Talk:Mishnah

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[edit] added sentence

I added a sentence noting that the Oral Law is a companion to the Written Law, rather than derived from it, as the article notes that there is little basis in the scripture for the Mishna. GaelicWizard 01:54, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In the standard sense, it is not derived from it, but the Talmud spends a great deal of time showing how it could be. The Talmud (Chulin, 28:a) quotes Deu 12:21 as an example where the Written Law refers to the Oral Law. -- Chacham 20:32, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)

[edit] removed sentence

I removed the sentence claiming that the Talmud, unlike the Mishna, deals only with issues contemporary with its writings. Actually, the Babylonian Talmud (but not the Jerusalem Talmud) covers all the tractates of the Mishna dealing with sacrifices, and the Babylonian Talmud is considered the authoritative one. Danny

I wrote the section on commentaries today, without checking if there was any overlap with the rest of the article. Some smoothing out is probably inevitable. I also managed to miss out Pinhas Kehati; I'll write him up later... JFW | T@lk 21:59, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] pinhas kehati

As far as I'm aware, Pinhas Kehati was never an ordained Rabbi. While I can't meet the Wiki standards on verifiability, and am unwilling to jump into my first edit with something i can't show, I'm also certain that the title Rabbi has been a later addition. I believe that Kehati was a worker at Bank Mizrahi in Israel (which doesn't, of course, exclude him from having being ordained), and not a Rabbi as this page claims. I'm happy to make the edit, but want to test it out in the talk page first - any objections / suggestions? Ronch 07:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical study

I rewrote some of this section by User:RK. Unless I missed it, shouldn't we also quote Zacharias Fraenkel and the Darkei ha-Mishna?
I do object against the long list of references, as many of them are not directly quoted in the text. The article would be served by a small set of references (5-7), and (for example) mention of Danby's Oxford translation, as well as ArtScroll's Yad Avraham. JFW | T@lk 17:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The only reason I shoved in a huge list of references was that I suspected that this topic might grow lengthy, and be spun-off into a separate article. RK

I doubt this will happen. Would you awfully mind trimming some references, e.g. stick to the main publications of the main people you've quoted? I will see if I can get a good reference for Danby's translation. Yad Avraham comes in numerous volumes, and cannot be easily referenced. JFW | T@lk 19:34, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Okay, Herbert Danby actually has a Wikipedia page written up about him! Would you be so kind as to comment how we should categorise Zacharias Fraenkel? I think he belongs under the second category of historical Mishna schools. I also deleted all your references to Talmud historical study; however fascinating, this belongs under Talmud and not in the Mishna article. Please try to narrow down the remaining references a little bit more... JFW | T@lk 19:52, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

All your edits and revisions are fine by me. I am unsure of where Zacharias Fraenkel fits into all of this. Most of his work is available only in German. He did accept the idea that the Mishnah, as we have it today, has undergone later editorial accretions and smoothing. From the little I have read of his views on this issue, I would suspect that his views were similar to that of Lee Levine, David C. Kraemer and Robert Goldenberg. RK

I don't want to edit, in case I don't understand author's intent -- but I think there should be some editing to clarify when "Rabbi" is used to mean Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi.

[edit] The Structured Mishnah

I privately wrote and asked what text "The Stuctured Mishnah" is based on. The website says the Kaufmann manuscript, but the person who did the work and set up the website says he actually transcribed the Albeck edition (letter for letter apparently).

[edit] Hebrew naming conventions

Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Incredible

I know that this is an English website, but you might have thought that some mention would be made of the single most important academic work published on the Mishnah, J.N.Epstein's monumental Mavo Le-Nosah Ha-Mishna!

[edit] Introduction is misleading

The introduction should explain what the Mishnah is. Then go on to talk about Rabbi Judah haNasi's compilation of the Mishnah named the Mishnah. 203.158.57.190 17:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand what you are saying, could you elaborate? Jon513 15:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] signed in Israel

I think it's important to note right in the introduction that the misnah was ratified in the land of israel and not in the disapora. Could the main editors of the article please add this ? Amoruso 17:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good links

There are a number of good links from http://www.emet.blog-city.com/the_value_of_learning_mishna.htm that ought to be incorporated into this article, imho. (I added one, anyone else want to?) -- Sholom 04:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I added a section on omissions in the Mishna. I'm afraid my writing is not up to scratch so it may need some editing. Margolies also has an intriguing theory that there were originally seven orders of the Mishna. Wolf2191 19:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

