Talk:Milan Matulović

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chess, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of chess. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Chess Portal
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-Importance on the importance scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

Please rate the article and, if you wish, leave comments here regarding your assessment or the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

[edit] reliability of j'adoube source per BLP

I am concerned about the sourcing for the j'adoube incident. It is apparently just a comment section in a webpage. Let's find a better source for this. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 18:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This episode has been described in quite a number of chess books and magazines. Chess Life mentioned it several times in the late 1960s and early 1970s. If anyone can easily get at those in a library, that'd be a place to start. If memory serves, it can be found in a 1969 CL article by columnist Miro Radojcic with the title "Crazy, Man, Crazy." I believe it's also in the Golombek encyclopedia referenced already in the article; I'll check my copy when I get home from work. Since this is derogatory information, you're right that it should be carefully referenced. However, I don't believe it is particularly "controversial," so no need to yank it immediately. -- Bill-on-the-Hill (talk) 23:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I got out my Chess Life mags, and for Feb 1968 through Dec 1969 Radojcic has a column every month except one, but none of them were titled "Crazy, Man, Crazy". Bubba73 (talk), 18:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Found it: Sept 1970, page 500! Bubba73 (talk), 19:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
That article also serves as a reference for adjuorning lost positions.Bubba73 (talk), 19:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I've added another adjournment ref, and if anyone has Chess Review magazine circa 1968, Gligoric, in annotating the same game, makes nearly identical remarks to Levy's. There's also now a ref to MM's odd behavior in the Taimanov game. We're starting to get this cleaned up. -- Bill-on-the-Hill (talk) 05:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The ones in the 1970 Chess Life are similar too. Bubba73 (talk), 01:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Bubba, if you have your 1970 Chess Lifes handy, you might also check for a reference there to support the "Botvinnik complex" mentioned in the article's first big paragraph. It's in there, in one of the articles reporting the Match of the Century, I can't remember who wrote it but possibly Radojcic again. Several other pairing oddities are mentioned in the same article, for example having Uhlmann conveniently lined up as prey for Taimanov, who routinely beat him like a drum. If you could document that one, I'd appreciate it -- I think I finally threw all my old CLs away last year, figuring that I'd never use them again... -- Bill-on-the-Hill (talk) 04:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
You must be older than I am! You have a very good memory for such an old guy. :-) The same article does talk about the Match of the Century, and it quotes Fischer as fearing "this guy may lose all four games to Botvinnik" - clearly a reference to the Botvinnik Complex, but doesn't use those words. Somewhere I read that Botvinnik may have been moved down to play against him, because of it.
My first Chess Life is Feb 1968. They had been in my parent's attic until a few months ago. Now they are in my attic. My mother says "if you don't use an old magazine in six months, throw it out". But I've used them three times for references lately!! I'll look more specifically for Match of the Century - I remember seeing it. CL 1968-1970 are down from the attic at the moment. Bubba73 (talk), 05:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, your first CL is older than mine (May 69). The thing I'm thinking of would be in one of the 1970 CLs, but not in the "Crazy, Man, Crazy" article. The language was something about Botvinnik getting paired with Matulovic, "whose 'Botvinnik Complex' is well known," and also Taimanov with Uhlmann, "whom Taimanov used to beat as he liked." Those phrases have stuck in my mind for a very long time. The article was critical of the requirement for the World team to submit a board order ahead of time to the Soviets, giving them a chance to "play it cool" -- another phrase that stuck -- by setting up these favorable matchups. The article might have been by Gligoric or Dimitrje Bjelica rather than Radojcic; I believe it included a big picture of a rather dorky-looking :-) Fischer talking to the author. That should help you find it. -- Bill-on-the-Hill (talk) 15:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I realized that it was probably in a different issue. Just took me some time to look thruogh them and I found it, June 1970, page 297-301, in "The match of the Century" by Dragoslav Andric, on page 298 "Almost everyone in Belgrade was convinced, however, that the Russians had composed their team according to the list Dr. Euwe had made public well before the opening. That is how - the supposition went on - some Russian grandmasters were put up against their all-time "victims". That is how Taimanov got Uhlmann,whom he used to beat as he liked, and how Botvinnik got Matulovic, who had addmitted (and proved) his "Botvinnik complex". Why else would Taimanov preceed Botvinnik? ... Bubba73 (talk), 15:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
PS, I have to complement your memory again, remembering exact phrases from that far back. Bubba73 (talk), 16:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
But Mat pretty much held his own against Bot, 1.5 - 2.5. Bubba73 (talk), 16:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Some of this stuff could go in Russia (USSR) vs Rest of the World too. Bubba73 (talk), 17:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, the ref is now in the article; thanks for digging it up. -- Bill-on-the-Hill (talk) 23:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Kasparov, vol II, page 254 just says that they played on board 8, 2.5-1.5 for Botvinnik. Bubba73 (talk), 06:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
This is great stuff. I really like the contemporary references. Even though sometimes the lens of time can put events into sharper relief, often a lot of the detail is lost. I also think it's important to record how those events were viewed by their participants and observers. A lot of history is hard to understand if considered only from a modern standpoint. If you would add this material to USSR vs Rest of the World that would be outstanding. Quale (talk) 17:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The CL article goes on to question why Keres was on tenth board and wondered if it had something to do with his opponent. It says that these questions were raised in the Belgrade newspapers and that the Russians responded with letters to the editors explaining how their team was chosen. That is in the article too. It justifies who was selected, but there is some leeway about which board they played on that isn't exactly explained. Bubba73 (talk), 18:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I added two paragraphs to USSR vs Rest of the World, but part of it contains some redundancy that isn't needed. Bubba73 (talk), 01:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I added a reference for J'adoubovic, although this could still use another reference or two. A magazine reference contemporary with the incident as Bill suggests would be good. This is an extremely well-known story, probably the biggest story at Sousse 1967 other than Fischer dropping out. Unlike many such stories, it seems to be true and accurately reported. The WP:BLP concerns are well-grounded, however, and this really needed a better reference. The article as a whole is still largely unreferenced. The only other ref given is Golombek, and Golombek has only a brief entry which does not support most of the claims in the article. Quale (talk) 01:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)