Talk:Michael A. Bellesiles

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1 Little biographical information
2 Avoid article
3 Gun control debate
4 Publish date
5 RV press release
6 it is NOT a press release and DOES NOT VIOLATE COPYRIGHT RULES
7 Quotes
8 DFL
9 What happened to him?
10 Bias Entry
11 Fair use rationale for Image:Arming America 2.jpg
12 Fair use rationale for Image:Bellesiles2.jpg
13 Fair use rationale for Image:Ethan Allen.jpg
14 Fair use rationale for Image:Lethal Imagination.jpg
15 Fix the lead, please
16 Fair use rationale for Image:Arming America.jpg

[edit] Little biographical information

This is a biography page but contains almost no biographical information. I fail to see how a photo of the author or a list of his other publications, or a statement in his own defense, can possibly be considered "controversial." Please restore those elements.

[edit] Avoid article

Those interested in this topic should avoid this article. A hard core right winger continually edits out anything supportive of Bellesiles. Visit his page - American Flag, Bush supporter, Iraq war supporter etc. etc. A dedicated partisan devoted to keeping this article one-sided and highly biased against any who would support responsible gun control. Most recently he edited out Bellesiles picture and a list of Bellesiles' other books in order to create the impression this is the only piece the man ever wrote. A quotation from Bellesiles defending himself, properly cited with the original text in a link, was also edited out. Like most internet garbage on this book, this article is another example of dedicated pro-gun fanaticism.

[edit] Gun control debate

Can someone please discuss how it affected the gun control debate? How people have used it to argue their claims? That it 'ignited passions' tells me absolutely nothing. 1:41, Nov 10, 2005.

[edit] Publish date

Anyone know whether Arming America was published in October 2003? Moriori 20:12, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] RV press release

I've reverted the same anonymous user's changes as they're still the same posting of a press release by Bellesiles's new publisher. In addition to violating copyright, those changes are the start of an edit war, with one anonymous user simply blowing away the combined efforts of various wikipedians on an article.

I've also tried to NPOV the original article. While I share the original article's viewpoint that Bellesiles's work is intentionally deceptive and thoroughly discredited on most of the important points, he certainly deserves a defense of his work in an article on him. I suspect that the short paragraph about his daughter changing her name still retains too much of the ripped-off press release, and hope that someone will fact-check and paraphrase it.

-Ben

[edit] it is NOT a press release and DOES NOT VIOLATE COPYRIGHT RULES

Furthermore Arming America has never had its thesis discredited. The best you can say is that 1 table and 3 paragraphs in the first chapter weren't sourced right. So take your "Moonie Times" gun nut propaganda somewhere else.

Look, I don't want this article to turn into an Edit war. Your replacing the entire article, which has been honed through a dozen revisions is deeply disrespectful to everyone who's worked on it. The article absolutely needs NPOV help from someone who can articulate Bellesiles's defense, but that's not the same as gutting the criticisms made of Bellesiles.

It's obvious that you disagree with those criticisms, but they must be part of the article. Even if you belive them to be wrong or trivial, they are the reason that Michael Bellesiles is a controversial figure, and probably the reason there's a Wikipedia article on him. They need to remain.

In particular, whatever you keep posting omits the link to James Lindgren's detailed study of Arming America. I think you'd agree that Lindgren's criticisms are impartial and well removed from the "gun nut propaganda", as he's since gone on to be one of the biggest critics of John Lott's work on concealed-carry laws (see your article "Inequitable Penalties", though it doesn't mention Lindgren by name).

Please, don't just go blowing away the original article. Add the quotes by Bellesiles. Add rebuttals of the criticism. Remove obviously non-NPOV language like "the discredited book" (I already started doing that before you blew it away). But don't censor the article!

I'm going to wait a bit before reverting the article to the last version, trying to stay cool.

-Ben

It's not up to Wikipedia to say that one side in a controversy has been "discredited". We can only say that:

Mr. So and So of X organization says that Y's views have been discredited.

But on such a hot issue as gun control, gun rights, gun ownership, or other Second Amendment issues -- it's better to cast the controversy in terms of two opposing points of views (POV).