"and is considered the first work of Rabbinic Judaism" I'm not sure about this. Hoffman claims that the Medrashei halochoh precede the Mishna and Rebbe actually used them to compile the Mishna. One should really add R' Y. Y. Weinberg, the Seridei Eish to the historical references.He has several extensive articles in Kol Kitvei and SE 4 on the subject. He was the last Orthodox Rabbi to discuss this issue (besides for R' Margolies). I'm not aware that the Maharshal wrote a commentary on the Mishna. (Maharshal is on Talmud.)Wolf2191 19:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC) My citation for hoffman is the book mentioned below. I don't know why someone put in citation neededWolf2191 15:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names of Wikipedia articles on tractates

Not that I actually intend to do this by myself, but I suggest in principle that all the names of Wikipedia articles on tractates of the Mishnah and Talmud, as listed in Template:Mishnah, should be renamed. Instead of:

all of them should use clear, identical terminology that relates to both the mishnah and talmud:

  • Tractate Berakhot,
  • Tractate Sanhedrin,
  • etc, with redirects when useful.

This would parallel the titles as found on he.wikipedia, מסכת ברכות, מסכת סנהדרין, etc. Dovi 17:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake in attributing Maimonidies understanding of why the oral law had to be written

Maimonidies writes that as generations pass, each generation goes down a level and as such they reached a time - the disciples of Hillel and Shamai when they could no longer attain the understanding of the depths of the oral law by heart - which led to machlokot (disputes) and ultimately forced the sages to write down the oral law. the understanding that is written is really Rav Shriray Ga'on , not Rambam's. It should be noted that the source for this is discussion is the Talmud in Tractate Sanhedrin which quotes a Tosefta in Sanhedrin. Samson Ben-Manoach 01:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd Paragraph - it is incorrect that the talmud was compiled "with" the Mishna

As is evidenced by the discussions in the Talmud Baba Metsia - where we see an encouragement to learn Mishna , not "only Talmud" a clear indication (as the commentators over there point out) that the original Talmud did not incorporate the Mishna, but rather expanded upon it, assuming everyone knew it (or owned a separate written copy). Samson Ben-Manoach 01:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of Mo'ed may be inaccurate

if i am not mistaken, Mo'ed is a set time, not a festival. that is why this "seder" includes a tractate about sad times e.g. ta'anit. Samson Ben-Manoach 01:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit "relationship with Bible" paragraph

I think it is incorrect to say: Over the next four centuries this material underwent analysis and debate, known as Gemara ("completion") The Talmud (Tractate Berachot 5a and other places) clearly indicates that the oral tradition from the time of Moshe had both Mishna and Gemara. it is only the Gemara of those generations that is recorded, but the talmud indicates that Hillels disciples studied the "gemara" and logical debates that were later rehashed by Abayey and Rava. It is also, I think, incorrect to say that the word Gemara means "finished" (although it does mean that in Hebrew) in Talmud language (aramaic) we find that it means "to say over by tradition" like the word "gamar" which in the Talmud means he had on tradition or "agmirey" which means he taught him, or "Gemiri" which means we have a tradition dating back to Moshe as Rashi explains in numerous places. Samson Ben-Manoach 01:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit "relationship with Bible" paragraph

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the Mishna is "case driven" and that the Mishna seeks the best way to give over the most details with the least amount of words. (as the Talmud stresses in the beginning of Talmud Pesachim)? Where does the author get this notion that the Mishna doesn't make mention of the Bible because it was given together with it? Shouldn't that require a source? Samson Ben-Manoach 01:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edit Competing oral laws and acceptance

Shouldn't there be mention of the fact that Rabbi Judah Hanassi worked together with his desciples and his court? Isn't it worth mentioning that he gathered all the great Rabbis of his time and they all partook of the compilation (Igeret Rav Shriray Gaon and other Rishonim in explaining how he was able te give an opinion the power of "rov" the majority opinion, they explain- because Rabi had a Majority opinion colluding with him. it is also evidenced by the Talmud's calling it "Rabi u'beit dino, Rabi and his court)? Samson Ben-Manoach 01:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Karaite edit

isn't it that the Kara'ites opposed the oral law period. they went with there own interpretation and didn't want to accept the tradition or the Rabbis authority. it had nothing to do with the writting of the Mishna. They were around centuries prior to the writting of the Mishna, during much of the Second Temple - as is evidenced by Mishnayot in Yoma, and is clearly written in Pirkey DRabi E iezer (where they are dated back to the begining of the second temple and the time of the men of the Great Assembly and Ezra )and in Maimonidies writtings?! If no one opposes, i would opt to remove this section from this article. Samson Ben-Manoach 02:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recording

