Talk:Minesweeper (computer game)/Archive

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Comments

Could I get more explanation of the NP-Complete bit? I'm not a mathematician and that question in relation to this game doesn't make sense to me. Could it be made more clear? (I know it's a possibility that I'm just dense). Thanks

Which was unclear, the problem statement, or the concept of NP-Complete itself? I've added some explanation of Np-Completeness. Is it any clearer now?

Yes, that makes sense now. Thanks.

One thing that should be clarified is that it doesn't mean that minesweeper is always solvable without guessing. A trivial proof of this is the situation at the beginning of the game. I believe that there are other positions where it is not possible to proceed without guessing, also. --Robert Merkel

An example has been added to the article, search for the sentence Minesweeper is not always solvable without guessing -- FvdP 10:10 Aug 11, 2002 (PDT)

To my knowledge, Windows 3.x is the only Windows that has the Minesweeper easter egg. Please edit if you find out otherwise. cprompt

(*) I found the following cheat to work in Windows XP Home (at once answering the next question): type the string xyzzy (lower case) followed by the RIGHT shift key. (The LEFT shift key does not work). Note that ENTER is not necessary. Bcurfs 17:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The xyzzy feature was removed in Win98 but reappeared in Win2k according to the Jargon File -- Paddu 14:46 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)

It's on W2K according to my experience as well. --FvdP 21:22, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Most of the articles linking to this page are about various ships. (Though I realise the number of links doesn't equal popularity).

Even still, I was wondering if it would be best to add a disambiguation line to the start of this article. Or to move minesweeper to '"Minesweeper computer game"' or something, and make Minesweeper a disambiguation page. -- Tristanb Anyone have thoughts on the issue?

The two contexts are quite different, jarring to the reader to be in one and thrown into the other. I'd go for a Minesweeper (game) (unless there's a board game to disambig from :-) ), keep Minesweeper (ship), and make Minesweeper a disambig page. "Minesweeper" can also be a job (the one that inspired the game), so disambig page will get at least one more entry. Stan 13:23 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, i'm taking your advice and moving Minesweeper to "Minesweeper (game)". Anyone who disagrees, you've got the time it takes me to write a disambiguation page to speak out. :-) Tristanb

I once wrote a 3d version of Minesweeper, in Java. If anyone actually cares, I could send/upload it, so it can be uploaded by someone to a site other than geocities, and possibly link to it, next to the other 3d minesweeper link. Its only geometry is a cube made of 6 grids, mapped to a sphere. (Doubt it's important enough for that, but can't hurt to offer it...) كسيپ Cyp 09:41 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Wasn't there a minesweeper game, on the Atari 2600? Rhymeless 22:55, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I added a link to Novel Mines since it seemed strange too use a screencap from the game, but not include a link for it. Also, I happen to like it anyway. 138.253.202.101 19:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Cheats in MS implementations

It's said under "Computer implementations": "When both the left and right mouse buttons are pressed to depress nine squares, <ESC> may be pressed to start or stop the timer."

Maybe it doesn't work in my WXP (Home) implementation: I've no tbeen able to active it. (The xyzzy-cheat does =) )

A more detailed explanation (though a little different and not verified by me) can be found on http://metanoodle.com/minesweeper/subcheats.html. A rewording of it would have been my first contribution to an article, if only I could have verified it to be true (in my WXP Home)

Can someone test all this?--euyyn 19:31, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've confirmed the xyzzy cheat in XP Professional. I'm sure I've used it on other Windows versions, but I no longer recall the details. The left+right click "cheat" isn't a cheat at all . . . it's in the documentation! Incidentally, it's actually middle click, but most systems have left+right mapped to middle. I just checked KMines, and it requires middle-click. -- Ventura 20:26, 2005 Mar 6 (UTC)

Note on the cheat: see (*) above Bcurfs 17:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction?

The beginning of the article says Most implementations of minesweeper "cheat" in favour of the player by ... changing the board so there are no 50-50 guess situations.

But later on (in the "Mine probabilities are not enough" section) is explicitly shows a case of 1/2 probability of mine on d, e and I've been in those situations zillions of times.

I am thinking of deleting the claim that there are no 50-50 guess situations, but maybe I misunderstood what the original writer meant. Comments? --Keeves 12:27, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

www.minesweepers.org is a good reference. It says there are a few non-Microsoft versions that try different means to shield you from having to guess. In my experience with XP and 2000, it still certainly can require a guess. -- 20:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Still unclear about the NP-complete section

I don't think I understand what is meant by "That means it is easy to check that a particular arrangement of mines corresponds to the given numbers, but it is probably hard to find such an arrangement, in some cases." What does it mean to find an arrangement of mines and corresponding numbers? I know this is a sticky issue to describe.

