Talk:Milwaukee School of Engineering

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Milwaukee School of Engineering was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: May 23, 2007

[edit] Material from MSOE website

Just a note to myself (and others) that part of the introduction, along with the History and Accreditation sections were provided by MSOE Webmaster Kent Peterson. [1] [2] [3] Sulfur 23:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

64% of whom held a doctoral degree - need citation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.87.75 (talk) 22:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

can anyone find a source for the statement that Brooks Stevens designed the logo? The link given doesn't seem to have the information, but gives the appearance of being a reference. 72.131.44.247 04:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Added citation needed tags. If no citations are added with 14 days, information will be removed. Kedlav 09:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Added citation.Edurant 22:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Great work finding the Brooks Stevens reference Edurant! Being familiar with his local works I felt it was factual but for the life of me couldn't dig it out of Google. 72.131.44.247 23:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AE Program Section

I removed the section "MSOE Architectural Engineering Program", which was more a section on the AEBC department than the AE program. Some of this information is redundant with the preceding section. More important, it seems out of place to dedicate a section to a department given the approach taken in the vast majority of university articles. Edurant 15:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV /Removed famous/notable graduates section

Removed famous/notable graduates section, as while the achievements of said alumni are something of an accomplishment, they are most assuredly not famous or well-known enough to warrant a reference on Wikipedia. A few other phrasings were changed, mostly relating to school history and the logo. It is important to note that Wikipedia articles are intended as informational references and not public relations. Kedlav 09:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The removed section I feel should be replaced. Well true that the famous/notable graduates may not be able to suport a Wikipedia article on their own, that does not mean that they have to pass the same test to be listed in this article. In fact the removale over rides an agreement of editors reached recently on who should be listed in said section. What are others thoughts?? TheRanger 14:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I replaced Finley and Schotz. I agree that the third name was likely not notable as there are hundreds of thousands of members of the ASCE and they are not all notable. However, we did come to some consensus on the other two and I think they should remain.

It is important to note that notable alumni do not have to be known by everyone in the world to be considered notable, and Finley does indeed have his own wikipedia biography and is a high-ranking member of the government. Cheers, PaddyM 18:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to discuss the net removal of Joseph Rencis further. When I added him, I thought that being elected a fellow (not merely a member) of the ASME is a sufficiently rare honor that he warranted an entry here. The grade of ASME Fellow [4] has been awarded only approximately 2600 times since 1944. The criteria are significant. [5] I agree that a lower standard of notability should apply to notable alumni than to having one's own article. Is anyone aware of applicable guidelines on the matter of notable alumni? Edurant 22:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Edurant on the issue of Joesph Rencis, not knowing much about ASME I looked into it on the web site. It is clear the status of fellow is a big deal and one that would be notable in this type of alumni listing. I would say go for relisting him. Also if you go on the fact that all of these issue were talked about before when we reached consensus on these issues he was listed at that time. TheRanger 15:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I added him back with an additional reference and a Wikipedia link to "Fellow". I think these add useful information and may reduce future concerns about appropriate notability when this section is edited.Edurant 23:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA failed

I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria and have decided to fail the article at this time. Several things that need to be fixed before renominating again include:

1. The multiple sections that are organized as lists need to be converted over to prose. Make sure that the information flows smoothly and is not just a timeline.
2. The two images need detailed fair use rationales for their use on the article. Simply including "fair use" in the description doesn't qualify. Look to similar GA/FAs for examples on what to include.
3. The article has a trivia section which is not allowed for GA. Add whatever relevant information there is to appropriate sections or create new ones. Then delete any trivia facts that are non-notable or that don't fit in anywhere.
4. To meet the broad aspect, the article could use more information to cover more aspects about the school. History should probably be moved up to the beginning. Perhaps add sections on student organizations, a breakdown of the ethnicity/gender of students, information on faculty, etc. or anything else that you think is relevant.

Once you have addressed these issues and have looked over the GA criteria, consider renominating the article. If you think that this review is incorrect, you can seek an alternate review at Wikipedia:Good article review. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 00:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Student Body section, addition of bulleted list of majors

In the recent updates (overall some nice improvements) by User:Emily Lauren, I noticed that the Student Body section was removed and that a bulleted list of majors was re-added. These changes undo some edits that addressed specific good article review comments on the MSOE article (above). This note is both an invitation for other editors to discuss/address these items and a note to myself to take a more careful look at these when I can dedicate sufficient time. Edurant 16:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The article actually looks pretty bad at the moment. And, you're right, it definitely goes against most of the recommendations. When my exams are through next week, I'll help repair the changes. Cheers, PaddyM 17:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the miscommunication, but was instructed by Sandy Everts, director of the Marketing and Public Affairs department, to make the current changes to the article. Along with many other things, she asked me to remove the Student Body section and make a list of the majors with links to the MSOE site, but I do not believe that she knew about the GA criteria when she instructed me to do so. I currently working with Adrian Lilly to try to conform to the criteria while at the same time following Ms. Evert's instructions. I am going to work on adding a student body section which she approves of and turning the list of majors into prose form. Also, I will be doing research on our schools student organizations and student life which I hope to add to the article as soon as possible. Please let me know if this is acceptable to you, or if you have any other ideas. Thanks, Emily Lauren 11:00, 25 September 2007

Fortunately, we don't work according to marketing departments here, so I've gone ahead and removed the bulleted list again. There is no reason to link-spam the page with all the programs that are offered at MSOE, and you'll find that no other college has that privilege either. Cheers, PaddyM 21:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, I looked up what educational institutions are featured content (there aren't many), and have looked at some including Texas A&M University and Michigan State for ideas on how to do the MSOE page. They all had extensive sections on Student Life and School Traditions, so I would like to try adding some stuff on that. Also, they didn't have bulleted lists (like you suggested), so I will work on that problem as soon as possible. Thanks, Emily Lauren 11:29, 25 September 2007