Let's just say that:

Prof. Bellesilis claimed that firearms were rare in early America, based on statistics he compiled
His university pressured him to resign, because it disagreed with the way he compiled or interpreted the statistics

I think everyone would agree that the professor DID make that claim: i.e., his book DOES SAY that few colonials had guns (a lot less than modern historions have assumed). Note that this does not mean he was RIGHT about this: we are only agreeing THAT HE MADE THIS CLAIM.

I think we can also agree that the university DID pressure him to resign (or face dismissal) over this issue. Note that this does not mean they were RIGHT to do so.

--Uncle Ed 15:16, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Indeed, the only substantive part of the book that was ever factually discredited was his citation of "San Francisco" for certain probate records that turned out to be for Contra Costa County, even though they were labelled at top "San Francisco." The data analysis differences cited by Lindgren and Heather constituted only a small portion of Bellesiles research. His work was not only replicated by others, who quibbled large and small with the results, but were actually preceded by an earlier author who drew much the same conclusion - gun ownership was relatively rare in ordinary households. The Lindgren article, and the Emory University critque, principally take Bellesiles to task for failing to accurately cite his sources, to mis-atrreibuting sources, at one point arguably plagiarizing Jones' research on probates and wills and generally sloppy scholarship. Other than a handful of "counting" differences, Lindren makes no substantive objection to Bellesiles data. Lindren and Heather used only 10% of the data set used by Bellesiles. The critique amounts to three or four paragraphs out of the entire book. The balance of the book has gone almost entirely unchallenged. For example, the ineffectiveness of the miltia is attested to by countless missives from commanding generals from Morgan to Washington himself. The "myth" of the frontier rifleman at the Battle of New Orleans is given up by Jackson's own reports which reported that the muskets and guns faied to inflict any serious damage and that it was the artillery that won the day. The contemporary reports on the lack of weapons among militiamen are there for anyone to see and are uncontested - if they had all these guns, where were they when they reported for duty? If they were such expert marksmen with such extensive experience, why do all the revolutionary commanders decry the complete innefectiveness of the recruits to fire a weapon let alone hit anything? Virtually none of his book was actually contradicted - but he was pilloried for failing to produce his notes and for arguably passing off someone elses data as his own. That's a far cry from being wrong on the central thesis - but it is more than enough grounds to dismiss a University professor.

The inability to purchase weapons or find anyone to make them is in the notes of the Continental Congress as well as numerous contemporary reports that cite as the reason the British policy of surpressing manufacturing in the colonies, depriving the colonies of any proper gunsmiths or manufacturers. Not one cannon foundry existed in the entire nation. Making gunpowder assumed a "Manhattan Project" secrecy and scale so desperate was the need.

Don't confuse losing his job with the book being wrong - they are largely unconnected. His atrocious handling of the pubicity fiasco was the main reason they wanted him gone. As for withdrawing the prize - the plagiarism charge was the most damning one - not the innacuracy of the book, which the Bancroft Committee said they had no view of. That Gary Wills would pile on when the right wing makes it clear they are after Bellesiles should shock no one.

Please, anyone who cares about the facts, read Prof Lindgren's article detailing just a few dozen of the incredible 'errors' in Bellesiles. (Lindgren is a self-identfied liberal and gun control advocate and contrary to the implications of Jon Wiener has NO connection to the NRA.) Bellesiles cited a 1628 order for 100 guns for 100 new colonists as a 1630 census of 100 guns among a colony with 1000 adult male colonists. There are too many cited sources that do not say what Bellesiles claims they said for it to be accidental. And Bellesiles told questioners that he found the San Francisco probate data at the San Francisco courthouse, and only went to Contra Costa County historic center after researchers discovered the SF records were destroyed in 1906. And the Contra Costa County data on San Francisco Co. letterhead no way matches the figures Bellesiles published for San Francisco in his book. Bellesiles told people he found most of his probate data on microfilm in the National Archives in East Point GA and when researchers discovered there were no probate data on microfilm in the National Archives, Bellesiles told them with a straight face that now he remembered going to thirty or forty courthouses around the country and digging out the data on paper. Well, when the data could be found, the gun ownership figures were much higher than what Bellesiles reported. On the Bowden Hall Flood, the University reported that only a set of photos of Greece were lost in spite of nearly every office suffering water damage. Bellesiles told at least three mutually exclusive versions of how his notes were tossed out (after telling folks third parties tossed the notes while he was in England, he told others he threw the notes out when he returned from England and Bellesiles told Jim Lindgren he had boxed the notes and put them in his attic.) There was no record of Bellesiles bringing any paperwork to the disaster team set up to handle salvage after the flood. And Bellesiles was on campus from 2 April when the flood occurred to mid May when he left for England. We have Columbia University revoking the Bancroft Prize for Arming America--the first time the Bancroft Prize was ever revoked. Even scholars who were ardent self proclaimed leftists and gun control supporters and who said they wished Bellesiles was right, came away denouncing Bellesiles as a fraud. Gary Wills was an enthusiastic supporter of Arming America before he realized he had been had: his disillusion with Bellesiles is no more evidence of a vast right wing conspiracy than Lindgren's disillusion is proof of a vast left wing conspiracy. The fact that some feel the need to either defend Bellesiles or attack his critics speaks volumes about the polarization of the gun control debate.Naaman Brown (talk) 22:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