Maybe "...it is easy to quickly and accurately check that a particular arrangement of mines corresponds to the given numbers, but hard to check any arrangement with the same accuracy and brevity." -- 20:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually what was meant was that it is probably hard to find an arrangement of mines given the numbers. I've clarified it. --Damian Yerrick 16:38, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bad example?

In the section Mine probabilities are not enough, you can reach the same solution by turning the probability approach around: if the algorithm at hand focuses on marking most probable mine spots first before clearing any squares, it will still choose the path from the number four to the right. The probability of a mine in any of a,b,c is 2/3, whereas for d,e it is 1/2. --82.181.25.86 12:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Suggest possible extra link

At http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/ there's a Minesweeper clone which deliberately generates the mine layout in such a way that the player never has to guess.

I post this here rather than adding it straight to the links section on the actual page because, well, I'm the author and it would seem too much like self-promotion to add a link to my own website. However, since the problem of guessing in Minesweeper is generally a hot topic and authors often seem to try to mitigate it in one way or another (this page already contains a link to "LuckySweeper", for example), it seems to me that people reading the links section might genuinely be interested in a Minesweeper which guarantees to generate guess-free grids. I know I would have been (since in its absence I went to the effort of writing it!).

There's no advertising on my web pages, and the software is all free; I'm not angling to benefit financially from this link. (Neither am I looking to boost my Google-cred, since I'm also the author of more well known software and already have all the Google-cred I can eat.) I've been hesitating for months trying to work out whether even suggesting it on this talk page was too much self-promotion, but decided in the end that the worst that can happen is I get told to go away :-) 80.4.5.74 09:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks both for being so careful about self-promotion, and for writing the program and mentioning it here. I've added it to the page. JesseW, the juggling janitor 10:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, just add your link to the clone links. :) Hopsing

Program Crash

I once played so fast, the game crashed. It never happened before. Anyone else? -- THEBlunderbuss 10:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

no, this is normal behavior of windows.--Pixel ;-) 11:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

More pictures?

Would it be okay if I threw up quick, small screenshots for some of the patterns? The wording is rather unclear and a picture says so much more. Crystallina 03:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Definetly we need photos, what is the "wall", edge of game or what? Patcat88 15:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Edge of a cleared area. Crystallina 19:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

History

I couldn't figure out which section of links this should go in, but it does tell some history of minesweeper: http://web.archive.org/web/20030102212301/http://metanoodle.com/minesweeper/donner.html Family Guy Guy 06:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Google Minsweeper

Someone should add a bit about [Google's new Minsweeper] thats collaborative. http://www.google.com/search?q=google+minesweeper&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Vista_minesweeper.jpg

i don't think that fair use aplies to this,ther are alredy some free screenshots.Do we deleat it?--Pixel ;-) 01:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

NP Completeness section

I was reading through this section, I was a little confused by the description of how minesweeper is NP complete. I replaced the possible implications of minesweeper NP completeness with a footnote to the site detailing them. What do you guys think? MarkBuckles (talk) 07:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Screenshots

Why are all screenshots from KMines? The most popular version of Minesweeper is the one included in Windows and it should be the one depicted. Futurix 11:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The old screenshots (of windows minesweeper, rather than KMines) need to be restored.(user Arjadre)

Indeed they do. Perhaps there was a problem using the windows version of minesweeper itself, and perhaps we should redo the images in a look-alike clone. This would only be for the images that have the "minesweeper" top bar. The quality of those images aren't great anyhow... for now I'll try to restore them. -DB (MS scores 1-14-53) 9:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)(IP adress)

The windows images are not fair use.This is an article about the game minesweaper, not about windows mineseaper.If you think they are ugly find a replacement, in the mean wille kmines screenschots is all we have.--Pixel ;-) 21:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It's exacly the same rules.Only the colors change, and the name.--Pixel ;-) 18:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This article has a least two sections almost exclusively dedicated to Windows version of Minesweeper ("Computer implementations" and "Cheat codes"). This is more then enough for fair use of Windows Minesweeper screenshots. Futurix 23:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

So this sections schould go to a separet article.I propose to split them to a dedicated article about windows minesweaper.--Pixel ;-) 00:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

in order to be fair use the article had to refer to windows mineseeper.It don't, it refers to the game in general.--Pixel ;-) 01:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you are wrong - there is no requirement of entire article referring to the subject of screenshots. Current amount of text is perfectly fine.

