Talk:McLaren

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[edit] McLaren naming

Shouldn't this article's title be the actual name of the team - "Team McLaren Mercedes" ? Or if the sponsor doesn't belong (since it could change - like Scuderia Ferrari, where Marlboro is left out) it could just be "Team McLaren" or simply "McLaren." The purpose of the article is to inform everybody that McLaren is a racing team - the title should just be the name. Opinions? Rdsmith4 22:45, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well McLaren isn't just a racing team, there is also the McLaren Group and the McLaren Cars company (both of which I have created articles for). Personally, I think "McLaren" should be turned into a disambig page for all of the McLaren articles.
We need to keep in mind that although this article only covers Formula One at the moment, McLaren has also competed in Indy, Can Am and the 24 Hours of Le Mans (with the McLaren F1 GTR). The name of the article should reflect this. From their website i've deduced that in Indy and Can Am they were called "Team McLaren". I can't find their official name for their Le Mans team or the F1 team before it was "Team McLaren Mercedes", but I can't imagine that they were called anything other than "Team McLaren". Therefore, I think that "Team McLaren" is the best place to move this article. Alternatively we could move it to "McLaren (racing team)" which is just as correct but to me, doesn't seem to read as nicely. Just my opinions. SamH 11:44, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Oops, I now realise that you have just added some info about Indy, Can Am etc. Note to self: always read article directly before commenting on it. SamH 11:52, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have just made McLaren into a disambig and will move this article to Team McLaren in a moment. Thanks for your opinion. Rdsmith4 05:32, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The team was never called Team McLaren. When Bruce McLaren founded the company, it was called Bruce McLaren Motor Racing, the same designation it used as an entrant (until sponsorship came along, thus becoming Yardley McLaren, Marlboro Team Texaco and Marlboro Team McLaren throughout the 70s), while the racing car sales business was called McLaren Cars Ltd. This disappeared when McLaren stopped building Indycars.
When Ron Dennis bought McLaren and merged it into his Project Four Racing in 1980, the new company's name was McLaren International. When Mercedes bought into the company and had it branch out, the racing team became McLaren Racing. The entrant's name in '81 was Marlboro McLaren, becoming Honda Marlboro McLaren in 1988, and later Marlboro McLaren Peugeot, Marlboro McLaren Mercedes and now, West McLaren Mercedes (this is the official name on the F1WC entry list). Never Team McLaren, which is just a trademark for merchandising purposes.
Therefore, I propose this entry be merged with that of McLaren Racing, under that name, and that Team McLaren starts referring to that page. --Pc13 13:47, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and I might as well say this, McLaren never entered the Indy 500 and Le Mans with a factory team. McLaren Cars used to build customer cars for the Indy 500/USAC Indycars in the early 70s, the Penske team being the closest there was to a proper "works" effort. The orange McLaren Cars entry, as well as the Sunoco car, was run from Roger Penske's shop. As for Le Mans, the Ueno Clinic winning car from '95 was entered from Japan by Kokusai Racing, while the rest of the cars between '95 and '98 were run by Ray Bellm's GTC Racing, David Price's DPR, Fabien Giroix, Jean-Luc Maury-Laribière, BMW Motorsport (with Bigazzi and Schnitzer) and Parabolica Racing.
I'm not sure any conclusion was reached above. It seems to me that McLaren as an entity produces the Mercedes SLR McLaren and it also has a racing team known as Team McLaren. The history mentioned above is interesting, but in the present day the company is not that different to Renault or BMW, being a manafacturer and an F1 team. I think McLaren should point to the McLaren Group (as do Renault and BMW to their companies) and that Team McLaren should point to the F1 team. Anyone else got any thoughts? Tibi08 08:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Mercedes are not a sponsor, they are a part owner of the team (40% I think)
DaimlerChrysler is 40% owner of McLaren Group and hence its Team McLaren subsidiary. Mark83 21:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a serious error in these pages as there is no mention of the split between what is now called McLaren Performance Technology (of Livonia, MI-the adopted home of Bruce McLaren. See: http://www.mclarenperformance.com ) and McLaren Cars. Linamar Corp of Canada is the owner of the former McLaren Engines group established by Bruce McLaren in Livonia.

