Talk:Menorah (Temple)

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I was wondering if anyone had any information on the Menorah's use in Christian traditions? In Iceland, where I come from, you can see electric versions of these in as much as half the windows of apartment blocks and such over Christmas. My grandparents and older family members have these electric versions all over the place during Christmas. Since most of our holiday traditions seem to be Germanic with some Nordic twists, am I right to assume this came from Denmark? Is the symbol still widely used there? What other Christian countries display them, and why?

Thanks in advance.


The little electric versions are becoming popular in Britain too. I think it's a little bit of a 'crossover', with Christians allowing a little 'Jewishness' (or maybe an element of 'old mysticism') back into what has become a very commercialised Christmas. (Ironic I know, but after all I have a Jewish friend who sends Christmas cards to everybody!) Christians are aware that there's some kind of Jewish festival going on during the run-up to our Christmas, and it appears to be a joyful one, not a solemn one. Now I've had a look around the pages for 'Menorah' and 'Hanukiah', but I'll instead tell you what I knew before I went digging.
In a nutshell: "There's a happy Jewish festival during the run-up to Christmas. It's called the 'Festival of Lights'. It's something to do with a miracle at the temple where the oil lasted for eight days when it shouldn't have. You're supposed to put the menorah to shine outside".
I'll have a little Menorah on my windowsill this Christmas. I know it means a different thing to me than it does to Jewish people, but I just hope that Jews do not mis-interpret this as 'stealing' the menorah into our religion (don't forget that Moses meets the burning bush in our religion too :-), and take offence where none is intended. 160.84.253.241 15:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Re-do

No offense, but I found the article to be full of contradictory and redundant passages, so I did a considerable amount of editing and re-writing. Benami 02:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Sponsianus 21:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)== Locator ==

The very original menorah is in the Vatican Treasury.

I have heard that myth before, I would be great if you could find a source. Personally I have trouble believe that. The very original menorah (the one by tradition was made by Moses) was probably lost in 586 BC during the destruction of the first temple. Even it survived and was returned by Cyrus, it still would have been lost during Antiochus IV Epiphanes plundering of the temple in 167 BC. Still even if it (or at least the one on the arch of titus) made it to the Vatican it is unlikely to still be there after the Vatican's turbulent history. Jon513 15:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the reference to Procopius, that the menorah was brought back to (Byzantine) Jerusalem is wrong. AFAIK he only said that another relic taken from the Vandals, the so called "true cross" of Christ (it was of course nothing of the sort) was sent back to the Patriarch of Jerusalem by emperor Justinian, and it has been suggested that the menorah was brought there at the same time. I fear the iconoclasts, the 8th century Byzantine movement that destroyed most of their 3D religious sculptures, took the menorah from Hagia Sofia and destroyed it. It wasn't there when the crusaders plundered Constantinople in 1204 AD.Sponsianus 21:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

If it ever was in Constantinople, I don't think the Iconoclasts would have destroyed it. The Iconoclasts limited their destruction to depictions--both in sculpture and painting--of patriarchs, prophets, and saints, in addition to God, Jesus etc. They based they're objections on the Commandment forbidding graven images. As in Judaism, something like the Menorah would not have caused offense. Nor would have crosses without corpus or other more abstract symbols and shapes. --Mikhelos 05:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BC/BCE AD/CE

Why do Scholars find it more appropriate to use BCE and CE rather than BC and AD in relation to the Jews? BC means "Before Christ" and Christ was a Jew!! I really am curious as to why they prefer the one over the other. Kitty2008 20:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