Also, I see no need for separate article about Windows Minesweeper. Futurix 15:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Reed this Fair use criteria."no requirement of entire article referring to the subject of screenshots" wher did you find this ??Elaboret this one.The article would not refer just on screenshots.

Windows minesweeper is not the minesweeper.Ters coca cola and pepsi cola,if you have an article on cola you do not put in just coca cola.--Pixel ;-) 15:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Please, read WP:FAIR before editing again - especially section "Acceptable uses" (subsection "Images"). And please stop endless reverts. Futurix 16:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. According to the page given by Futurix, "Screenshots from software products" are generally agreed not to be copyright violation. So, it is much better to use screenshots of Microsoft Minesweeper, since it is immediately recognized as "Minesweeper" by the great majority of people. Also, no need to make a separate article about that. So, please stop insisting on this subject and reverting edits. 201.79.84.164 16:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Nope. What the page says is fair use: "Screenshots from software products. For critical commentary." What we have here is more like what the page says is not fair use: "An image of a rose, cropped from an image of a record album jacket, used to illustrate an article on roses." "A work of art, not so famous as to be iconic, whose theme happens to be the Spanish Civil War, to illustrate an article on the war."

What is most important in this matter, if you read the introduction of the page, it says "original images and sound files licensed under the GFDL or in the public domain are greatly preferred to copyrighted media files used under fair use." We can use free images so we should. --TuukkaH 17:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Large part of this article is about Windows Minesweeper, so there is enough "critical commentary" present.

As for can part of the rules:

1. As I said - large part of the article is about Windows Minesweeper, and I'm not sure that open-source clone is suitable as replacement.

2. Preferring open-source clones to commercial software may be not compatible with WP:NPOV.

I have no idea what to in this case really... Futurix 17:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

1.This parts haven't ter place here.

2.The preference is free content over copyrighted.--Pixel ;-) 17:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

1. Questionable. This is your POV.

2. This preference created bias, "fair use" should be as acceptable as free content too. Futurix 17:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

1.That's why i added the discus tag fot the proposed split.

2.Automaticly, when free content is available,fair use status is lost.--Pixel ;-) 18:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

1. One tag per entire article is more then enough.

2. No, it is not.

Anyway, I quit the debate - you may continue to push your own POV (afterall it seems that such pro-open-source position is official bias of entire Wikipedia - I see that most general software articles contain only open-source software screenshots (web browser, Spreadsheet) or feature mostly OSS screenshots (Operating systems, Command line interface, GUI)). Futurix 19:08, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

For each image of Windows Minesweeper included, we have to be able to justify that they are required there for "identification purposes" or "critical commentary". We can have one image whose caption is Screenshot of the legendary Microsoft Minesweeper, that's the identification, that's ok. Middle-ground? But the cropped images and images that illustrate general aspects of minesweeper, they aren't in any way critique of Microsoft Minesweeper specifically, that's not ok. Further, we can perfectly communicate and without POV use KMines in those places, because there we are not pushing any POV with respect to any specific implementation, we're discussing mathematical facts. --TuukkaH 17:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

You didn't read it carefuly.In order to be fair use, the image have to refer specificaly to that software.The images DON'T refer to ms mineseeper, but to minesweeper.So it's not fair use.The split templates are for discusion, you don't have the right to remove them.The presence of the templates don't implie automaticly, that it will be done, it's to atract attention for the discussion.--Pixel ;-) 17:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair use is not supposed to be used for merely decorative purposes. If it's used for identification, at least, that can be acceptable, but you only need one screenshot for that. Please see fair use criterion #1: fair-use images can't be used unless "no free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information". This is arguably the case for at least a single screenshot of MS Minesweeper — I personally suspect that if Brad or Jimbo were to give their opinion, it would be that no MS screenshot is needed, but since I'm neither Brad nor Jimbo and have no ability to enforce that particular view of policy, and I doubt I can convince everyone of that precise point of view, I won't try to endlessly debate the issue.

However, be aware that if the images are readded wholesale, I will go ask one of a few admins I know who hang out on IRC, who tend to take a very strict view of fair use, to deal with the issue. At the very least, this will undoubtedly result in the disputed images being deleted, and possibly blocks for some people as well. You have been warned.

