Talk:Martin Bormann

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[edit] Circumstances of death

The article states: "It is almost certain he was killed by Soviet troops not long after leaving the bunker."

In the German Wikipedia it is said that Bormann and a fellow could escape from the bunker, but lost their group and commited suicide, exhausted and demoralized.

Both accounts are true... the enWP version has since become much more detailed.Wyss 00:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The remains

His body was found and identified by DNA. He probably committed suicide with a cyanide capsule.

I recall a few years ago reports of analysis of his skull showing that dental surgery had been carried out that was not recorded in his records in Berlin, the jaw line indicated aging and there were traces of foreign soil, suggesting that he had survived in South America for about 15 years and then had his corpse returned to Berlin to cover his tracks. Does anyone know more to say if there's anything substantial to this? Timrollpickering 00:02, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If he was dead why did he need to 'cover his tracks'?
Maybe he had connections and associates in South America who felt the need to maintain the story of his death in Berlin 1945 after his real death - possibly to avoid an investigation reaching them at the time. Timrollpickering 02:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well that seems rather implausible to me. They buried his body in Berlin rather than just dump it at sea for example? I think that would be very complicated and easy to to get spotted. They aged it to create the idea that it'd been there for 30 years? And all because they wanted to conceal their involvement in B's nefarious post-war deeds? Humm. Lots of simpler and more effective methods, I think. It sounds like a wild 'ad hoc' theory to explain the presence of the body in Berlin while still maintaining that B had been up to no good in Argentina and thoughout the world.User: Paul Barlow Paul
I'm inclined to agree but recall that in addition to the aging, there were traces of Argentinean soil, whilst the dental work was not on his records - did he stop to go to the dentist while escaping? Whilst not sure myself it does raise questions that aren't easy to answer. Timrollpickering 01:07, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The rumour that Argentinean soil was found with the remains is spurious. There are lots of published rumours, but zero evidence Bormann was alive after 2 May 1945. Wyss 00:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Can somebody justify the recent deletion of a paragraph, described as "redundant"? Unless justified I may revert. PatGallacher 15:11, 2005 Feb 28 (UTC)

Bormann was definatly in South America for a while, my grandfather was chief of station in several latin american countries throughout the cold war. I've interviewed him many times on tape and have written his memoirs and he has confirmed Bormann's life in South America along with a whole lot of other interesting things. I know that sounds kind of insane but it's true, however, I do not know how he died. He could have very well gone back to Berlin later and died there.

mccown1122

These were rumours and they were widely believed (or at least checked out from time to time) by sundry intelligence services. In 1945 Axmann consistantly claimed he saw Bormann's body and the remains were later found and identified. Wyss 00:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Bormann was last seen leaving the bunker and trying to get anyone he would meet up with to pull his finger. He finally met up with a Soviet tank crew that obliged him by really pulling his finger.

This article reads like a bundle of conspiracy theories. This paragraph in particular has no references and contains spelling errors -- and frankly, reads rather "wacko":

Since 1998 DNA testing revealed the skull to in fact be Bormann's, the theory that is suggested by the above evidence is that Bormann lived outside of Germany for some time, and that after his death his remains were buried somewhere (presumably near where he had been living). Then, sometime later, as part of a cover-up, his remains were exhumed, altered appropriately (such as the planting of glass shards in the lower jar to mimic the result of having bitten down on a glass cyanide ampule, and then "planted" as evidence, with the intention of them being found in Berlin by "accident," to lend credence to story that Bormann had fallen nearby, in 1945, and that that was where his body was ultimately buried by someone who perhaps didn't recognize him or who did but didn't want it to be found at the time. People have questioned why Bormann, if he had indeed been buried abroad, would have been exposed directly to the soil as opposed to being in a casket or sarcophagus of some kind. Theorists of this conspiracy suggest that perhaps, during his period of hiding, the plan had existed all along (or was conceived at least at the time of his death) and therefore he was buried locally to allow his body to naturally biodegrade before being exhumed and relocated back to a site in Berlin where it would eventually be found. Theories as to who perpetrated this crime abound, from the West German government wanting to cover-up his escape to the Mossad wanting to cover-up the fact that they knew his whereabouts but were unable or unwilling to abduct him and bring him to justics as they had with Eichmann to elements of the British government wanting to cover-up the fact that they had helped him escape in order to get access to his vast fortune to the Soviets wanting to cover-up the fact that he had in fact been the deep-cover mole codenamed "Werther."

Come on, people -- this is really stretching things. Pure speculation does not belong in Wikipedia. --Rhombus 15:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Gerhardt Boldt's story should be added in after Axmann's recount 72.138.97.220 (talk) 05:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Found in 1972?

Well, I've heard of long shots but really... you have to ask yourself: what is the likelihood that a single body discovered by chance in Berlin in 1972, and ostensibly there since 1945, would be that of Martin Borman?

Of course as soon as one doubts this discovery the tests also go out of the window: they were obviously faked. Which means they do not prove anything. Neither that he took cyanide in 1945 nor that he escaped to South America.

The truth? No-one actually knows what happened to him and as like as not he was killed in the chaos of 1945 Berlin. But the body has not and never will be found.