"The resulting work was not written down until c. 800-900 CE," where did the author get that date from? Rashi and Rambam have a difference of opinion when it was written, but who says such a late date? Samson Ben-Manoach 02:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

To all of your suggestion I would recommend being bold. Please cite your sources. Edits that doesn't cite sources are worth much less than sourced edits. Had the author of the the state "The resulting work was not written down until c. 800-900 CE" cited his source the statement could be changed to "according to whoever..." but sadly we can't. Jon513 11:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The earliest Mishnah manuscripts are from around those dates. However, that means nothing about the Mishnah being composed as a text by Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi far earlier. It's just that the text was memorized (word for word), rather than actually written down. Such memorization was the function of the tanna who is often mentioned in the gemara as sitting in the beit hamidrash. Dovi 11:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maimonidies clearly states that the Mishna was "written" in the days of Rabi

Maimonidies in his intro to the Mishne Torah writes that "everyone wrote" the Mishna that Rabi compiled. I quote: רבינו הקדוש (ו)הוא קיבץ כל השמועות וכל הדינים וכל הביאורים והפירושים ששמעו ממשה רבינו ושלמדו בית דין שבכל דור ודור בכל התורה כולה וחיבר מהכל ספר המשנה. ושננו לחכמים ברבים ונגלה לכל ישראל וכתבוהו כולם. This is also clearly indicated by the Talmud in the end of Tractate Berachot when it classifies Rabis actions as "eis la'asos l'Hashem". it is also so understood by the Shulchan Aruch and commentators. They make reference to it in the discussion of when may one write the oral law, the whole discussion in Halacha revolves around the assumption that Rabi started something new (by writting the Mishna) in these halachot and the only question is how far did he mean for us to take it. Samson Ben-Manoach 00:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is the Rambam's opinion. Dovi 06:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] editing

A week has past, and no objections were posted so i am taking the recommendations to be "bold" and making the changes. Samson Ben-Manoach 22:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed inaccurate sentence as per my post need a link though

I removed the sentence that claims that the Talmud was initially with the Mishna "built-in", as per my earlier post. I think it would be worthwhile to make a link to Talmud though, and don't know how to do that. Samson Ben-Manoach 05:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed inaccurate sentence

The Talmud in Avodah Zara and Chulin clearly states that there were additions to the mishna post-Rabi. his Grandson Rabbi Yehuda Nesi'ah's opinion, for example was added to the Mishna. Rashi in Baba Metzia clearly writes that afer Rabbi "lo hosifu ki im m'at they didn't add but a little - clearly indicating that some additions were made post rabi. it is also innacurate to say that the mishna wasn't written by rabi - as i mentioned previoussly. Samson Ben-Manoach 06:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The parts of the article about Gemara are innacurate and don't belong here

1 the definition of Gemara is inconsistnent in the article 2 the definition of Gemara doesn't belong here, it belongs in the page on talmud 3 the information is not in line with Rabbinic Tradition, all the while claiming to represent it. it is in conflict with talmud Berachot 5a and Maimonidies intro to Mishna and R. Yosef Kairo's work Klaley Hagemara and much more, i don't see reason to record, the author is the one who has to bring a source for what he is writting that Over the next four centuries this material underwent analysis and debate, known as Gemara ("completion") The author gives the feeling that the Gemara was an invention of those generations - the sources i quoted earlier clearly say that "gemara" existed in Moses' time. there are other proofs from the Talmud and more but i think them unnecessary. first i would want to see a source that says otherwise. if no one has an objection i will remove the sentences. Samson Ben-Manoach 06:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraph claiming the mishna hadn't needed a source in the Bible is not in line with rabinic tradition

