.51 (talk • contribs) .

You are mistaken. The Old World monkeys are more closely related to the apes than either of those group are to the New World monkeys. So says the entire scientific community. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

This should be cleared up even more in that monkey is not a natural label, or all apes, included humans are monkeys (which is the method I use) 198.133.139.5 14:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC) Martin

There are three groups of simians: New World monkeys, Old World monkeys, and apes. Of the three, the Old World monkeys and the apes are more closely related to each other than either is to the New World monkeys. There are no natural labels, they are all assigned by humans. "Monkey" is not a monophyletic grouping of species, but "simian" is. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classification error!

It seems that a rather important primate was forgotten in the classification: homo sapiens. I don't see any scientific reason not to mention this species here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.58.253.130 (talk • contribs) .

They are not forgotten. They are on the appropriate pages. "Monkey" isn't one of them. Try looking at "ape". - UtherSRG (talk) 18:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Humans belong in the ape classification which is in the article as being a monkey. A human is an ape, which is a monkey therefore a human is a monkey. (speaking cladisticly) 11:06 1 March 2007 (MRC)

Apes are not monkeys. Apes are simians. Monkeys are simians, but are not apes. Humans are apes and not monkeys.

tarsiers

  simians  

New World monkeys



Old World monkeys


apes




Where in the article do you see apes as monkeys? - UtherSRG (talk) 17:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Bold textAnd if you look at that chart you just put up, you can notice that apes are more closely related to Old World monkeys than Old World Monkeys are to New World Monkeys. Since they are both Monkeys, apes must be monkeys.Bold text Honestly, there are only 3 solutions to this problem. 1. admit apes are monkeys (easiest and most perfered method). 2. get rid of the word monkey (much harder to do because it is such an established word in the English language). 3. Don't use the word monkey, but use New World Monkey and Old World Monkey, never using monkey alone (even harder because adds more words and see number 2.) 198.133.139.5 11:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Close, but no cigar. Apes & monkeys are simians. "Monkeys" refers to the two branches New World and Old World monkeys. It is fine to use the word "monkey" when talking casually, or when context implies one of the two groupings ("the monkeys in Asia", "monkey I saw on my trip to Brazil", etc). - UtherSRG (talk) 12:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I also think that if monkey contains new world monkeys, and old world monkeys, it should contain the apes (and us) too. It's much more natural (considering cladistics). I can only find two cons: 1) it is not used this way in common speech 2) PRIDE! ("No matter what, I am NOT a monkey.") Well, I think neither of them is logical. Especially the (I think more dominant) second. Adam Mihalyi 01:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

We should be discussing sources, not the merits of cladistics. Here's what seems to be a reputable, third-party source that says monkeys are "An adaptive or evolutionary grade among the primates, represented by members of two of the three modern anthropoid superfamilies": McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology, quoted by answers.com. --Allen 02:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
You are right. This is not an appropriate place for monkey-meaning-reforms ;) Anyway, I hope I will find a reliable source, what says that apes are monkeys too :P (I trust to uni-level biology books.) Adam Mihalyi 03:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Adam, "monkey" doesn't "contain" the two groups of monkeys. This is where your logic is wrong. This is why you think that apes are monkeys. "Simian" contains monkeys and apes. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, this is new for me. Then what does monkey contain? Are there ANY monkeys in the world? :) And if not all new world monkeys, and old world monkeys are monkeys, then why the whole groups are called "monkeys" in both cases? Damn... this is a very problematic category... Adam Mihalyi 16:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
"Monkey" doesn't contain anything on its own. It is a term used to refer to the species that are in two groups, whose relationship connects them with the apes. That connection (both groups of monkeys plus the apes) is the clade Simiiformes - the simians. This is not problematic at all. You keep trying to assert that the term "monkey" must refer to something cladistic and monophyletic. It doesn't. It's just a common English word that refers to various species. Those species happen to be able to be placed in two monophyletic clades, the Old World monkeys in superfamily Cercopithecoidea, and the New World monkeys in the parvorder Platyrrhini.
Anyway, talk pages are not for discussing the subject but for discussing improving the article. Is there something you think the article need improvement about? (Your lack of understanding of the subject not withstanding.) - UtherSRG (talk) 16:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there is something I think the article needs improvement about. In fact, there are more things ;) First of all, you should make this subject much more clear in it. You should for example write the same things you've just written to me into the article (in a more clear way). It should be emphasized that New World monkeys, and Old World monkeys ARE monkeys, but apes are not. And that this is THEREFORE not a natural or scientific category, because of their real relationship... etc. Maybe if you make this clearer, there won't be so much controversy.
Maybe it should be suggested to check out simians for a more natural category.
It could be noted, that some people use the word monkey referring to apes too. (Well, this is not really important, just an idea. But I still think that this usage would be more logical.)
And about the other parts of the article... well... I agree with Jim68000 (This page is crap -- 22:10, 24 January 2007). It should contain more valuable info in a more logical categorization. And, of course, irrelevant (or at least not too significant) parts should be abridged.
Anyway, thx for your patience, explanation. Adam Mihalyi 19:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This page is crap

How do I flag it up for a major rewrite? (I'd try, but I think a primatologist should get involved) It's the sort of niff-naff and trivia that devalues the entire Wikipedia project: there are 593 words on what monkeys actually are, followed by a strange section on monkeys as pets (552 words), some stuff about animal testing (complete with carefully selected emotive picture) and a completely random section on the eating of monkeys which could be an interesting discussion on bushmeat, but instead tells us that the chines don't eat monkey brains, Islamic dietary laws forbid monkey-eating and aids may have been transmitted to humans by eating monkeys (unless the monkeys were eaten raw this seems unlikely.)