See WP:MOSDATE and please do not change era notation without consensus. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
It's important (for puposes of this discussion) to understand that Christ was not Jesus of Nazareth's last name, but rather is a title derived from a Greek word literally meaning "the anointed one." This corresponds to the Hebrew "Messiah." In other words, "Jesus Christ" literally means "Jesus the Annointed One." Since Judaism fundamentally rejects the assertion that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, some scholars consider the implied use of the "Christ" title inappropriate to that context. Similarly, "AD" is short for "Anno Domini," latin for "in the year of our Lord." Judaism does not, of course, consider Jesus of Nazareth as "our lord," presenting much the same problem with that term. On a slightly more semantic note, while it is true the Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew, so are many other famous people. From a purely Jewish perspective, it could be argued that there's no better rationale to mark time as before or after Jesus of Nazareth than, say, Sandy Koufax. --Clubjuggle 21:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, but I must say that everyone has their own opinion. I believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and therefore, the Christ. Kitty2008 17:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a shame that this issue can sometimes become divisive, when it should actually unite us. Please do not take our counting years from the birth of Jesus as a sign of disrespect. Rather, we count the years from the date when one of your finest began his mission to rescue us gentiles from Paganism. Of course, the Jews had already been 'on side' for thousands of years, so you didn't need a messiah. But we did. Go figure...79.75.147.173 18:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fate of the menorah

most of the paragraph needs to be scrapped.. It is mostly speculation. Nero had to pay his war debts. The menorah was probably melted down to pay the financiers of the jewish war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.123.106.100 (talk) 02:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Symbol of hate?

I have read that the Menorah is a symbol of Jewish racism, and that celebrating Chanukah is a commemoration of a Jewish massacre of Gentiles and is a Jewish nationalist holiday. Not knowing much about thi please can someone explain? Robert C Prenic (talk) 07:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Menorah

I added information about the nine-branched Menorah, this is the menorah people generally refer to when they are speaking English and thus should be in this article, prehaps Hanukiah should be merged into here. Epson291 (talk) 00:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

In Jewish thought the two are VERY separate things. The menorah (7 branchs) is a bibical commandment that is no currently relevant. The hannukiah is of rabbinical origin and is relevant in one holiday. To lump them together confuses the issue. We are not just talking about "Jewish" candle holders but also the commandment to make a menorah, and light it in the temple. Jon513 (talk) 00:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the "hannukiah" is that it is a modern Israeli word that has only a century of use. Menorah is the word generally used in the English speaking word to apply to a Chanukah candelabrum, and Menorah refers to a Chanukah Menorah more then a Temple Menorah. I don't see why this article can't be sufficently improved to clarify both uses of the term "menorah". And, they are not totally seperate things, the Chanukah menorah is the temple menorah with 2 extra branches for each night of Chanukah. Epson291 (talk) 09:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Since there are some people who would search for menorah when they want the article Hanukiah there is a disambig notice on top. An encyclopedia is not an dictionary - it is not here to clarify "terms" but to explain ideas. One article should explain one idea. When there are people with same name there are different articles about them. When words have multiple meanings there are multiple articles (egg (food), egg (biology)) even when there are similarties with them. I know that a menorah and a hunukiah look alike but they are not the same. You cannot use a hanuikah in the Temple; you cannot use a menorah or hanukah. A menorah have very strict requiremnts of what it has to look like (pure gold, the right amount of knobs and decorations), a hanukiah can look like anything and is very much a reflection of modern influences. In fact, I would say that there is very little middle ground between the two. Jon513 (talk) 17:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
But the thing, when people search for "menorah" they more often referring to a menorah for Chanukah then a seven branched menorah. They shouldn't have to be then manually directed somewhere else. Wikipedia policy is that the most common use for that term should be its page or else, a disambigation page (ex. egg). For a Google test, searching for Menorah Chanukah OR Hanukkah which yields 1,100,000 results whereas searching for Menorah Temple OR HaMikdash OR Mikdash yields only 278,000 results. Epson291 (talk) 07:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I understand what you are trying to do with the google search but those searches don't mean anything. (The google default is always OR, so all you showed is that the words "Chanukah" and "Hanukkah" is more common than "Temple" and "HaMikdash" and "Mikdash". which doesn't show anything about the use of menorah).
I am glad that you agree that they must be separate articles. The only question left is what the names should be. I suppose there are a few options:
option 1
  • Menorah is for the temple menorah
  • Hanukiah refers to the candalabra used on hanucha.
option 2
  • Menorah is a disambig page
  • Menorah (temple) is for the temple menorah
  • Hanukiah refers to the candalabra used on hanucha.
option 3
  • Menorah is for the candalabra used on hanucha.
  • Menorah (temple) is for the temple menorah
  • Hanukiah is redirected.
I think option one is the best. Option three is needless confusing when there is already an unabigious term (hannukiah).
I disagree that most people who would search for "menorah" want an article about relatively insignificant candalabra used once a year. The temple menorah has great Jewish symbolism much more than the Hanukiah. It is a menorah - not a hanukiah - which decorates many synagogues. Jon513 (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jon. The Menorah is the 7 branch candelabra discussed in the Torah. The Channukia something completely different. A disambiguation tag is enough to cover the confusion, but Menorah is about the 7 brancher Max613 (talk) 21:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

