Talk:Minor third

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[edit] Augmented second

I've reworded part of this section for two reasons:

1 - Its wording seemed to suggest that the key of A minor was somehow special, and not just an example.

2 - It states that the augmented second enables cadences of major keys to be used. In fact, it's the raised seventh degree that causes this - the augmented second is just a consequence of that note having been raised. The melodic minor scale also enables such cadences, but without an augmented second being present.

Quarter tone

I'd also like to know about the other meanings in quarter tone music and Arabic music, i.e. a quarter tone sharper than a major second. Is 'augmented second' the official term for it in quarter tone music theory, and does the Arabic term for it also translate to augmented second? Or is the meaning here just literally: same size as a major second but a quarter tone larger? If the latter, then I feel the term 'augmented second' shouldn't be used in either of those cases

Finally - I wonder why the augmented second is here at all under minor third, and not in its own article. None of the other intervals include their enharmonic equivalents as a separate section in the same article (e.g., augmented sixth and minor seventh). Ok, I know 'diminished fifth' and its enharmonic equivalent 'augmented fourth' are both included under tritone but that's a special case, and has got more to do with them also being (more importantly) each other's 'inversion' rather than just enharmonic equivalents. Any thoughts? Thanks, (Mark, 08 Apr 06)

The interval a quarter tone higher than a tone I believe is called a medium second. Its listing here might be inappropriate.Sorry, I was thinking of the wrong interval. The term "augmented second" for this is confusing, but I do believe it is used in such a way. Rainwarrior 05:01, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
As for enharmonics, the augmented sixth has a special contrapuntal function in classical music that minor sevenths do not (it sounds weird, but if you want to check up on this, take a look at a harmony textbook and you'll probably find a whole chapter on augmented sixths). The augmented second doesn't usually carry such significance. Rainwarrior 04:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that augmented sixths are very different from minor sevenths. That's why I chose that example. I wanted to show that all enharmonic equivalents are significantly different - and I feel the augmented second is no exception. Look at its history. In contrast to the familiar and 'sweetly demure' minor third, the augmented second's eastern connotations caused it to be regarded with xenophobic suspicion. Melodically, it was (and still is) considered awkward and ungainly, to the extent that it led to the creation of the melodic minor scale. Harmonically, judging by its rarity, (and before the introduction of equal temperament), it was probabably considered a few steps lower than even the Devil's interval: the tritone - until the age of chromaticism liberated it and jazz harmony found it a permanent place in one of my all time favourite chords, the augmented ninth. (Mark, 8 April 2006)
I adjusted the description of the augmented second. The interval that is the subject of this article is the minor third, and not some other interval which is a quarter tone smaller. Perhaps this "arabic augmented second" belongs in another article? Rainwarrior 05:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced statement

I've removed the tag and the statement, finding no support for it.

One example: on page 37, of Habib Hassan Touma's The Music of the Arabs he calls 250 cents a "medium second". 300 cents is an augmented second or minor third. Gene Ward Smith 02:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split proposal

I'd like to split off augmented second from minor third and expand both articles. A person wanting to read about augmented seconds is not really looking for an exposition re minor thirds, and vice-versa. Gene Ward Smith 02:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

If we do split, we don't need a disambiguation page, as the split template suggests. But each should have a strong link to the other, of course. - Rainwarrior 06:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to revise my earlier statement. We should expand the articles first. Only when there's enough information to justify a split should we do so. - Rainwarrior 00:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't really seem to make sence to keep augmented second on the minor third page. If the page was under a different name that described both, then yes, but it just seems wrong now. --LifeEnemy 19:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose — Seems the "same" enough to me. Sure, they're different, but like the article says, they're enharmonically equivalent in equal temperament... Kareeser|Talk! 20:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose, they're identical in all but name. --Kent county 22:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like we have enough of a consensus (with the OP withdrawing the fork), so I'll remove the tag now. Kareeser|Talk! 05:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] uhh ... o.o;;

could someone translate this into layman's terms so i can read it? ^_^; ~!!!Chris!!! 23:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)