Talk:Melencolia I

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Contents 1 Unbalanced Scale? 2 2x2 subsuares 3 unique pattern for associative magic squares of order 4 4 Written anew 5 Why the modernized spelling? 6 Hebrew version 7 Requested move 7.1 Survey 8 lost? 9 Some clean-up required?

[edit] Unbalanced Scale?

The article notes "The unbalanced scale despite lack of contained substance". The scale looks balanced to me. Also, you can't see what's in the bottom of the tray. Is this referenced anywhere other than wikipedia?

I agree: the scale is balanced. It might appear unbalanced to someone unfamiliar with the conventions of linear perspective, but if you look at at the engraving closely you'll notice that the balance indicator is pointing straight up.--BWOgilvie (talk) 22:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2x2 subsuares

notes: The following can be verified with exhaustive tests, proofed:

For all 880 magic squares of order four [1] beside the raws, columns and diagonals the following will sum to the magic constant

1. the sum of the four corners will equal
2. the sum of the inner four cells will equal to the
3. the two cells left of the four inner cells together with the two cells right of the four inner cells
4. the two cells above of the four inner cells together with the two cells below of the four inner cells

This means that if we count the 2x2 subsquares obtaind with wrap around of raws and colums all will have at least 4 such subsquares which sum to the magic constant. The distribution is like this:

120 squares have only 4 such 2x2 subsquares

520 squares have 8 such 2x2 subsquares

192 squares have 12 such 2x2 subsquares

48 squares have 16 such 2x2 subsquares

Last are called most-perfect magic squares.

[edit] unique pattern for associative magic squares of order 4

→ Associative Magic Square
→ How many magic squares are there?

Dürers square is an associative magic square. The binary representation of this square is as follows:

binary color code a div 8 = 1 →   a div 8 = 0 →   (a mod 8) div 4 = 1 →   (a mod 8) div 4 = 0 →   (a mod 4) div 2 = 1 →   (a mod 4) div 2 = 0 →   a mod 2 = 1 →   a mod 2 = 0 →

values 0 to 15 15 02 01 12 04 09 10 07 08 05 06 11 03 14 13 00 Melancholia I

same square  with binary color code

You can see that each of the colors occur only two times in each row, each column and in each of the diagonals. If we look at the definition of an associative magic square we can see that for every cell a all colors differ in the symmetrical cell of cell a:

a) changing "a div 8 = 1 with "a mod 2 = 1" and vice versa would give the square:

15       2       8       5
 4       9       3      14
 1      12       6      11
10       7      13       0

If we "change" only the weights for the binary representation we will have 4! permutations and the values "0" and "15" will be always fixed.
b) changing "a mod 2 = 1 with "a mod 2 = 0" and vice versa would give the square:

14       3       0      13
 5       8      11       6
 9       4       7      10
 2      15      12       1

We can see that doing this there are 16 times more possibilities. Together we would have 4!*16 squares. The number considering the Frénicle standard form is 48. (It can be seen easily that all 8 transitions - rotations and transpositions are represented in the "pattern"). Gangleri | Th | T 21:33, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Written anew

Albrecht Dürer's engraving Melancholia I (originally known by Dürer as Melencolia I) is an allegorical depiction of the symptoms of melancholy, now better known as depression.

what does it mean : "known by Durer as melencolia"? Researchers apparently agree that Durer was aware that such a spelling is neither german nor latin. Also "allegorical depiction of symptoms": perhaps it would be better to leave that to the care of the medical profession and to say something about symbols.

My redaction: Albrecht Durer's engraving known as Melancholia I is an allegorical composition which supports various interpretations. The title comes from the deviantly spelled word 'melencolia' appearing within the engarving itself. The most obvious interpretation takes the image to be about the depressive or melancholy state and accordingly explains various elements of the picture. Among them most conspicuous are:...

Added a link to D. Finkelstein's impressive exegesis. www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/finkelstein/DurerCode050524.pdf al 09:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

- I agree with most of your points here, but Melancholy is originally Greek (melan=black, choly=bile I think), although it has an "a" in Greek too. The OED lists by my count 16 English spellings for "melancholy" and "deviant" is I think an inappropriate description for any spelling in any European language in 1514 - no dictionaries, no spellcheck. I have changed it to "unusual" Johnbod 03:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the modernized spelling?

Shouldn't we use the name Dürer gave his own work? Aleta 04:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I tend to think so (see just above), but it might be arguable the other is now the commonest spelling in EnglishJohnbod

An incorrect spelling even if it is a common spelling, is still an incorrect spelling —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.198.240.254 (talk) 09:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

"Unusual" and "modern" spelling in what language? There was a more or less standard transliteration of greek words and european languages, which used the latin alphabet, tended to respected it. Durer's spelling does not fit anywhere and he certainly knew it. 'Unusual' does not seem appropriate to qualify something which only a simplistic view could take to be an error. Perhaps this should be made clear. Mentioning Finkelstein's hypothesis that it is an anagarm would not be wiki-correct. 91.92.179.156 16:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not an incorrect spelling; it is an archaic spelling. There is a big difference. The title is Melencolia I. That's what Dürer named it and that's what it even says on the engraving. I requested a move at WP:RM because it looks silly right now.

Reginmund 18:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew version

The Hebrew version contains an illustration of the famous Magic Square which appears in the engraving. The illustration was done by me (he.User:Noon is my User Page), and is released to the Public Domain. --85.250.24.90 11:30, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Who asked for a fricking Hebrew version? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.198.240.254 (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Requested move

This article has been renamed from Melancholia I to Melencolia I as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 17:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lost?

The article says the piece was lost in a fire. But it's a print, surely there must be other copies remaining? Can this please be clarified?--24.86.252.26 20:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

correct - now removed. There are a fairly large number of copies, though few really early/good ones. Johnbod 21:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some clean-up required?

• "It has been the subject of more modern interpretation than almost any other image in art."

This is (practically) unverifiable.

• "It should be noted that reproduction usually makes the image seem darker...and in particular affects the facial expression of the female figure, which is rather more cheerful than in most reproductions."

I don't think 'cheerful' is a neutral term. Also, this really needs a citation as, I recall, some interpretations based on the humours understand the dark face to be intentional.

• "Instead it seems more likely that the "I" refers to the first of the three types of melancholia defined by the German humanist writer Cornelius Agrippa. In this type, Melencholia Imaginativa, which he held artists to be subject to, 'imagination' predominates over 'mind' or 'reason'...the most obvious interpretation takes the image to be about the depressive or melancholy state."

It seems contradictory to side with the 'Melencolia Imaginative' interpretation and then class melancholy and depression as the same. Camarthist (talk) 19:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Added an old reference to strengthen the dubious claim.

There is a good article on Melancholy that could help to smooth the problem.

Imho there should be a section on Interpretations; either by authors (eg Panofky, Doorly, Finkelstein..) or by themes (alchemical, kabbalistic, Jungian...), with brief summaries and refs(links); the one given currently should go, of course.

Perhaps something should be said about the composition in general i.e. elements on left/right high/low etc, and also a fuller list of elements.

al (talk) 22:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)