Talk:Men of Harlech

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The article for this song seems reasonably good. The lyrics should be moved to Wikisource? JPB 19:02, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Probably should be moved, but I'm too lazy - all that dragging and dropping! --Jpbrenna 22:11, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Should there not be a copy of the welsh lyrics on this article? Emoscopes 04:03, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but as Joshuabowman suggested, both Welsh and English lyrics should probably appear at Wikisource, not here.--Jpbrenna 04:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

None of these is the version I learned at school. I found it on another site but hesitate to post it without an attribution:

Men of Harlech (another version)

Fierce the beacon's light is flaming With its tongues of fire proclaiming Chieftains, sundered to your shaming Strongly now unite

At her call, all Arfon rallies War cries rend her hills and vallies Troop on troop, with headlong sallies Hurtle to the fight

Chiefs lie dead and wounded. Yet, where first was grounded, Freedom's flag still holds the crag; Her trumpet still is sounded.

There we'll keep her banner flying, While the pale lips of the dying Echo to our shouts defying HARLECH for the right!

Shall the Saxon army shake you Smite, pursue and overtake you? Men of Harlech, God will make you Victors, blow for blow.

The swollen rivers of Eryri Sweep the vale with flooded fury Gwalia from her mountain eryie Thunders on the foe.

Now avenging Briton, Smite as he has smitten Let your rage on history's page In Saxon blood be written.

His lance is long, but yours is longer. Strong his sword, but yours is stronger. One stroke more, and now your wronger At your feet, lies low.

The article is unclear as to which version is the original (though it seems confident in the identity of the first lyricist) or when the music or words were first written. It seems clear though theat it is of 18th or 19th century origin which makes the comment that it was "used during the Anglo-Welsh wars" completely wrong.

Cyclopaedic 09:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

And yet another version, that I learned at school, is the one starting "Men of Harlech! In the Hollow, Do ye hear like rushing billow" given on [1]. Before now, I never knew there was more than one version, so I've learned something today... --Froggienation 21:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] A possible inconsistancy... Origin of the song

Hello,

The article says the song refers to the battle with 'Owain Glyndwr' but on the 'Harlech Castle' page it says it is in reference to a battle 60 years later. Just thought you might want to check. ???

Later.

203.221.209.42 15:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I always thought it was the Roses siege. It was traditionally said to commemorate the bravery of Constable Dafydd ap Ieuan ap Einion and his men during the 7 year siege of the Castle in the War of the Roses. This is what the Harlech town website, the S4C website, the BBC, and the books I have state. I am altering the page to reflect this.

Some references: http://www.s4c.co.uk/codicanu/e_rehearsalroom_songs_menOfHarlech.shtml http://www.harlech-town.toucansurf.com/menofharlech.htm http://www.castlewales.com/menhar.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/castles/pages/harlech.shtml 'The Oxford Companion to British History David Rees, The Son of Prophecy: Henry Tudor's Road to Bosworth Dictionary of Ancient & Medieval Warfare by Matthew Bennett (2001) Winnie Czulinski, Drone On!: The High History of Celtic Music (Sound And Vision, 2004) Encyclopædia Britannica, 1911 ed The Routledge Companion to Medieval Warfare - Page 291 Black's picturesque guide to North Wales - Page 209 Black Adam and Charles, ltd - 1857

The only refs I can find which make reference to it coming from the siege against Glyndwr’s men are on the web and most appear to have got it via Wikipedia. I think this may be a modern idea. My books on Glyndwr don’t mention it.

Has anyone got some printed sources for this?

B) The lyrics listed for 1860 are incorrect. Besides the fact the Welsh and English do not correspond this web site which references the Welsh folk Museum gives an entirely different version for the 1860 English lyrics by Baker and John Jones (Talhaiarn). http://www.data-wales.co.uk/harlech2.htm

When the version first line “Glyndwr, see thy comet flaming” were first added they were unreferenced and undated: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Men_of_Harlech&oldid=10989138

Someone later said it was the translation of the 1860 version but it looks to me that it is a modern version of some kind. The lyrics don’t seem to be in Victorian or 18th century style. I can find few refs for this version on the web.

Has anyone got some sources for this? Otherwise I am going to alter the entry. --Machenphile 08:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definitely another Welsh version

The only complete Welsh version of this song I've ever heard is not included here. The first verse begins 'Harlech cafod dy baneri' (or pronounced similarly...my Cymraeg is not too great) and ends in 'Cymru fo am byth' (and no, it has no relation to the version Charlotte Church sings).

I can't actually find it on the internet, which amazes me because I've heard about three different recordings by famous choirs (including the Morriston Orpheus Choir, who all use the version I'm referring to. Perhaps someone reading this might have a hard-copy reference to it? Rob Lindsey 09:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I think the lyrics belong here

I came to learn about the song, having heard a reference to it years ago in a Monty Python sketch (where one hears a performance introduced, "Men Of Harlech, for bicycle bells only"). I think the article about a song should have all the significant lyrics. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mooncaine (talk • contribs) 05:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Too many versions

No look, this is getting out of hand. There are far too many versions set out in full in the article. Private versions such as Canadian Hussars or Wrexham FC aren't notable enough to appear in full in an article about an ancient song, though they might be mentioned. This is the English language Wikipedia and full Welsh lyrics have no place here, as they will be incomprehensible to the vast majority of readers.

In the absence of consensus about no more than three sets of lyrics considered notable, I think all of them should be removed. My suggestion, though. would be that lyrics demonstrated to have been published in mainstream songboooks with a wide circulation be retained, and the rest removed.

The really notable thing about this song is that there are so many versions, and no apparently dominant version. That is what the article should discuss. Who did write it, and with what lyrics? Cyclopaedic 19:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

→Surely it would make sense to include the (previously included) lyrics of the linked to MP3 file (the Royal Regiment of Wales version)? It would seem to make sense for no other reason but the sake of clarity of people who visit the page. Psicic 16:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

→Agreed and done. (Forgot to login first though!) Markparker 08:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)