Talk:Malleus Maleficarum

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Assessment comments The following comments were left by the assessors: (edit · refresh) [edit] About assessment About its quality. It complies with the B-class elements. It does not need much work in the categories, I think they are enough, covering its origins, its contents and its repercutions. The content section is really complete and needs few work. The other sections may require enlargement and improvement. For instance, the "Genesis" section (besides a rename) could use a rewrite as it conflicts with itself, at first proposing that the book was endorsed by the Pope with a bule, but then mentioning that it was inscribed in the index of forbidden books. Neither of both assertions mention their cites. I would also suggest to add a "Editions" section, not in the form of a list but as prose please.Also, about the quality, the article is useful to many, but I wouldn't seriously use this article as a reference for some study. About its importance. I feel that not a lot of people is familiar with this text. Some may have heard of it, but know little or nothing about it. Also for the occult, it is not vital. Maybe for religion it is. I have read the Malleus and I can say that it does contain interesting toppics for the occultist, at least to compare them to other such works, like Compendium Malleficarum by Guazzo. I was really tempted to put it a High-class, but I'll refrain myself and leave it in Mid. --Legion fi 04:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

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Contents 1 About assessment 2 Jacob Sprenger's role 3 latin 4 Included texts 5 Length 6 Not supported by the catholic church? 6.1 Removed Sentence 7 Link added 8 Jacob Sprenger 9 Sources? 10 POV 11 Community ban of the Joan of Arc vandal 12 Pop Culture/trivia 12.1 Which Witch 13 Legal validity 14 "The" Malleus Maleficarum? 15 Gutenberg and "original sin" 16 discuss the English translations in the article? 17 Weasel Word? 18 Number of editions 19 Objections to the use of the adjective "medieval" 20 Author name 21 Supposed Banning of Malleus Maleficarum 22 New Translation 23 Recursive Reference & Genesis Section in General

[edit] Jacob Sprenger's role

The article on demonology says that the Malleus maleficarum was "once thought" to have been co-written by Jacob Sprenger. Can some expert clarify this inconsistency between the two articles?

65.96.178.162 22:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

The book wasn't co-written by Jacob Sprenger. Jacob Sprenger was just added as auther to make the work look more trustworthy.

--80.62.126.100 17:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree on the fact that the Malleus Maleficarum was not supported by the church or the inquisition.

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I also disagree. I would like to see some references to this. - Scythe000 (kenmay@kenmay.net) Scythe000 05:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] latin

anyone know if the latin is available somewhere online?

Not sure if this is the right way to answer your question, but yes, there is. Here's the link: http://historical.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/witch/docviewer?did=060 Snelle Fjöll 18:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a new edition that is supposed to be coming out in early 2007, translated by Christopher W. MacKay. It's in two volumes: the first is Latin with glosses, and the second is supposed to be an all-new English translation. Summers was very partisan and his translation is generally seen as suspect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.241.134.56 (talk • contribs) 02:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Included texts

I have added this note based on the book by W.E.H.Leckey and it was deleted by user 205.188.117.67: "The book includes texts by a lot of theologians of the 14th and 15th century, e.g. Johannes Nider, Bernard Basin, Ulrich Molitor, Jean Gerson, Thomas Murner, Bartolomeo Spina, Johannes Laurentius, Bernardus Comensis, Paulus Grillandus and others." Do you consider that incorrect or irrelevant? User: Aloysius

no, I consider it relevant. Put it back. It is information that contributes to the background of the book.

[edit] Length

I feel that this article needs to be broken down into smaller sections, as the text is rather long and overwhelming. The archbisquick 21:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not supported by the catholic church?

Is there any confirmation of the claims that the church approval was forged? This view seems to come from the essay by "jenny gibbons." That reference also says she is an historian, yet there is no mention of credentials, and it is "the accepted view among scholars," although the site it links to is a commercial non-academic site, with no references for its claims. I suggest that it be removed, or edited until better confirmation.

It seems that the Papal bull was from 1484. Hans Peter Broedel states in his recent work The Malleus Maleficarum and the Construction of Witchcraft that the Malleus was mostly written by Institoris (Kramer) in reaction to an incident that took place in October 1485; if his assertion is accurate, then the Pope could not have known the content of the Malleus before writing the bull. In any case, the earliest publication date I've seen for the Malleus was two years after the bull. So it's unlikely that it was written as justification for the content of the Malleus.

