User talk:Mike Christie/Archive05

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Ceawlin the Briton redux ;)

I have found further written sources for the Celticity of Ceawlin of Wessex:

Cerdic and his Ancestors by P. K. JOHNSTON Antiquity Vol. 20, Number 77, March 1946.

http://antiquity.ac.uk/Ant/020/0031/Ant0200031.pdf

"Turning to Ceawlin, we find a name of quite uncertain origin, but one which can hardly be Teutonic of any sort. The combination -aw- recurs in Beaw (for *Beowa, from Beowulf ?) and in Gleawanceaster (Gloucester, Glevum). This analogy would suggest a Welsh form something like *Coewlyn (cp. Caer Gloew, for Glev-). The nearest forms which actually occur are Cocholoyn and Cuhelyn, both supposedly derived from the Irish CuChulainn. But the Northumbrian Bede, though he cites the West Saxon form, preferred to spell the name Caelin (22). He knows it not only as that of the Wessex Bretwalda, but also as the name of a brother of St. Chad (ob. 672). This is particularly significant when it is noted that Caelin’s three brothers, Ceadda (St. Chad), St. Cedd and Cynibill all bear names of probably Keltic derivation (23). It is therefore reasonably certain that St. Chad’s brother derived his name from local, Keltic tradition, rather than from any echo of the victories of Ceawlin far off to the south. Caelin may be derived from Keltic *caelos (Welsh cod, ‘ omen ’). Forms Coelin, Coeling occur in Welsh literature, in the sense of ‘ descendants of Coel the Old ’ (24). The name Ceawlin would seem to indicate a claim to Coeling ancestry."

Might be an argument for increasing the prominence of the British origins of the king's name within the wiki page.

Urselius (talk) 14:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Mike,

I feel that the ethnological slant to the rise of the sub-Roman kingdoms of Britain was largely retrospective, and just plain wrong. Written long after the events by people like Bede, who, incidentally, called St Chad and his 3 brothers unequivocally "English" even though all four had Celtic British names! Interestingly, Bede states that Chad was consecreted a bishop by one English and two British bishops (though British, they were of the "Roman" persuasion in regard to calculating the date of Easter).

I suspect that a number of the heptarchy "English" kingdoms had native dynasties at their head, the most prominent being that of Wessex but also possibly those of Mercia and Lindsey. At the time I imagine that, just as dynasts (like the Ui Niall) supplanted tribal allegiencies around he time of Christ in Ireland, so dynasts supplanted what remained of tribal or local loyalties in sub-Roman Britain. To the people it would not matter what the ethnic origins of the local strong-man dynast was, just so long as he gave the area he ruled a modicum of peace and was reasonably successful in relations to the surrounding strong-men. Thus polities would arise in Britain headed by native dynasts, who ultimately remained Celtic in language and culture, immigrant dynasts from Germany who Germanised the natives under their rule, and native dynasts whose families eventually became Germanised in language and culture.

I think that a number of the pages describing "English" kings whith Celtic names (vis Cerdic, Ceawlin, Penda, Caedwalla and possibly Cyngils, Cynric etc.) do not show the level of uncertainty about their real ethnicity that is merited by the information availiable.

Urselius (talk) 19:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Urselius -- just a quick note to say that I'm interested in this but am so busy right now that I can't give it the attention it deserves. I'm going to try to respond to a copyedit request from another editor, since there's a deadline on that, but I don't think I'll be able to get back to you in any reasonable time. I will definitely read and consider your post at some point, but I wouldn't wait for me -- it could be a while. Thanks for the info and I will respond eventually. Mike Christie (talk) 20:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Copy editing

Would you mind giving Boydell Shakespeare Gallery a quick copy edit? Jbummary has suggested that its prose isn't up to snuff at FAC. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I will see if I can do this today or tomorrow. My day job is eating all my time at the moment, which is one reason I haven't contributed much in the last week or two, but I should be able to get to this by the end of the weekend (and having an excuse to read your articles is always a pleasure). Mike Christie (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)