Notably, the Mishnah does not cite a written scriptural basis for its laws; since it is said that the Oral Law was given simultaneously with the Written Law, the Oral Law codified in the Mishnah does not derive directly from the Written Law of the Torah. This is in contrast with the Midrash halakha, works in which the sources of the traditionally received laws are identified in the Tanakh, often by linking a verse to a halakha. These Midrashim often predate the Mishnah. This is a nice invetion. it has nothing to do with Rabbinic tradition though. Rav Shriray Ga'on, Rashi's desciple in Machzor Vitri, Maimonidies, Rashi in Tanach and many other Rabbinic source take for granted the contrary. EVERYTHING in the mishna has basis in the Bible - it is just that the Mishna was formulated to be case driven - not source driven. in this way - the most information could be packed into a mishna. The authors of the Mishna saw no point in writting the sources . see rav Kampanktun (11th century) famous essay on the ways of the Talmud , and Maimonidies intro, Maimonidies letter to Rav Pinchas hadayan, and Yad Malachi in the beginning, sefer keritut and halichot olam - all of these works are basic to the understanding of rabinic tradition and the compilation of the mishna and they all disagree with what is written in the article - explaining as aforementioned - that the mishna is simply case driven. a source that realy spells it out is the Netsiv in his intro to Emek Hash'eyla. Rashi throughout the Talmud clearly indicates this as well. it is sad that such a paracraph is part of the article. Samson Ben-Manoach 06:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] sentence in conflict with Talmud

These Midrashim often predate the Mishnah

WHAT IS THE SOURCE? This is again in conflict with talmud berachot 5a and more ! Maimonidies seems to say the exact opposite in his intro to sefer hamitzvot. Samson Ben-Manoach 06:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] innacurate sentence

after the destruction of the city and the Second Temple, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai and his students founded a new religious center in Yavne. The talmud in gitin clearly refers to yavneh (before the destruction of the temple) as "yavneh v'chachame'ha" Yaveneh and its' wise men - at that time Vespasian had surrounded Jerusalem to destroy it, clearly indicating that it had already been a center for study before the destruction. see also Talmud Rosh Hashana asara galuyot galta sanhedrin Samson Ben-Manoach 06:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] innacurate sentence

A number of important laws are not elaborated upon in the Mishnah. These include the laws of tzitzit, tefillin (phylactories), mezuzah (Sta"m), the holiday of Hannukah, and the laws of gerim (converts). These were later discussed in the minor tractates.

This needs proof. the Shach in shulchan aruch (Codex) laws of Stam, writes that these were tana'ic quotes of the same period as the Mishna, they weren't compiled into "tractates" until a later date, but they were discussed at the same time. Samson Ben-Manoach 06:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the Rosh says from the times of the Gaonim and the Maskilim concur. The Gra says like you. (I will attempt to search for exact source.) The point of margoles on the seventh orders is also relevant here.BestWolf2191 05:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion: why not remove the whole first paragraph?

The article would be far more comprehendable to the layman and would also flow better. Any opinions? Samson Ben-Manoach 23:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Idea for Talmud articles

I am reposting the following request from User Sh76us (talk · contribs) on my user talk page for wider notification:

I was thinking of trying to stimulate development of a series of articles on Gemara concepts and doctrines, maybe to help children or newcomers to Gemara with explanations of some fundamental concepts that recur throughout the Gemara. Some examples might be articles on Yiush, Chazakah, Ta'aninun (as in "Ta'aninun L'Yoresh"), Eidim Zomemin (forgive my awful transliterations), Migu, etc., etc. Maybe we could even create a category or subcategory for it. I created Breira in this vein. As I don't have the experience or expertise in Wikipedia to know what to do to best develop this idea, I figured I'd come to you for your opinions on: (1) whether it's a good idea; and (2) How to best go about implementing it. Thanks Sh76us (talk) 15:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Centralized discussion at: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Idea for Talmud articles. Thank you. IZAK (talk) 03:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Someone has gone through systematically altering "Mishnah" to "Mishna". This is indeed a frequent modern spelling, and is standard in other languages such as French (German has "Mischna"). However, I think it should be resisted for the following reasons:

  1. "Mishnah" is the title of the article; if the spelling is to be changed the article should be moved;
  2. Silent final h is standard in English ("ah", "loofah" etc.) and is invariably used in Biblical names and usually used in other Hebrew words ("Sarah", "Torah", "Isaiah", "Judah")
  3. It is a useful way of distinguishing Hebrew words ending with he from words ending with aleph (such as "Gemara").

Of course, in links and bibliographies, we should be careful to use the same spelling as in the actual website or book, rather than trying to standardize. I haven't the time to check all these. However I have changed all the references in the main narrative part of the article. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the title should be changed to Mishna. There is absolutely no point on maintaining in the English transcription any distinction between silent aleph and silent he. --Redaktor (talk) 10:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. It's a useful guide to the Hebrew spelling, and it is embedded in the conventions of the English language. ("Sarah" and "Sara" both exist as names, but the Biblical matriarch is always "Sarah".) Do you always write "Tora"? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)