[edit] Removed Sentence

I have re-removed the following "sentence", the deletion (not by me) of which was erroneously identified as vandalism:

However was suppoted for the catholic church comdemed all those who were not priest as followers of the devil.

I have removed it because it is very bad English indeed (two misspellings, incorrect capitalization, poor grammar and syntax); I cannot even make enough sense of it to reword it. Presumably, it was previously removed for the same reason. -- EmmetCaulfield 19:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link added

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/ added to links, since there was no link to an English translation.Hodgson 19:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jacob Sprenger

The entry dedicated to Sprenger denies his participation in the authorship of the Malleus. We must be consistent. 201.51.221.78 22:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

What sources used in each?--195.7.55.146 15:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of scholarly dispute about Sprenger's authorship. It is pretty clear that it was written in one style and voice (though that could be a matter of translation), and it seems to fixate on a lot of the sexual overtones that Institoris (Kramer) has been known for. See also Hans Peter Broedel's recent work, The Malleus Maleficarum and the Construction of Witchcraft.

[edit] Sources?

This article seems to be in desperate need of some citations, as I'm finding it very hard to assess the veracity of its content. The "historian" link goes to a very short essay in which no credentials are given for the author, and no further sources are cited.

Addendum: credentials are cited, though not very accessibly. The author of the piece has a Master's degree in the field [1]. Still, no sources are given in that particular piece, so something more scholarly may inspire more confidence in the assertion that what she presents is the "accepted view among scholars". (This is not my field, I don't even know if there is a single "accepted view among scholars" - but if there is, it should be possible to document it properly.)

Second addendum: these claims have been challenged before [2], and readded on the basis that the author of the piece is not a Catholic, and the unsupported claim that hers is the mainstream academic view [3]. Since this article contains seemingly controversial information that is obviously not sufficiently sourced, I believe it should be tagged as needing improvement; I'd be grateful if someone who knows an appropriate tag for this(and agrees) could add it to the article.

Hopefully, someone knowledgeable in the field can resolve this by citing some trustworthy academic sources - I'd very much like to know what actually is the accepted view here. 80.202.98.194 02:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] POV

Incredible! Well, seems like something bad happened... This article is a myth. Based on an essay with no sources of its revolutionary claims [4][5] There are hundreds of articles based on this one already on the web. This article should be DELETED!--Hapala 23:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The website from which all the incredible information are...[6]. My links declare opposite facts compared to those in the article...--Hapala 00:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Community ban of the Joan of Arc vandal

This article has been targeted in recent weeks by CC80, a sockpuppet of the Joan of Arc vandal. This and similar articles may be targeted again by other sockpuppets of the same person.

A vandal who has damaged Wikipedia's Catholicism, Christianity, cross-dressing, and homosexuality articles for over two years has been identified and community banned. This person will probably attempt to continue disruption on sockpuppet accounts. Please be alert for suspicious activity. Due to the complexity of this unusual case, the best place to report additional suspicious activity is probably to my user talk page because I was the primary investigating administrator. Durova^Charge! 17:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pop Culture/trivia

The "MM" figures in some of the work of H.P. Lovecraft and is mentioned at least once in Joss Whedon's Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV series.

Basesurge 10:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which Witch

I find the inclusion of this bit of information a bit tasteless. The article is a very serious one about an appalling book which caused the death of literally thousands of women and enshrined institutional misogyny in Western theocracy for generations to come. Including a precis of a rather facile musical seems a little crass. ThePeg 16:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Pop culture / trivia sections are both pernicious and not a place to go looking for good editorial judgement. You could just be bold and remove it. Jkelly

I too found inappropriate the inclusion of pop culture/trivia so i decided to go ahead and be bold and delete. Wichienmaat 08:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a shame that this was removed. A friend of mine came looking for this connection here, and told me he couldn't find it, so I decided to take a look myself, certain I had found the information here myself long ago. The subject interests me, so I was hoping to find other references to Mallerus in contemporary culture and art. GenderLine

[edit] Legal validity

However it does become somewhat valid if the word witch is replaced with "communist" or "terrorist".