After that we have the bane of wikipedia: the trivia section, here disguised as "monkeys in literature". The extent of "monkeys in literature" appears to be that a monkey is a character in a chinese novel, Hanuman is a monkey-like Hindu god (true, but is that literature?). Monkey from the TV series Monkey was a monkey (deliberate repition to indicate the redundancy of the statement, as was Curious George). The triviaists favourite Terry Pratchett makes an appearance. And then there is a misplaced statement about mandrills. And something about the chinese zodiac.


The links section is equally poor (two antivivisection sites, a thing about pet monkeys and a helping hands site). The only two sourced statements are a food article in the guardian claiming that chinese people don't appear to eat monkey brains and a biblical vegetarian site is used for a source for the SIV-HIV claim.

Proposed restructure:

Monkeys and their relationship to people is a valid topic, but is the keeping of pets the most important element?


 1.0 Characteristics
 2.0 Name
 3.0 Classification
 4.0 Monkeys and humans
 4.1 Monkeys in science (present NPOV of animal testing) 
    4.1.1 Theories of relationship between SIV/HIV and possible transmission (may simply link to relevant page)
 4.2 As food (must discuss bushmeat or the article is pointless)
 4.3 As Pets

The trivialists will have to start their own page for "Monkeys in Popular Culture" - there's an argument for discussing monkeys and religion say, but making this a list of monkeys in books and films is the sort f thing that Wikipedia can do without

If you want to see what I mean about the difference between an uncontrolled random page like monkey compare with the entry for ape

Jim68000 22:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


    I agree, one of the worst Wikipedia pages I have seen. Mwinog2777 05:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. In response to Jim68000's initial question, to flag it for rewrite I would add both the templates { { cleanup-rewrite } } and { { Expert-subject|Primates } } to the top of the article. I'd do it myself, but I apparently haven't had my account long enough. Bloody semi-protection policy. Gitman 21:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, templates have been added. Gitman 18:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree that this page is unworthy of Wikipedia. Such an important family of biological organisms deserves a good strong article not one that begins lecturing people about religion. My 12 year old came across this when doing an essay and even she flagged it as incomplete and tending to go off in needless tangents. Why on earth does such drivel merit the special treatement of being exempt from editing. The whole entry should be trashed and someone else start from scratch.

It's protected because it gets vandalized often. Instead of complaining, work on possible edits on the talk page, and I or another admin will make the change or unprotect it. BTW: "monkey" isn't a biological family. It's two related groups containing many families. That information is in the very first paragraph of the article. If you want good information, go to those articles. - UtherSRG (talk) 19:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why is there a picture of a gorilla?

Ok, I'm no biologist, but...last time I checked, a gorilla was a member of the ape family. It is certainly NOT a monkey. Sure, monkeys and apes are related. But, a gorilla is not a monkey. Perhaps the picture should be removed.24.111.137.236 01:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)anonymous

There should not be. I've reverted this error, again. - UtherSRG (talk) 02:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Apes are a type of monkey. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gottoupload (talk • contribs) 21:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
As others have pointed out, to the man on the street, apes are just a monkey without a tail. The article even says there's no meaningful scientific definition of a monkey. It's a very rough and ready category of non-human primates Gottoupload
And as the anon demonstrated, you are wrong. - UtherSRG (talk) 23:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't care about the phuture... i care about the fture and PRESENT. bohandez 19:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC) and yes. You are 'controlers' ... behave urselves :) bohandez 19:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plural of Monkey

Are there two spellings for the plural of monkey or is the word "monkies" just plain wrong? If it is wrong, then why does it redirect to this page if it's a word that doesn't even exist? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/74.115.48.182 (talk • contribs).