Also note that merely splitting into a different article won't improve your case for fair use. That is, you couldn't have MS Minesweeper icons for stuff about strategy, or have more than one MS screenshot in the article (except possibly to show different looks, like Vista versus XP). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 01:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for confirmation of systematic bias. Needless to say I'm very dissapointed. Futurix 10:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a commitment to free content is the official bias of Wikipedia, if you would like to call it that. "The Free Encyclopedia" doesn't just mean without cost, it means free content (this is reflected better in other languages' translations of the phrase; see Gratis versus Libre). This is a founding issue of Wikipedia and will never be changed: see the third pillar of Wikipedia. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Funny how it conflicts with the second pillar (neutral point of view). I find it ridiculous, that thousands of websites can use screenshots of commercial software, but only Wikipedia forces this stupid rule on itself. There goes objectivity... Oh, well... Futurix 09:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Free ,like in the statue of liberty, versus free like in free bear.--Pixel ;-) 03:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Generic images

To solve this issue once for all, I did by myself images that replace the original ones. The images that I did are not screenshots. They were made by me. So, there is no board skin from any version being shown. The usual and most common colors found on Minesweeper versions were used in the numbers. The images represent properly what is written in the text of the article, and are released to the public domain. RodrigoCamargo 22:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Great ,now we have to chouse betewn the two.The kmines ones or the hand made ones.--Pixel ;-) 02:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There is really no need to vote on this topic. Remember that Wikipedia is not a democracy. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. It seems you also changed the images in the past, and insisted a lot about keeping them. I replaced the images by new ones, able to represent any kind of version of the game Minesweeper, since (as I read that you said before) this article is only about the game, not about a specific version - not Microsoft version, nor KMines version. RodrigoCamargo 02:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you propose to change all free screenshots of wikipedia in generic articles with drawings?My changes in the past where justified.I think that the debate was copyrighted versus free copyright,not windows versus kmines.So only esthetics concern remain.--Pixel ;-) 03:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't propose that. What I propose is to use, on the Minesweeper article, the images that I did - just that. These images are able to represent any version/implementation of the game, in any computer platform/OS. This is for sure, because the rules of Minesweeper are always the same, independently on how the squares or the numbers look. And, as the article is intended to be about the game Minesweeper (and not about any version), it is coherent to have images that illustrate the game (and not any version). Besides that, images released in the public domain are always preferrable. RodrigoCamargo 04:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Then why put drawings here, and not at the auther articles.Drawings for the auther articles too can do that.Usually peopol ,try to do the exacte oposite,they try to get ride of the drawings.The isue here is betewn drawing and a screenshot.At my nolege ther isn't any preference betwean the accepted copyrights,wher did you find that?for example all edits at wikipedia are by default in gfdl(it's reten just under your editing window) not in the PD.--Pixel ;-) 04:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not proposing anything for other articles. Discussions about other articles must be made on the talk page of the other articles. I am proposing to use these images on this article, because I am discussing it on this talk page. I can give some reasons for why the images that I did are more suitable than others in this article: (1) the article is about the game Minesweeper, and these images represent the game (not specifically any version); (2) these images are not drafts, they are well-made; (3) they agree with the neutral point of view rule of Wikipedia; (4) they are released to the public domain; (5) this issue about screenshots was showing to be too much controversial, and a more reasonable and neutral solution was needed. RodrigoCamargo 11:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