This section seems vague and it is unclear to me why this was added. It seems to be a polemic comment, rather than a genuine contribution to the article, as the "Malleus Maleficarum" surely has no legal validity today. The link between the book an "red-baiting" witchhunts or anti-terrorism does not hold. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shadowhunter98 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was rather surprised when I read that section. Since it wasn't really ever a legal document in the first place (as I understand it), I don't see how this could even be a relevant section. While there are certainly parallels between witch hunts and red scares and anti-terrorism (and the Cultural Revolution, and Stalinist purges, and Germany under the third reich, etc.), this article hardly seems the place for such arguments. I've decided to be bold and delete it. Blurble 02:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The section was unsourced, original research, and crystal-ball gazing. --Jtir 12:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

What I meant was that if a modern version were ever printed, "terrorist" could easily replace "witch" and still make some sense. I know it wasn't a legal document and more of a how-to/guidebook, but I couldn't think of what else to name the section. "Why this book makes sense in a modern context" sounds more like the title of a term paper. --Guthrie 16:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

WP policy says we can't do original research, so we have to find a verifiable source that makes your point. As to your hypothetical term paper:

• British playwright Caryl Churchill's 1976 play Vinegar Tom quotes from the Malleus and has characters named Sprenger and Kramer. (The WP article on Vinegar Tom needs to be expanded to make this clear.)

--Jtir 17:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The" Malleus Maleficarum?

Doesn't the Latin phrase "Malleus Maleficarum" already have a "the" integrated? So saying "the" Malleus Maleficarum is surely redudant EamonnPKeane 18:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. Translator Montague Summers consistently uses "the Malleus Maleficarum" (or simply "the Malleus") in his 1928 and 1948 introductions. I have added a note. [7] [8] --Jtir 17:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It's 'The'... that is to say, the particular object is a book, either 'The' book, or 'The' Malleus Maleficarum. You could drop the 'The' if indeed you wrote or spoke in latin, not simply used latin as the pronoun. Editorcomm (talk) 06:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gutenberg and "original sin"

I'm sorry, but this bit is polemical nonsense and should be removed: "swift propagation of the witch hysteria by the press was the first evidence that Gutenberg had not liberated man from original sin" Heavily ironic POV is not approprate to an encyclopedia. Non-Christians do not recognise "original sin" anyway, and so far as I know, Gutenberg did not have its abolition as an aim? If one believes that all religious belief is a form of irrationality, then the first hysteria spread by the printing press was not "Malleus Maleficarum", but the new relgious fanaticism caused by the printing of venacular bibles. After all, one could argue that printing caused the Reformation, and that effectively caused a terrible European civil war. I am grateful for our present freedoms, but our ancestors paid an awful price for them. Think about it :) Sasha 08:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The article cites Russell, p. 234, for this passage, Russell is a verifiable source, and he appears to be a reliable source. Fact checking appears to be needed. The books is online here. --Jtir 18:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

After fact checking Russell, I made this edit. The article now very clearly states that these are Russell's words, not the words of the WP editors. Even so, I'm not sure that the passage really helps the article — irony taken out of context is highly likely to be misinterpreted. --Jtir 19:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] discuss the English translations in the article?

There might be enough material to discuss the English translations in the article. Both of these sources are listed in the References. (I don't have access to them.)

• Hamilton, Alastair (May 2007)
• Mackay, Christopher S. (2006)

A reviewer of Mackay's edition at amazon.com describes the Summers edition as "woefully inaccurate". This review can't be used as a source, but it does suggest that there might be a reliable source saying the same thing. --Jtir 21:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of translations, the figure caption "the hammer of witches [smashing...] with a mighty spear" seems surprising. I did a quick search and found a somewhat similar biblical quote, Jer 23:29, "numquid non verba mea sunt quasi ignis ait Dominus et quasi malleus conterens petram", which is translated (KJV) to "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" I assume that conterens must mean something like "break in pieces" - there's definitely no "spear" in that translation. Mike Serfas 20:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for "pointing" this out. I have tagged the translation with {{fact}}. A cursory check of Summers didn't reveal a translation. Maybe Mackay? A search of Summers for "conterens" finds his translation in this note to his his 1928 intro. --Jtir 21:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

"framea" can be translated as "a spear, javelin, used by the ancient Germans" or, in later Latin, as "a sword". [9]

"conterens" is an inflected form of "contero", which means "to grind, bruise, pound, wear out". [10]

--Jtir 11:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Word?

