Talk:Markale massacres

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I'll keep this brief: it is simply not right to insert "allegedly" into the article when the views expressed are the mainstream and widely accepted opinion - and the views expressed in the article ARE the mainstream and widely accepted opinion. Live Forever 22:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's widely accepted, noone dares to say that the US was wrong and that it started a military operation because of a lie (just like in Iraq). There is not a single serious scientific analysis that proves that Serbs are to blame, the theory is based on "hmm.. bosnians died, Serbs did it", and thats all. --serbiana - talk 22:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

No; no it isn't, and the article clearly shows that through well-referenced facts. The newest scientific evidence presented to the ICTY was enough to have a Serb general convicted beyond reasonable doubt in the 94' massacre, while the 95' massacre was never even seriously in doubt. The claim that the Bosnian government was responsible basically rests on 1.) media speculation, 2.) early calculations which were later proved faulty - not enough to qualify it as a legitimate argument. Live Forever 22:53, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, but the photo you posted is not from that massacre, it is from a different one. If you are posting wrong photos, how can I believe what you're saying is true? --serbiana - talk 22:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the picture I took was the one on the Serbian wikipedia where it said it was of the second Markale massacre. Was there an original mistake on the Sr. wiki? Live Forever 05:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats right. The thing that interests me is, how come you copy a picture from Serbian Wikipedia, assuming its the right one, but you don't believe anything thats written there? --serbiana - talk 05:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Markale massacres has failed, for the following reason:

Style issues, really - the article is long enough to need a lead section and table of contents. Suggest sectioning into 'First massacre', 'Second massacre' and 'Subsequent events'. Otherwise it's all great. Worldtraveller 17:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article nomination has passed

Minor notes

  • Directly cite the dead and injured numbers at the beginning.

Otherwise, good job.--SeizureDog 14:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Due to edit warring.Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 01:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The point of unprotection is not to let you edit war again. You've already done your two reverts like I said at Talk:Srebrenica massacre and blocks will be enforced in future. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 04:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fact or Fiction

Well, I'm glad that you've at least finally come to the talk page. Unfortunately, your "facts" and argument have more holes than swiss cheese. I'll offer a lengthlier response later today. Live Forever 20:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

There should be a "Controversy regarding the Markale Incident" section. If someone doesn't start it soon, I will. Stop The Lies 03:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_Lies

[edit] Name

It should be Markale incidents. Just like Beit Hanoun November 2006 incident --TheFEARgod (Ч) 23:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:UCK NLA.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 11:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Culpability?

This article states very directly that Republika Srpska was responsible for both massacres. I'm not sure if the sources we have currently are enough to justify that conclusion. Indeed the main source for this assertion is something called the "Srebrenica Genocide Blog" which I do not see as a reliable source.

For the first shelling, the two references are the BBC and ICTY; the BBC piece says that General Rose remembers being told by a senior ARBiH general that ARBiH was behind the shelling, and that "Perhaps the final verdict on the Markale incident lies with the War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague". Perhaps. The ICTY of course found the Serbs culpable.

For the second shelling, the sources are the "Genocide Blog" and the ICTY (the other sources don't assign culpability to the Serbs and some of them blame other parties).

Are there better sources from the mainstream media who we can cite instead of the blog? Those sources I can find seem to leave Markale 1 as an open question; "Whoever fired the mortar 12 years ago had a deadly aim", says this BBC piece from March 2006, at least one even blames Bosnian Croats. [1] On the other hand I can see mainstream sources like this from Reuters which clearly assigns blaim to the Serbs. I just don't know if WP:NPOV allows us to state "Serbs did both massacres" as outright undisputed fact. <eleland/talkedits> 20:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. there is also interesting materials exposed by Michel Collon (belge journalist) and Juergen Elsaesser (german journalist), which tend to prove (very convincing evidence - I will use for improving the french page - not the english one since I knoz too bad english) that both massacres was organized by Sarajevo's head (that is, Izetbegovic and Co) itself, so that Serbs seem guilty and OTAN starts bombing. See e.g. Liar's Poker: The Great Powers, Yugoslavia and the Wars of the Future. 193.125.180.8 (talk) 10:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I have been a bluehelmet in these days,and i remember some of the rumours.And how surprised i was over the accuracy of these very few mortar shells who hit the market area(xtra surprising because of the joy of slibowitz the serbs had...btw the others also). The rumours said the shells were thrown down from house roofs,to make NATO start. Interesting is also that the croat offensives are in this time,maybe something was coordinated? Lives and tricks were cheap in those days.None of the parts were holy saints.It was a sick war,who sickened some of the combatants brains on all sides.The heavy slibowitz(alcohol)consumption made it worse.I was stationed on the serb side,sometimes i feel petty for those common serbs ,who were very hospilate and joyfull people,which were drawn into this madness.

Yes, "Are there better sources from the mainstream media who we can cite instead of the blog?" we should use mainstream western media cuz its just more unbiased than that fascist antiserb blog!

HAH who are you kidding, wikipedia is the most antiserb tool out there guys, even if you seek to use mainstream media for a source you cant honestly expect enlightened individuals to be blind to NATO countries / media interest in portraying those evil serbs as untermenchx! were it not for the media markale square massacre would be painted in its true light, being the selfinflicted PR wound that got the serbs bombed to hell! Oh, but no, you think the fucking media is worth sourcing?
PS. i removed the source to SrebBlogSpot link and i DO NOT expect to ever see it again on wikipedia, it violates the sources policy - Have fun Rndxcl (talk) 21:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)