If you are the ip adress below,please replace it with your user name.(1)It's a drawing,wikipedia is not sensored,if we folow that logic then we should replace all none specific pictures with drawings on the groweds of neutrality.For example we schould replace all photos of peopol with scethes to avoid depicting the skin color.(2)On this mater everybodys POV is equal (3)redondend with 1 (4)ther's no copyright isue here (5)it's noble from you, but the discusion above was on copyrigt,not windows versus Kmines.--Pixel ;-) 16:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You pointed out that the old images of the article were copyrighted, and this was a problem. Now, the images that I did are not copyrighted, and the problem is solved. Even better: now the images illustrate the game Minesweeper, instead of giving only an example of one of several versions. So, these images end up definitely the discussion, because they achieve the goal of corresponding to the expectations of both sides of the initial discussion. And more: this goal is achieved in the best possible neutral point of view. Finally, please stop thinking about other articles. I am not suggesting to change or to follow any logic on other articles. I am just solving a problem that existed on this article. And it is solved now. RodrigoCamargo 18:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't invented the copyright isue,simetrical was clearer then me.You didn't understand the previous isue.No the problem is not solved,now we have two sets from wich to chose,one of wich is drawings.Your attemting to censure the previous set on grounds of npov.Thers the same rules for all articles.The same logic is aplicable on all articles,do you see a profusion of drawings in the articles?They are avoided when possible.--Pixel ;-) 07:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The aim of this article is to explain and talk about the game Minesweeper, right? So, there is no need to do it depicting in the images a simple example of one of many versions of minesweeper. Everything should be explained with generic images, which are applicable to all versions. Everybody will understand clearly the explanations of the article, including Windows users, KDE users, Mac users, or whatever. If the reader wants to see an example of a version of the game, he/she just needs to scroll down to the Windows implementations section, and there it is a screenshot of it. Don't try to put a screenshot of a version where it is not needed. The article mentions the Windows version, so a screenshot of it is needed. The article does not mention KDE version, so a screenshot of it is not needed. RodrigoCamargo 12:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I like the images on a stylistic basis, because they're generic rather than being specific to one (little-used) implementation of the game. Likewise we have diagrams in Chess and so forth. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Chess-it's the pieces from Xboard.So not NPOV,lt's fluch them with other drawings.Esthetics-Well,we can't argue on that.--Pixel ;-) 07:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok:describe me the diferences between the drawings and each screenshot.--Pixel ;-) 10:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seems you just want to discuss and discuss and discuss endlessly. It seems you don't want to build consensus. RodrigoCamargo 11:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a rule,but a recomendation(oficial not mine).Always asume good faith from others,in the internet,with peopol you never met,without indirect cues of comunication(fascial expresions,tonality of voice ...),misunderstanding are easyly created.So the "it seems",in the internet is derived by far less information then in real life(so it's more error prone).--Pixel ;-) 13:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this a way to avoid the question?You didn't do this drawing out of npov conserns but so that the ms mines screenshots are replaced by a look-alike clone,since the originals couldn't stay.If now you telling me that they all look alike,then why did you do them in the first place.If they realy are look-alike, then a real screenshot should do beter then a drawing.If thers a consern about neutrality then the drawings shouldn't be look-alike clones to any version.Because they are drawing,that don't mean that they are automaticly neutral.--Pixel ;-) 13:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am assuming good faith from you, but since you are suggesting weird things, like replacing the mines by an M or using white color for the numbers because of contrast (???), and since you are asking me pointless questions, I am starting to think that the only thing you want is an endless discussion. I created those images to end up the ongoing discussion about screenshots, and the Generic images section is already bigger than the Screenshots one.

the M was an example.I ment white color for the backrownd.You now very whell that some descifering is needed for my writings.If i looked untracktable for the copyright isue,is simply because the rules whated that,ther was no compromise to be made,actully i could have simply cold an admin imediatly,and it whould have ended with a exstrimly short section.--Pixel ;-) 18:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The images that I did are neutral. They contain only the most important part of the game - the board. Not even the smiley and the timer (which are a serious identification of which version is being used) are showing. This way, the images represent none of the several versions. Also, I used a standard font on the numbers, which I never saw on any other version of Minesweeper. I also used the standard colors of the game (and I am not the responsible for the fact that these colors are standard). Let's try not to go further on this discussion. RodrigoCamargo 14:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Why did you created the images in the first place?--Pixel ;-) 18:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

He has answered that repeatedly, beginning with his first post in this section. It's true that the style is most similar to Microsoft's, but there's no harm in that, whether or not other versions copy their style. It's the style most readers are used to, why not use it? Should we replace the images of chess figures on Chess with letters because they represent only the most dominant way of representing chess figures and leave out greatly different traditions? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

His copyright sayes that it was to replace copyrighted images.In the screenshot section,if we asume that he is the ip adrees he sayes to make look-alike clone ,here he sayes that is for npov,in the proposals he sayes to deleat kmines witout merging as not notable,only the most notable schould remane here(guess how many "notable" versions they are) and ofcource we can't split windows ither since talking about minesweeper is essentially the same as talking about the Microsoft version .Can you remind me what neutral mean,i think i forgot.How can you be neutral and similar at the same time?For the leter thing,it was just a proposal,feel free to propose other flags.Chess thing is over 100 years old.--Pixel ;-) 17:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I propose us to give a break and wait for more people to join the discussion. It is more fair. RodrigoCamargo 19:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

If you think that my discussion proposal has a problem say it ther.--Pixel ;-) 22:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Black and white images