"violated basic norms of acceptable scholarly conduct. ... the judgment to rescind the Bancroft Prize was based solely on the evaluation of the questionable scholarship of the work and had nothing to do with the book's content or the author's point of view" [1]

[edit] DFL

Dr. Michael A. Bellesiles, Ph.D., DFL - what is this? Dab page does not seem to be informative... Badgerpatrol 00:48, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What happened to him?

Does anyone know where Bellesiles is now and if he's writing any more books on this subject? He seems to have vanished off the face of the Earth.

Good riddance. Lawyer2b 06:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias Entry

I've read the book and the critics. This article is unbalanced. It does not give Belleiles side of the controversy. That said, I found most of his work to be quite convincing, especially his assessment of the militia. Untrained soldiers are no match for trained soldiers no matter how motivated. As for the heavy presents or absents of guns in early America, I find his argument convincing. Guns probably were present in greater quantities on the frontier and on farms, but, in the settled cities, villages and towns, where most of the people were, there probably was not much gun ownership. Even today, if anyone bothered to take a census and if those queried were honest, (something the book doesn't address, how many lied and said they didn't have a gun) I would expect gun owners to be only a minority of the population. Belleiles, book can be read as a condemnation of gun ownership, but it can also be read as simply a theoretical assessment of gun ownership in early America based on limited information. It does not surprise me that gun ownership went up as a matter of mass production, advertisement, and a lowering of the price, that's how we got cars.

I guess I don't understand all the fuss, we are all well aware that all countries have mythological pasts, why are we surprised to find them in our own culture. It doesn't make you a "bad guy."

I use Wikipedeia, even in the face of opposition from my colleagues who assert that the articles are unbalanced opinion and not necessarily fact. A conscious and informed reader should be able to sort out the real from the myth, this article is not balanced and gives fodder to those who slight this valuable site

joeman

This fellow's notability derives from the fact that a fair and thorough process has discredited him as a scholar. That seems to have been buried in a flood of minutia about his work before he was discredited. Lou Sander 14:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the comment about NPOV> Are there any defenses of his book published after the problem became known? If so, they must be cited. 14:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Untrained soldiers are no match for trained soldiers no matter how motivated.

Someone has never heard of Iraq. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 22:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You know, with just the switch of one letter "Bellesiles" becomes "Belleslies". Interesting. Lawyer2b 03:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Arming America 2.jpg

Image:Arming America 2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Bellesiles2.jpg

Image:Bellesiles2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ethan Allen.jpg

Image:Ethan Allen.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Lethal Imagination.jpg

Image:Lethal Imagination.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

[edit] Fix the lead, please

Love him or hate him, the key fact about this fellow is that he resigned under pressure after an investigation by his university. This fact is covered in the article, but it needs to be mentioned in the lead. Lou Sander 13:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

OK. What do you think?--Hi540 21:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a big improvement. The winning of the Bancroft Prize and its subsequent rescinding also probably belong in the lead. One could replace "award winning" with "Bancroft Prize-winning" and put something in about its withdrawal, hopefully including a date or at least a year. With the undeniable facts about the fellow's troubles unequivocally presented in the lead, his critics and supporters can have their disputes in the body of the article. Lou Sander 03:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Will this do?---- Hi540 (talk) 19:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Arming America.jpg

Image:Arming America.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)