[edit] Bruce's nationality

I object to the description that Bruce McLaren was "a New Zealander by birth." Bruce was a New Zealander by any measure, and the words "by birth" give the impression that he had adopted another nation for his identification. (210.86.33.219)

[edit] New logo?

The current uploaded logo is never used (is it even official?). I think that this logo is better: http://www.mclaren.com/mediaroom/presspack/tmm.gif ?

I agree, Wikipedia was the first time I ever saw that logo, and I've never seen it anywhere else (although I do think it looks quite good!). Perhaps it would be best to change it to the logo suggested above? doctorvee 17:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics table

In the 1960s/70s, works and privateers drivers and team designations are all mixed in. They should be separated. Any suggestions? I propose italics for privateers. --Pc13 18:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Teamwork

I've heard Kimi & David made the longest-lasting duo in F1's mod age, @6yr thru '00. Confirm & include? Trekphiler 00:27, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Mika and David, actually. Also, McLaren's involvement with Hugo Boss constitutes the longest-standing sponsorship deal in F1. Sbz5809 08:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Replacement

There are a lot of wrongly licenced images (GFDL claimed when clearly All Rights Reserved applies) used in the article. I've started to go through and flag some of them up. I've also replaced some Fair Use images with freely licenced alternatives, [Image:Mclaren_m7a_1967.jpg] with [Image:McLarenBruce19690801.jpg] for example. Please revert if there was a reason for using the former image, but as far as I could tell they illustrate the article equally well and therefore the freely licenced alternative seems the sensible option. Alexj2002 22:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Records

I have a feeling that "Records" section is incorrectly named or at least "Most" should be removed from record names since these are not the best records in F1 history.

You have a point - Ferrari have overtaken most of the ones they did hold, haven't they? I wasn't really thinking earlier. I don't really see the point of the section unless they are records. -- Ian Dalziel 17:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Records sections like this caused conflict on the Toyota F1 page - some of them largely repeat the info box at the top Lradrama 15:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Juan Pablo Montoya still on this page

I think that Juan Pablo Montoya should be removed from this page. He doesn't even race for the team anymore. Even if his contracted has not expired, he now has no relation with Team Mclaren. Baseracer 16:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Interesting logic. Margaret Thatcher isn't Prime Minister anymore, so should we remove every reference to her premiership from Wikipedia? Mark83 21:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but you misunderstand me. I wanted Montoya of the CURRENT drivers for team Mclaren, not the past driver list. He should not be with the other two drivers on top of current drivers.Baseracer 21:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last season without a win

When was the last season without a win for McLaren? 86.17.211.129 23:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I seem to remember from last weekend's coverage 13 years being mentioned - but I could be making that up. I'll try and check it. Mark83 23:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


1994, 1995, 1996 was the last seasons that mclaren have not won any races in, following the departure of Ayrton Senna to Williams.Mono-82 21:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

In panoramio.com have a very interesting photos gpl about the mclaren presentation 15 january 2007 in valencia, tags formula 1, valencia, nocturna

[edit] Suggested Merge

I've suggested merging McLaren Racing into McLaren. I can see that there's a technical distinction between the two, but McLaren Racing as an article (a very small stub) is unlikely to be expanded, and the info there at the moment just overlaps with McLaren anyway. The way i see it: info about racing will go into McLaren, and things about business into McLaren Group, i can't see the need for a page in between the two. What do people think? Spute 22:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Support - Undoubtedly McLaren Racing (formerly McLaren International) has a great racing pedigree. However as Spute suggests, that racing pedigree is better described at McLaren. And there are two options:
  1. McLaren Racing stays a stub forever
  2. McLaren Racing is expanded to be more or less a duplication of McLaren
Neither of these are sensible conclusions. Mark83 22:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Support' and set up redirect form McLaren Racing to McLaren. Alexj2002 16:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Done Spute 20:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] B-Class

Just passing through with my two-penn'orth. Coverage is fine, covers all the F1 bases - bit short on areas outside F1?, structure wanders a bit. Extremely short on references. Hope this is of some help! 4u1e 18:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Vandalism?