Since thers a zilion minesweepers, we should replace the drawings with a black and white one,so that it will resemble no one.--Pixel ;-) 11:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No, it is definitely not a good idea. These colors are the usual colors that almost all versions of Minesweeper tend to use, even the 3D or triangular/hexagonal ones too. Just check out the images in the gallery. The background is essentially gray, the number "1" is almost always blue, the number "2" is almost always green, "3" is almost always "red", and so on. People quickly get familiarized with these colors, and will be able to recognize them more easily if the images are using colors. I tried to put in the caption of a picture the sentence "in its usual colors", but you reverted my edit. RodrigoCamargo 11:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

compare the screenshots(all) with the drawings and tell me .Wich one resebles the most with the drawings.--Pixel ;-) 12:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not a matter of resembling or not. You suggested to use black and white images, and I simply said it is not a good idea, since the majority of the available versions has colors, and the majority of them show the usual colors (blue for "1", green for "2", etc). Just that. Not a matter of resembling. RodrigoCamargo 12:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Should i take this as a yes?Yes it's closer to windows then eny other.--Pixel ;-) 13:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Also the mines be replaced by an M and the font white for contrast.--Pixel ;-) 13:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That way no one is jalous.--Pixel ;-) 13:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Microsoft Minesweeper, Minesweeper on Vista, KMines, Minesweeper in Firefox, Gnome Mines, Xdémineur, both Minesweeper 3D versions, the hexagonal version, and XMines, as well as hundreds of other versions available for download use the same standard of colors: gray background, blue "1", green "2", red "3", etc. It is normal that every game developer who wants to make a new version will tend to use these same colors. So, it is very incoherent to have black and white images on the article. I disagree with that. Also, replacing the mines by an M and making the font white is, in my opinion, very anti-intuitive. I disagree with that too. RodrigoCamargo 15:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This is half the story.You find it anti intuative simply because the only version you now is the MS one.--Pixel ;-) 18:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion ended

MS- KDE- Variants stuff?

Split off MS Minesweeper

This article is about minesweeper, not microsoft minesweeper.It schould have it wone article.It's like having the coca cola article inside the cola article.--Pixel ;-) 17:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. However, we have to balance here between the generality of the topic, and the fact that it owes most of its notability to Microsoft Minesweeper. Even KMines has its own article, so why not the most popular version? "Minesweeper's new look for Windows Vista Beta 2." doesn't belong here. Neither do the small details of its configuration or cheat codes. On the other hand, I think at least some of the best times should stay here as they are represenative of minesweepers in general. --TuukkaH 18:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
i Disagree agree with you,i didn't ment to remove every thing complitly,also a regroup of the windows stuf in a single section seems to me apropriete.for the best times i agree with you, i just put the more relevant tag i could find,but i do beleave that all don't belong here.--Pixel ;-) 19:30, 26 August 2006 (UTC)--Pixel ;-) 23:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Disagree for now. The article is short enough that it could simply have a section under the heading of "Microsoft Minesweeper". mwazzap 09:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

see point 2 at merge proposal--Pixel ;-) 17:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Disagree. I don't think there's enough MS-specific stuff to split, given the article's length. Keep it all together for now. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Disagree until the Microsoft section is large enough to get an article of it's own. Even then, it's still a hard choice. The Windows version is exactly like the regular, unmodified Minesweeper in everything except how it looks. Is that really enough for another article?--❊Đǣţĥ ɱøťőŕ ☎ 20:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Disagree. Talking about the game Minesweeper is almost essentially the same as talking about the Microsoft version of Minesweeper, since this version is present in the majority of computers. Also, there are not many things for now to put in an article only about Microsoft Minesweeper. 201.79.84.164 21:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Disagree. It seems like a case of MS hating is going on if we fold in other versions of minesweeper and then move out the MS one.

The proposal for merge by mwazaap was done after the split proposal,and he was not in favor of the split.--Pixel ;-) 03:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has ended--Pixel ;-) 16:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge in KMines

I have suggested that KMines be merged into Minesweeper (computer game). As per Wikipedia:Merge, the KMines article overlaps greatly with the Minesweeper article and has little it could say for itself on its own. mwazzap 09:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems that kmines is part of this series of articles Kdegames.So a merge here is problematic.Do you reconcider your proposals?--Pixel ;-) 16:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Support mwazzap 09:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Support I don't beleave that it realy has it place in the mane article.Ther's a zilion clones of minesweeper.Even first year students are expected to rwite a 3D vertion.It's not possible to put all here.I think that eventually kmines should go at kde games or something.Windows version at bundled games of windows or something.But i'm ready to support the merge of everything here intil they get biger, or be merged at an other article.--Pixel ;-) 18:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Support, redirect that here and make note of any KDE-specific stuff. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Mega Support By itself it's just a small line of text describing a different type of Minesweeper. If you do this, why not just seperate every single version of Minesweeper into different articles? If you merge it, at least it can make the article a bit better.--❊Đǣţĥ ɱøťőŕ ☎ 20:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not posible to have an article about all mineswepers.It's not possible to put all of them in the article ither.It's just too easy to wright(the programme i mean),first year students are suposed to wright a 3D version.I propose to pull all here for now(variants too) because we don't have much material.I sujest to orginize the article acording to operating systems/gui.I'm not aware of any independent minesweeper that could be considered notable.In the variant section we should put examples of different implementations,not specific programs.--Pixel ;-) 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. KMines is only one of several versions of the game Minesweeper. If any of these versions should be mentioned in the article about the game Minesweeper, they should be the most famous/popular ones. For sure the Microsoft version is famous/popular enough to be mentioned, but definitely KMines not. By the way, I'm not even sure if KMines has enough importance to have its own article on Wikipedia. 201.79.84.164 21:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's widespread because it's bundeled with windows.I wouldn't say popular.Kmines is not a stand alone programme(at my noleg),it is bundled with a paquage of games for KDE.So if we say windows blablabla,KDE blablabla,it should be good.--Pixel ;-) 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment. To reiterate, it does clearly qualify for 2 (arguably 3) of the four reasons for a merge listed on Wikipedia:Merge: "large overlap", "very short and cannot or should not be expanded terribly much", and (arguably) "requires the background material or context from a broader article". mwazzap 07:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