Case solved.

Next conspiracy? Marcus22 10:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

No, not at all. They were finding bodies constantly in the decades following the war. It's not at all surprising famous ones would turn up now and then. The body was positively identified, as was Stempfegger's. Wyss 11:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Bormann, who is considered as the "Second Man" to Hitler, is dead. Why would anyone fake the DNA test of his death? He is one of the greatest leaders in Nazi history. They found proof of his death by getting a DNA from an old relative. They also found proof of how he died. The truth is he dead and that's the end of it. Case Closed.

[edit] How they died

I read The Bunker and I think Axmann said he assumed that Bormann and Stumfager (sp?) poisoned themselves? BlueShirts 00:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Axman thought they had been shot in the back. The Last Days of Hitler by Hugh Trevor-Roper (University of Chicago Press, ISBN 0-226-81224-3) is cited by [1] The Bunker most likely conflates Axman's 1945 account with the 1972 finding of glass shards in Bormann's skull (which indicates he did take cyanide, contrary to Axman's assumption). Wyss 00:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Note: Axman was mistaken, but it was 27 years before either his general account or his mistaken assumption were understood, when Bormann and Stumpfegger's skeletal remains were found during a construction project. They were lying on their backs and he didn't see any wounds in the moonlight, so he assumed they had been shot in the back. Having been with them only minutes before he presumably didn't think of the possibility they had so quickly given up all hope and munched on cyanide caps. Wyss 01:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the sentence that Hitler's "hatred of catholics was evidenced by the massive number of them interned in concentration camps". this is simply post-war propaganda design to rehabilitate the German catholic church which as an institution accomodated itself quite comfortably to the regime. Hitler did indeed, as many German nationalists of the era, loath the church regarding it as a treacherously international institution. one need not look any further than Meine kampf for evidence. Still aside from limited attempts to close down parochial schools before the war no serious action was taken against it, while during the war the need to preserve morale militated against any other actions. onthe few occasions when catholic priests were arrested this was due either to anti-nazi statements during sermons, after warnings to cease and desist have been ignored, a "courteousy" not accorded to other dissidents, often with the approval of church hirerches, or much more commonly for non-ideological reasons. Borman at one point did obtain Hitler's permission to begin an anti-religious propaganda campaign over the objections of many gauleiters but was ordered to halt it when public opinion reports indicated that it had provoked consternation. the catholic church was not a nazi priority.

[edit] Date of death remains unknown

Was Martin Bormann the top Nazi who was so interested in relocating North American mammals to both central Europe and parts of South America with a similar climate? If not him, who? Raccoons are a pest in Germany now - and beaver in southern South America, Tierra del Fuego(the Argentine part)way. This was an ongoing thing with Germans, a long time before the Nazis and even after World War II. Somebody big in the Nazi party supported this wholeheartedly. Attempts were made to establish passenger pigeons and carolina parakeets in certain parts of eastern Germany in the mid to late 1800s, so this was an ongoing thing. Supposedly all the serious scientific literature about the (extinct) passenger pigeon was found in the hands of the Nazis at the end of World War II. The beaver were supposedly put in South America in 1947, although I think an earlier date is more correct. They would have put trout in as well. Is there anyone the least bit knowledgeable about this? This was basically a very expensive hobby type situation, which did not always turn out properly from a biological basis. I understand Bormann was very interested in this, but am not sure? Somebody important in the Nazi party was interested in this. Who? I think his presence in South America could be correlated with this. 75.35.133.251 01:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added "Cause of Death Disputed"

This may be an inappropriate Wiki-category, but I added "Cause of Death Disputed" to this article--because the exact DATE of his death is disputed. It was added with good intentions. Is there a Wiki-category "Circumstances of death disputed"? Let's discuss this further, if needed. ProfessorPaul 02:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought the DNA test proved that it was Bormann's skull? And Artur Axmann testified he found Bormann and the doctor dead when he ran from a Sovjet patrol. So why is there another date of dead in the article?DTE 08:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
And on that note, if there's evidence that he might have died in 1959, why is it not mentioned in the article except for the introduction? Nyttend 03:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "Children" ?

What's about his "children" ? Are the still - 2007- alive ? Where they live ?

I don't find anything in the German Version of Wikipedia. I hope, somebody can help me on this way.

-- Andrea1984-- 22:17, 23. Juni 2007 (CEST) (German Version)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Bormann.jpg

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BetacommandBot 07:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Artur Axmann's account

The whole paragraph appears to relate events that occurred on 1 May 1945, including his discovery of Bormann's body. Yet we say he died on (?) 2 May. Seems to be an inconsistency here. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no inconsistency. Bormann left the bunker shortly before midnight and his death is estimated to have occurred sometime in the first hours of the next day. -- Dissident (Talk) 17:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] contested statement removed

  • He developed and administered the Adolf Hitler Endowment Fund of German Industry, a huge fund of voluntary contributions made by successful entrepreneurs. Bormann re-allocated these funds as gifts to almost all of the party leadership. {{Fact|date=November 2007}}

Please do not return this information to the artilce without a citation.--BirgitteSB 17:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)