Someone changed the numbers in the sentence "The fact that Coulthard qualified third for its first race, the French Grand Prix, gave the team hope of a better end to the season which was realised when Räikkönen took a famous victory at the 2004 Belgian Grand Prix ahead of the seemingly unstoppable Ferrari of Michael Schumacher whom won 11 of the 17 races that year" to '13 of the 18'. Could someone verify this and determine whether it's a correction or vandalism?

"13 of the 18" is correct. DH85868993 01:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clearly not NPOV

"2000 was another closely-fought season, but ultimately Ferrari's Michael Schumacher prevailed."

"In 2001, Mika Häkkinen dropped off the pace in comparison with Coulthard, although neither driver could compete with the now dominant combination of Michael Schumacher and Ferrari."

"This was realised when Räikkönen won the 2004 Belgian Grand Prix ahead of the seemingly unstoppable Ferrari of Michael Schumacher, who won 13 of the 18 races that year, currently the record for most wins in a single season."

"with one source[6] even stating that McLaren had built such a strong team that the only way to increase their championship hopes was to hire double world champion Michael Schumacher"

This is clearly not a neutral point of view. They should be edited, or else deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abresas (talk • contribs) 08:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

Go ahead and delete them. See also WP:BB --dionyziz 14:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC).
Precisely, what is NPOV POV about "2000 was another closely-fought season, but ultimately Ferrari's Michael Schumacher prevailed"? The other examples seem fairly inoffensive to me, too, although I suppose "seemingly unstoppable" might be too fawning. On the other hand, Schumacher did seem pretty unstoppable at the time in question. Shouldn't that be said? GreenGourd (talk) 21:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC) (edited to correct silly mistake, pointed out below—thanks!) GreenGourd (talk) 22:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I take it GreenGourd you mean "what is NPOVPOV about..." and if so I sort of agree. The tone and vagueness is perhaps the problem rather than the neutrality. Is a 19 point gap out of a possible 170 (i.e. over 10% of possible points, or two wins with two non-scores) close? Perhaps saying that again the championship was fought between McLaren & Ferrari/Hakkinen & Schumacher but ultimately MS prevailed. 2001 was dominated by MS (60-odd point margin advantage) so I'm this could fairly easily be sourced. The last one is stated as opinion not fact, with citation, and if it were changed to say "with F1 Racing magazine even stating" would definitely be perfectly acceptable. AlexJ (talk) 21:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yardley McLaren in 2004?

I was looking at the Yardley McLaren picture and notice the description below was "The McLaren M19C, with its distinctive Yardley sponsorship, being demonstrated during the 2004 Canadian GP weekend." Since I don't know when the picture was really taken, I didn't edit itLinkinstreet 13:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The documentation for the picture says it was taken on June 11, 2004. I imagine the car was being demonstrated as a historic car, not a current one. -- DH85868993 13:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Correct, the data shows it as being digitised in June 11, 2004. It also shows it as being digitised by a Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL which a digital camera not a scanner, indicating it was almost certainly originally taken at the same time it was digitised. The flickr source where the image came from says the same thing. AlexJ 16:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Added to that, the driver is wearing a modern, full-face helmet, and the car is running on Avon rubber, neither of which were avaiable in period. Pyrope 08:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British or German?

I see some German journos and MB employees are starting to complain that the Union Flag/God Save The Queen accompanies McLaren on the podium when MB own a large stake of the team and supply the engine. Well, the team has seen engine manufacturers come and go for 30 years and has been based in England all that time. Most of the techies are Brits. The engine was initially Ilmor (British - bought by MB) and is still designed and built in Brixworth, England. The factory and all related facilities are in Woking, England. It is run and controlled by Brits. Not very German is it...?  ;o) 86.17.211.191 20:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Well the DaimlerChrysler relationship is closer than any that's gone before. However all your points regarding Britishness are valid. If DaimlerChrysler were to purchase 100% of the group, they would be justified in re-registering the team (even though the car would still be a largely British effort). Mark83 21:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
According to what I've read, this was a none issue until Bild publish it. And AFAIK, MB personnels like Haug said that it does not matter as the team is multicountry. Considering that Bruce McLaren was a New Zealander, he did not register the team as a New Zealand team, but rather as a British team. Linkinstreet 23:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It's based in England. The chassis is British. Ilmor is a British designed and built engine. All the technical staff are British. Not sure how it could possibly be called German. Why don't Mercedes start their own F1 team? I guess because they don't want to spend 5 years at the back of the grid!