However, first, it must be considered that it is not completely sure about if the KMines article really qualifies for existing. Maybe it should be deleted instead of merged. This discussion should go on the talk page of that article RodrigoCamargo 11:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposal split and merge windows minesweeper in microsoft games pakage

We split windows stuf and we merge them with the other window games in a singel article(ms freecel,ms solitair,and the fourth that i forgot what it was)--Pixel ;-) 16:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Unless there's something that connects those four (the last is Hearts, by the way) other than mere inclusion in the OS, I'm not sure why there needs to be an article on them collectively. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Wher to put them then?--Pixel ;-) 23:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I also think there is no need to group all of them in a new article. These are different games, and will not be very well explained in a single article. RodrigoCamargo 23:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Why ther will not be well explained.Ther's plenty of room in one article.

Minesweeper can be explained in Minesweeper article, Freecel can be explained in Freecel article, and so on. No reason to join all of them in a single explanation. These are different games. Moreover, the four games are not connected in a kind of package. So, they don't need to be explained all together.RodrigoCamargo 00:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal Merge variants

Too small and ther isn't much trafic on this page.--Pixel ;-) 23:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

supporthouba houba--Pixel ;-) 19:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion on Proposals for drawings/screenshots

So kmines should be exposed nowere.Can i remove your drawings from the article then(thers no concencus on them)?Whell,one of them have to be first.You can rename your drawings,if they are not drawing what are they?And they are look alike clones,why did you do them in the first place.You say that they represent every version,i say that they don't,what do you propose for the section.I still didn't hear your offer for compromise.--Pixel ;-) 19:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The images that I did (as well as the image on the KMines screenshot) were hand made. I didn't draw them. I didn't use paper and pencil. I made them on a computer (as well as the image on the KMines screenshot was also made by its author).

So,whay should your version,should be concidered neutral?Just because thers no executable?

And up to now, these images are on the article for a long time, and nobody is complaining about them. On the contrary, at least one person expressed approval for it. And concerning your question "why did you do them in the first place?", I see you already asked it many times, and I already responded many times, too. Take a look at the section Generic images above. I'll quote a part of that section: RodrigoCamargo 22:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

“

Why did you created the images in the first place?--Pixel ;-) 18:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

He has answered that repeatedly, beginning with his first post in this section. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

”

nobody is complainingI'm nobody?because i didn't revert them it don't mean that i accept them.Put back kmines stuf for a week and we'll see.Ther's no concencus.Do you whant that i revert them so that you can say that ther's no concencus?--Pixel ;-) 22:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't. As I already said above, and as Wikipedia recommends, I propose us to give a break and wait for more people to join the discussion. It is more fair. RodrigoCamargo 23:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

O yes ,so that you can claim later that ther is a concesus on the images.--Pixel ;-) 18:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

“

I did this image to replace a possibly copyrighted image

”

and how was the ip adress in the screenshot section. how do you whant to coal them?--Pixel ;-) 22:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposals for drawings/screenshots

Should the images be drawings or screenchots?If it to be drawings, in wich style.If it to be a screenshot wich version?--Pixel ;-) 22:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

For now available

drawings, resembling MS/KMines/Firefox/etc.	KMines	Minesweeper in Firefox	GNOME Mines
XBomb	An ASCII version

