Talk:Mohyal

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
More information about this article... ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

[edit] Swami Sahajanand

Hello 220.225.244.42:

Swami Sahajanand and the famous poet Ramdhari Singh Dinkar actually belonged to the Bhumihar community. While that is considered a sister community of Mohyals in various aspects, it is still a distinct ethnic group of its own. Given that I am reverting some of your edits under the Famous Mohyals section.

Best regards, Hu114sp 14:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] They are Brahmin

Mohyal are Brahmin. There has never been a question that they are Brahmin.--ISKapoor 22:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello ISKapoor:

I am really appreciative of some of your other contributions to Wikipedia but regret to say that you were off the mark with some of your recent edits on the Mohyal page. I am sure if you research a bit about Mohyals you will yourself agree.

Your edits make the article quite Hindu centric. Mohyals as an ethnic group exists across religions; There are Hindu, Sikh and Muslim Mohyals. Within the Hindu Varna system, no one questions the classification as Brahmin- in fact supposedly rated at the "higher" end in the bunjahi caste hierarchy in West Punjab- and the article prior to your edits did not suggest otherwise either. However, I hope you agree that is not a reason for clubbing the entire community as a Brahmin group.

Whether we like it or not, the Shahmukhi script remains in use with Mohyals, including Hindu Mohyals living in India, and removing the "Mohyal" word written in that language also suggests an attempt to present the article from a purely Hindu perspective. Some of the more well known Urdu writers in India are in fact Mohyals- Jamna Das Akhtar, Kashmiri Lal Zakir etc.

Regarding customs- Indeed, Mohyal Hindus are usually passionate about maintaining their faith; it has only not manifested in the same outlook as with some other Hindu groups.

Unlike other Brahmin groups, Hindu Mohyals indeed have not had taboos against interacting with other communities. They were often clubbed with Pathans in the British Indian Army, especially in the Guides- something that would not be the case had they strictly followed customs of some other Brahmin groups. Among Hindus I think Mohyals are the only group where many families follow circumcision. The sacred thread popular with other Brahmins isn't worn either. Do you still think their customs aren't somewhat different than other Brahmin groups?

Given all that, I am reverting some of your edits, but will leave your request for citation in place and will be glad to research and provide that. I know that as a fact but am sure there will be sources from which I can validate.

With best regards,

Hu114sp 02:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ashamed to be a Brahmin?

There is no doubt whatsoever that Mohyals are Brahmin.

I am aware of the anti-Brahmanism that prevails in Punjab. Ever since the British supported tat-Khalsa movement started, there has been an attempt to ridicule and criticize Brahmins. Today ordinary Sikhs are no longer told that many of the individuals (see Chhibber)associated with the Gurus were Brahmin; while they make sure the Gangu the cook is referred to as Brahmin.

Every single work that Guru Gobind Singh wrote or supervised, has been declared by spurious by anti-Hindu Sikh authors. The Rahit Namas written by the companions of the Dasam Guru have been rejected because they have been written by Brahmins.

If you are a Mohyal, let me tell you, you have nothing to be ashamed of.

The Punjabi brahmins are the descendants of rishis who composed the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata and many other texts.

Have you read the autobiography of Guru Gobind Singhji? I recommend you read it.

--ISKapoor 17:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I have seen some Pakistanis who are well known to be descendants of the Rajputs, start claiming that they are actually descendants of Arab invaders.

But this is first time I have someone disavow Brahmin descent.--ISKapoor 17:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Certainly Not!

There is no question of any such shame or embarassment. On the contrary, all Hindu and even the Sikh Mohyals that I know do look up respectfully to the ancient Rishis who are regarded as the 7 clans' progenitors. Hindu Mohyals usually are passionately proud of their religious identity, way more than you probably imagine. And being a Brahmin is a part of that identity, while priesthood is not.

I think you are misinterpreting the bit on ostracism. The sole purpose of such actions was to maintain some core traditions followed by the community. The fact is that on more than one occassion, Mohyals have made a conscious decision to part with some of their members to sustain the practice of priesthood in areas where no other Hindu was available to do it. This was accompanied by a ritual excommunication only to preserve the core community tradition of not accepting charity. (Example- Dewan Hira Nand of Kabul, son of a high ranked Afghan General (Dewan Narain Das) and brother of a high ranked officer in British NWFP, who came forward to become a priest at an derelict Hindu shrine in Peshawar- at the price of his place in the Mohyal community.)

I fully agree that there is a lot of unfair Brahmin bashing in sections of Punjab, and actually that goes further back in time than you suggest. I even think that such undercurrents may have played some role in the past, in prodding Mohyals to adopt some customs that differentiated them from the priestly Brahmin- though I am certain there were other bigger factors as well. Hindu Mohyals' pride in their identity has been in fact been sustained in spite of such an adverse environment.

Contrary to your perception, I think that Mohyals, by their history of sacrifices, and by choosing to not have taboos of interaction with other communities, by choosing to have a tradition that emphasizes against religious bigotry, on hard work, refusal to accept charity and through some other values, have only helped showcase their Hindu and Brahmin side very positively in areas where even sustaining a non Muslim identity was difficult.

With best regards,

Hu114sp 21:16, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Are Gakhars Muslim Mohyals

A Revision as of 15:36, 13 August 2006 by ip 72.145.122.123 in the History secton of this article states that the Gakhars are one of the six clans of Mohyals that converted to Islam .....would one of the contributors to this article please shed more light on this aspect .What is the source of this information ?? Can somebody add to this and other related information or sources ...interestingly the Gakhars seem to ref to a clan history called the Kai Gohar nama written by a Mohyal as well ....please see the Gakhar page . I have myself been working on the clan history of the Gakhars and there is a lively discussion on the Gakhar talk page ...with regard to my refutations of the alluded history of the Gakhars that has been collated on the Gakhar page .Would appreciae a response .
Cheers
Intothefire (talk) 17:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello Intothefire,

I apologize for any confusion the edit may have caused, but it actually does not state that Gakhars are Muslim Mohyals. What it does say instead is that as per Mohyals' oral and written history, the Gakhars prior to their en-masse adoption of Islam were part of a larger endogamous group of 52 lineages- of which Mohyals were also a part.

Regarding other stuff- Mohyal folklore also mentions of Gakhars' reputation of being fierce fighters who always fought well under some Kings whose lineages Mohyals claim to share, and also of Gakhars being rulers at some stages in history. They are also remembered as people with fine traditions of chivalry and loyalty, qualities that Mohyals traditionally extol as well. There is not a whole lot more I know on Gakhars, but will be glad to share what Mohyal history says on any specific questions you might have- if I'm aware.

Best regards,

Hu114sp (talk) 02:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)