[edit] Number of Fastest Laps

There seems to be some disagreement over McLaren's total number of fastest laps following the 2007 Monaco Grand Prix:

  • www.mclaren.com says 132
  • www.forix.com says 130
  • www.formula1.com says 129

Any confirmation for any of these? DH85868993 09:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Short of counting each FL and coming up with our own total, I don't know how we can confirm these with three reputable sources all saying three different things. AlexJ 11:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Formula One Results

Should a new page be created for McLaren's results? Years 1990-1998 were removed due to article size,yet the Ferrari page has these years under 'recent' results. chem_tom 17:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Now being discussed on the WP:F1 talk page. AlexJ 18:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too detailed?

I think the amount of detail for the 2007 season is far too much for this article - it should go into the 2007 Formula One season article where necessary. Perhaps some of the 2006 season detail is also excessive. Can someone prune it? I'd do it myself but it's locked.--216.82.251.227 15:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think maybe the idea is that people coming here will just want to hear about McLaren in 2007, and not have to weed through the entire F1 page. Charles 01:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Towards the start of the season, I did pull the race-by-race descriptions out. However they're still being added by people who maybe slightly over eager to ensure that WP is totally up-to-date. The Race-by-race stuff belongs in the 2007 Formula One Season and come the end of the season anything relevant can be moved to there, and then the section can be pruned significantly to bring it in line with other seasons. AlexJ 09:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2007 espionage - correction please

At the moment the article says McLaren has been "excluded from the 2007 Constructors' Championship". This is wrong - they've simply had their points wiped (though in effect this does mean they cannot win this season). Can someone fix this?--216.82.251.227 15:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're wrong - the team has been excluded. mattbuck 15:59, 14

September 2007 (UTC)

Autosport.com says that they lost their points, not that they were excluded. It also reports that they could have points at the end of the season, which I don't think would be possible if they were excluded from the constructors championship. The BBC also refer to it as points deduction rather than exclusion. It's possible they weren't being that careful over their wording though so it might be best to check the World Motor Sport Council transcripts, which should be available midday on Wednesday, to see the official wording Kathy Giffin 20:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if the report which you linked is the one which you are basing your comments on, but that one relates to the Hungarian Grand Prix, not to the recent WMSC judgement. Pyrope 20:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The Autosport page I linked is the one that I based my comments on. The article is talking about the Hungarian Grand Prix but it also refers to the WMSC judgement

"The appeal, which was lodged swiftly after the penalty was handed down, had been expected to be dropped in the wake of McLaren losing their constructors' championship points over Formula One's spying affair.

However, the matter was slightly complicated by the fact that the team could have several million dollars taken off their fine if they had enough constructors' championship points to stay ahead of Ferrari at the end of the season"

Another of their pages reports the quote below though. Kathy Giffin 21:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Sounds as though that article was written by the tea boy... How on Earth could they possibly have sufficient points to overhaul Ferrari by the end of the season? Pyrope 21:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a poorly explained explanation of how their fine works. Their fine will be deducted the prize money FOM (that's Bernie's company) would have paid McLaren if they kept, and were still eligible to get, WCC points. If they would have finished ahead of Ferrari had it not been for the exclusion then FOM will "pay" them the first place prize money (it actually will go to the FIA who will reduce McLaren's fine by the same amount). Should their virtual points total be behind Ferrari then they will have the equivalent of second place prize money paid off their fine. AlexJ 21:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, they can't score anymore points. The FIA Statement on the Formula 1 Official Web-site says, "The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructors' points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championship and the team can score no point for the remainder of the season ." sdgjake 20:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if the wording could be changed slightly to reflect the official press release and include a reference straight from the source, the World Motor Sport Council's press release on the FIA site. I tried to change it but I can't.