It seems that you are trying to start a votation implicitly. This exposure of the two images as if they were "options", or "alternatives", or "choices", is a strong evidence of that. Notice that you even changed the order of the images, placing the image you support in first place, as if you were trying to "induce" others to "vote" on it. Notice also that you are trying to depreciate the images you don't support, by calling them simply as "drawings", and saying they look like the Microsoft version, while they actually represent every version. Remember that things are not decided by voting on Wikipedia, but by building consensus. Consider removing or remodelling this section to meet Wikipedia's standards. RodrigoCamargo 18:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The drawings are simpler. They focus the reader away from the exact implementation and toward the general idea, removing UI that has nothing to do with the game itself and is adequately showcased in the gallery at the bottom of the article. They also aren't uglier, which (for instance) a black and white image would be. If you would like to come up with a better-looking diagram, go ahead, but as far as Kmines versus Rodrigo's versions go, I prefer Rodrigo's. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You can crunch them in no time.It's not a vote betwen the two,you can do proposals too,or modified versions.UI?you mean the window?i don't see what exacly is UI.Why should they be diagrams?Have a pic in the gallery.Or find one on the internet.Or make your won.--Pixel ;-) 00:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the drawings to any of the other options so far presented. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Rodrigo's drawings are simple, to the point, and faithful to the original minesweeper game without infringing on Microsoft's copyrights. Like it or not, the only real minesweeper is Windows minesweeper and everything else, including KMines, is a variant. The 3's in KMines are yellow, rather than red, and therefore unfaithful to windows minesweeper. In addition, in the 3BV part of the article, I have yet to see a KMines screenshot with the correct labeled 3BV. For instance, the beginner KMines board with a labeled 3BV of 19 actually has a 3BV of 20. In contrast, Rodrigo's drawings are labeled accurately. In addition, it is unfair to include screenshots of KMines without including screenshots of other minesweeper programs. Rodrigo's drawings are good because they to not advertise one minesweeper variant over any other. In short, the KMines screenshots should be removed and Rodrigo's drawings should be kept. --Arjadre 03:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I reconted several times,it seems that it is really 19.Rodrigo Silveira Camargo sais that his stuf are neutral and don't look to any particular version,you said the exact oposit ."is unfair to include screenshots of KMines without including screenshots of other minesweeper programs", you are proposing?."are good because they to not advertise one minesweeper variant over any other",aren't you contradicting your self?--Pixel ;-) 18:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The fact that you cannot accurately calculate the 3BV of a beginner board suggests that you may not have the necessary skill to create screenshots to illustate this article (Dick--PIXEL).The 3BV of that beginner board is 20, and I'm sure Rodrigo will back me up on that. Personal attacks aside, my point in my last post (which you quoted and said contradicted itself) is that the only fair way to include screenshots in this article is to either a) use screenshots of windows minesweeper (which cannot be done because of copyright issues), b) include screenshots of every minesweeper variant so that none are left out (which is impractical due to the sheer number of clones out there), or c) use Rodrigo's drawings, which are accurate, unbiased, and concise. To me, c is the clear choice.--Arjadre 04:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

How can they be "unbiased" and "faithful to the original" at the same time?--Pixel ;-) 13:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Sir Pixel... you really irritate me. It's obvious that you are just advertising for your clone. We removed the "copyright forbidden" images, and replaced them with non winmine screenshots. Like it or not, we replaced your blatant advertisements with something that was faithful to the game without violating said "copyright". I don't buy the fact that minesweeper is copyrighted, because then EVERY SCREEN SHOT on this page would be illegal because they would all be recreations of a copyrighted material. All minesweeper accomplishments in the past few years have been accomplished on the clone that we include on the screenshots (or a very close version called minesweeper arbiter), instead of your nonstandard and quite inferior clone (come back to me with decimal totals, video recording, a standard skin, and history creation before you call your clone superior). Bottom line is that we need to show the users a STANDARD and not an IMITATION. There are no copyright rules. -DB (1-14-53) - 20:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

you really irritate meI'm pleased to hear that.just advertisingI never promoted my particular screenshots.don't buy the fact thatIf you don't beleave me,why you don't just put them back?EVERY SCREEN SHOT on this page would be illegalYour ignorance on the copyright isue is blatant,recreations of copyrighted matirial is not iligal.All minesweeper accomplishments in the past few years have been accomplished on the clone that we include on the screenshotsdon't see what you mean?call your clone superior this was never an isue here.I resume that your only argument is esthetics?--Pixel ;-) 20:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You have been heavily involved in the KMines wiki page and you will not stop editing your kmines back into the article. We HAVE put them back, and you just replace them again. Pure advertisement. What I mean is world records, Sub50s and even Sub60s on expert, etc etc. This is why we need to keep the screenshots as the standard, IMC APPROVED clone. -DB (1-14-53) - 22:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)