"Monkies" is just plain wrong, but it is a common enough misspelling that it warrants a redirct, at least in someone's mind. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think one of the weaknesses of Wikipedia is that misspellings are not redirected often enough. Think about Google, with their "did you mean _____?" This is an extremely helpful, and timesaving feature which in no way lends validity to an incorrect spelling. When Wikipedia redirects, it is obvious to the reader based on the actual article title and the words "redirected from ____". I think information should be easy to find, whether or not someone can spell "premillennialism", "monkeys", or "hominid" correctly. When someone types "monkies", isn't his or her intention obvious? Why penalize users for "just plain wrong" spelling by forcing them to waste their time trying to find the correct spelling before viewing an article? Don't be so uppity and peddantik. Diego Gravez 01:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monkey as pets

This article appears to be written by a monkey owner or pet dealer, as it barely covers the biological aspects of the species, then they mildly warn of physical dangers of owning a monkey, followed by a blurb of success stories. Then, at the end, someone added the word "opinionated" to a reference that talked about the negatives of monkey ownership, when this is the view of veterinarians throughout the U.S. and Europe. No mention is made of the health hazards that monkeys pose, being able to carry AIDS, hepatitis, plus alot of our common disease, such as measles, etc., let alone the public health threat that can happen with an ebola outbreak (see The Hot Zone, and those were monkeys in a quarantined facility!). I think this article is a travesty, and agree with the previous poster that it should be deleted and completely rewrote by someone who does not endorse monkeys as pets.

Thank you, John Edwards, DVM Audubon Center for the Research of Endangered Species New Orleans, LA

Given the concerns raised above, and since the section is entirely unreferenced and seemed to be unreasonably prominent in the article, I've moved the monkey as pets section here so it can be worked on (or disregarded) as appropriate. If we can develop something that looks good it can be moved back into the main body of the text. -- Siobhan Hansa 19:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monkeys as pets

[edit] Historical use as pets by Western Europeans

When the British first began to explore Africa, young monkeys were often captured to provide entertainment during long voyages. Some were later transferred to domestic zoos, and in fact many modern captive monkeys in the UK are descended from individuals captured during the Napoleonic and Victorian eras. Kent still to this day has the largest population of monkeys in the UK. According to legend, one of the early British captive monkeys was lost at sea and washed up ashore near Hartlepool, England, where it was mistaken for a Frenchman and hanged.[citation needed] The people of Hartlepool have since borne the nickname "monkey hangers."

[edit] Suitability as pets

An Indian monkey illustration in The Graphic, 1891, being depicted as a "Highway Robber" after having stolen food from a vendor.
An Indian monkey illustration in The Graphic, 1891, being depicted as a "Highway Robber" after having stolen food from a vendor.

Although they may appear to be friendly, keeping monkeys as pets can be very difficult. While baby monkeys are usually as easy to keep clean as a human infant (by diapering), monkeys that have reached puberty usually remove their diapers and cannot be toilet trained. They require constant supervision and mental stimulation. They usually require a large amount of attention. Monkeys cannot handle being away from their owners for long periods of time, such as family trips, due to their need of attention. Bored monkeys can become extremely destructive and may, for example, smear or throw their own feces. There often needs to be a lot of time set aside for cleaning up messes the monkey might make. Most adolescent monkeys begin to bite unpredictably and pinch adults and children. Any surgical means to stem this behavior (such as removing the teeth or fingertips of the monkey) is widely considered cruel, and it is usually difficult to find veterinarians who will carry out such procedures: even exotic-animal veterinarians may not be familiar with them. Monkeys eventually can become wild and difficult to control upon reaching adulthood. The monkeys may also become aggressive even to their owners. In some cases their behavior can change abruptly, making it hard for the owner to fully understand or control them.

Some people do report having long and rewarding relationships with monkeys. Monkeys are known to get attached to their first owner, so switching from one to another can be traumatic to the monkey and may aggravate behavioral problems. It is not easy for a monkey to get used to a new environment. Monkeys need to be placed in social areas. It is also expensive to care for a monkey — housing, food, and veterinary care can become very costly.

[edit] Legality as pets

In most large metropolitan areas in the U.S. it is illegal to keep monkeys as pets in the home; even in places where they are legal, a Department of Agriculture permit is usually required. Their legal status as pets varies in other countries. Permits may be issued to those who qualify in the caring of monkeys.

[edit] I don´t care about old & new world

I need simple info on monkeys and all this stuff is to wierd so make it easier for us non tec people all I want is monkeys in general!!!  :( - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.143.224 (talk • contribs).

Read carefully. Tehre is not much that can be said about monkeys, besides that they are small to medium sized simian primates. If you want to know more, look at the two more specific articles, Old World monkey and New World monkey. - UtherSRG (talk) 02:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

hi it's me again the answer you gave me was exactly what i din't want because i said no to new & old world monkeys so maybe i should go 2 another web site if u don't have the answer to what i want .... so who's with me, i am so not tec MAKE IT EASIER OR I WON'T USE THIS WEB ANY MORE MAYBE I'LL USE ASK.COM NOW!!!!! :( give me a simple answer or i'm gone WHO'S WITH ME!!!!

Learn proper grammar, please. --67.175.147.74 08:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] still don't want old & new world

who care's about new and old world monkeys i just want to know about normal monkeys in general PLEASE so don't give me the same answer again and by the way i want something simple to understand that states the 'need to know' facts.

KED

If you don't understand what the article says, you don't belong here. I'm sorry if I sound mean, but the article should give you plenty of information. --67.175.147.74 09:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] infobox

This article needs an infobox, like all the other animal articles have. Lεmσηflαsh(t)/(c) 18:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)