However, following the emergence of new evidence understood to have been provided by Alonso and De la Rosa ref, the FIA heard the case again on September 13. The second hearing resulted in McLaren being stripped of all 2007 Constructors' Championship points and excluded from scoring any more points for the remainder of the season. ref They were also fined $100 million and obliged to submit their 2008 chassis for scrutiny. Their drivers' position in the Drivers' Championship are unaffected ref.

In a press statement given shortly after the decision was announced a visibly disappointed Ron Dennis said he did "not accept that we deserved to be penalised in this way" ref. Responding to media reports during the weekend following the decision, FIA President Max Mosley maintained that "any fine had to be large enough to deter similar behaviour in the future whilst remaining proportionate to the resources of the team" ref

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kathy Giffin (talk • contribs) 00:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of points

I saw an anon removed them and I was going to hit the undo but then I thought maybe this is something that should be discussed. As it will be a huge thing if they finish ahead of Ferarri in points but don't win due to the exclusion, I think their inclusion /will/ end up being relevent (And they are getting financial credit for the points haul, after all). Whats the general view? Narson 09:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that it would be relevant to include the points they would have won and their would-have-been constructors' position, since it's a measure of how successful the team has been over the years. Yes, they were excluded, and it should be noted that their official position was dead last with 0 points, but it will look really odd if they get a drivers' champion and have no points. Add it in ref tags maybe. mattbuck 10:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree that, as their financial penalty largely depends on how many phantom points they score this season, the points tally is of interest. However, to state that they finished first is a touch disengenuous as technically they aren't even in the WCC any more this year. Maybe a footnote would be the best way forward, to state that had they still been included this total would have been enough to win. On a similar point, as they have been excluded (i.e. kicked out) their official position is that they have no official position. They aren't in last place in the WCC, as they aren't even in the WCC. Pyrope 10:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

while on this topic, i've amended the points to 203 points. 109 from alonso, 109 from hamilton, and deducting 15 points from the hungarian grand prix where hamilton finished first (10pts) and alonso 4th (5pts) correct me if i'm wrong :) Oahiyeel 08:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MP4/11 and MP4-12

Is there a reson for all McLaren car since 1997 having "-" instead of "/" to separate the number?Joaopais 19:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I have this idea in the back of my head that someone (Ron Dennis?) decided that the "-" was "more aesthetically pleasing", but I couldn't point you to a reference for that. -- DH85868993 (talk) 12:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. I've done some research, though. According to McLaren's official website, in the Timeline (see History) you can check out that the first McLaren with a "-" was the McLaren MP4-16 of 2001. In this article the cars start having a "-" in 1996. I'll change them. Joaopais 18:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
The 1996/1997 change would have made sense as that's when Marlboro ended their sponsorship deal, and MP4 went from standing for Marlboro Project 4 to McLaren Project 4, however since McLaren make a clear distinction between the two in their timelines, I'm inclined to believe that they are correct in saying 2001. As a check, you could ask someone with a copy of the 1997 & 2001 Autocourse annuals to check (there's a list of people who'd be willing to check it here). AlexJ (talk) 20:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] McLaren the most Overrated Team

Although McLaren were dominant in the 1980's (remember the Honda powered McLarens with Senna and Prost, they were in a class of their own), winning until 1991, basically in the last 15 years they have won the championship (WCC) only once, in 1998 (Mika Hakkinen won the drivers titles in 1998 and 1999). In the last 9 years they have won nothing, despite having the largest budget in F1 (or equal largest). Clearly they are the most overrated team in F1.
Eddyholland (talk) 10:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The talk page (and Wikipedia in general) is not the place for expressing opinions on the subject matter. There are hundreds of web forums where I'm sure your opinions would be appreciated but this page is intended for discussion on improving the article. AlexJ (talk) 12:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Martin Whitmarsh CEO?

As far as I remember, isn't Martin Whitmarsh a CEO of some sort? I think he is the CEO of the team? Thats what it says on his page. I will edit it in and await comments. Cadan ap Tomos (talk) 21:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

He was captioned on ITV's qualifying show today as "CEO, McLaren Formula One". I assume this would be McLaren Racing. AlexJ (talk) 22:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This is what it says on the his WP page, and he is practically team principal anyway, so we may as well kkep him there. Cadan ap Tomos (talk) 20:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)