You're mistaken about the Google Search, click here to see the search I did is with all of the words: menorah, and with at least one of the words Chanukah Hanukkah. The default Google behaviour is not an OR. So while not perfect, a "Google test" does some to establish an argument for naming articles.
As for its importance, Chanukah menorah is fairly significant, for example County of Allegheny v. ACLU in the United States established the menorah (the nine branched one) as a 'secular' symbol do to its prevalence as a decoration in the winter season. If we agree they should seperate articles, I think a disambiguation page would suffice, and move this page to Menorah (temple). Epson291 (talk) 03:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Either way (option one or two) a person who types "menorah" for hanukiah needs to click again to get where they really want to go. With option two (the disambig page) the person who typed "menorah" to get an article about "menorah" also has to click again! I don't understand what your problem is with a disambiguation link. Jon513 (talk) 11:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Beacause the most common use of the word should be what it directs to, not the other way around and 1,100,000 results to 278,000 is quite a difference. Hanukiah is also not an English word, whereas menorah is. Epson291 (talk) 11:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it's alot more clear this way. Epson291 (talk) 12:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, I thought we were having a conversation. It is very rude to unilaterally do that before a consensus is formed. Jon513 (talk) 13:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Apolgoies, I thought we were based on its usage. Epson291 (talk) 14:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Should I propose a move instead? Epson291 (talk) 14:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the disambig is reasonable. The WP:Naming conventions guideline requires following standard English usage, and it specifically permits the "google test" as an indicator of usage. I don't think it's unreliable here. I think most English speakers would frankly have no clue what a Hanukiah is (those few aware of what a "chanukiah" is would tend to think of it in Hebrew). However, many English speakers would be aware of a Menorah and think of it as something done on Hanukah, with somewhat fewer being aware it was something done in the Temple. I've been very supportive of Hebrew terminology, especially when the literal English translation term was adopted by Christianity or academia and came to take on a very different meaning from the Jewish concept (See e.g. Sabbath and Shabbat, Tithing and Maaser Rishon, Pentecost and Shavuot, Heave offering and Terumah). But here nobody thinks of a Menorah as anything other than the Jewish concept, and there's no danger of confusion. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I would therefore support
Option 4

Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Agree with Shirahadasha. IZAK (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above assessment Epson291 (talk) 06:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
SInce nothing else is being discussed, I will move the page. Epson291 (talk) 06:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I removed this picture, while notable, it is of very poor quality. But I'm leaving it here for someone to hopefully replace with a better version. Epson291 (talk) 13:15, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

The Menorah intended for use in the Third Temple built by the Temple Institute
There is a fairly good one on the Hebrew Wikipeida Epson291 (talk) 15:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
This is a link to the English-language version of the Temple Institute's Menorah (on the Temple Institute's own web site) and it's also a very nice picture. There may be licensing issues, but perhaps the Hebrew Wikipedia has already arranged for the necessary permission. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dimensions?

Does anyone here know the dimensions of this new menorah? That might be good to add to the article. Frotz (talk) 10:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

there are no dimensions written in the Torah. What do you mean by new menorah? Jon513 (talk) 12:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
He is probably referring to the Menorah built by The Temple Institute, which until recently was on display next to the Cardo of the Old City. It is now on display near the steps leading down to the Kotel. I think that the Machon Hamikdash Menorah does deserve mention in the article. Dimensions (even from Rabinic sources) is also apropriate. I'll look them up. Max613 (talk) 17:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes. I meant the one made by the Temple Institute. While you're looking things up, would you please find out how the Temple Institute arrived at those dimensions? Frotz (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)