What does it mean to be "arguably" one of the most famous texts? Call it the most famous. Say it is among the most famous. But telling me, the reader, that it is "arguably" the best, the most famous, the most flavorful tells me nothing. Kjdamrau 02:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Ken Damrau

[edit] Number of editions

In the Genesis section, it says that the volume was published 13 times between 1487 and 1520. However, in the Consequences section, it states that 20 editions were published in the same period. Obviously, only one of these can be correct. — Dave (Talk | contribs) 06:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Objections to the use of the adjective "medieval"

A comment about the beginning of the article - I cite:

"The Malleus Maleficarum[2](Latin for "The Hammer of Witches", or "Hexenhammer" in German) is one of the most famous medieval treatises on witches. It was written in 1486 by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger, and was first published in Germany in 1487.[3] It was the culmination of a long medieval tradition of treatises on witchcraft, the most famous being the Formicarius by Johannes Nider in 1435-1437.[4]"

I have objections to the use of the adjective "medieval". It seems to have been mechanically used because the misconception that the witch hunts were a primarily medieval phenomenon is still abroad. As is clear from the content of the cited sentences themselves, however, the Malleus itself is in fact a Renaissance work (written in 1486 and becoming an influence during the next century). Lower down in this same article, we find a link to the article 'late Middle Ages', where this period is defined as running from 1300-1500 with the 15th century described as a transition period between the middle ages and the renaissance. A usual year mentioned as marker of the end of the Middle Ages, I may add, is 1452 - the year of the fall of Constantinople and the Eastern Roman Empire. As for the statement about the Malleus being "the culmination of a long medieval tradition of treatises on witchcraft", this seems rather doubtful considering that the medieval church held the belief in witches to be a superstition (in 1090, it declared three women burned for witchcraft in Munich martyrs - I have this information from an article by Gustav Henningsen "Kan hekse flyve" (= "Do witches fly?"). G. H. is a Danish professor specializing in the witch hunts; he has also written articles in english and spanish which can be found on the web and are highly recommendable. He also cites a letter from pope Gregory VII to the Danish king Harald Hen urging the king to stop his people from keeping up the barbarous custom of accusing women of causing storms and diseases and executing them. Storms and diseases are God's will, says the Pope, and people should not go about accusing other people about them.) Well, considering, I would like to see earlier titles on these "medieval treatises" or have the text changed. The only one mentioned from the allegedly long tradition is a work from - 1435. As it stands, I suggest a replacement of the use of the adjective "medieval" with "renaissance" or "early modern" where appropriate.

Another thing: I have a comment to the question asked by someone further up about a "the" inherent in the latin "Malleus maleficarum" - no, there is nothing incorrect or "double" about writing "The malleus". Latin generally doesn't use articles (the pronoun 'ille/illa/illud' (meaning 'that one') may be used as such, however, and is the word that later develops into the article in for instance italian (il/la)). But it doesn't follow that "Malleus maleficarum" written alone automatically means "The m. m.", it may be translated with or without the article according to the meaning of the sentence around it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.81.106.89 (talk) 01:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful and informed comments. I agree that "medieval" is vague and misleading, and believe that it could be eliminated entirely by simply citing specific years for specific works. The lead has yet another problem. It says: "[The Malleus] was the culmination", with "the most famous [treatise] being the Formicarius". Wouldn't the one that is the "culmination" be the most famous? I suggest dropping all the superlatives unless a direct quote from a verifiable and reliable source can be found. --Jtir (talk) 13:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Please Be bold. Anything is better than middle ages in 1487. (typing error: 1487+11=1498) Elephx4 (talk) 14:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Where did you read "1498"? --Jtir (talk) 20:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Author name

The name of one of the authors mentioned appears to be Maxwell-Stuart, not Maxwell-Stewart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.152.164.46 (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Supposed Banning of Malleus Maleficarum

I just noticed what seems to be a date contradiction in this article.

The article states, "The Catholic Church banned the book in 1490, placing it on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum." However, the article Index Librorum Prohibitorum itself states that "The first list of the kind was not published in Rome, but in Roman Catholic Netherlands (1529). Venice (1543) and Paris (1551, under the terms of the Edict of Châteaubriant) followed this example. The first Roman Index was the work of Pope Paul IV (1557, 1559)." This is corroborated by [11]: "The first official censorship had come in 1559 with the publication of the Index auctorum et librorum prohibitorum under the direction of Pope Paul IV. The Pauline index, as it became known, was the first in a long succession of papal indexes, forty-two in all." See also [12].

If the first Index came out a few decades into the 1500s, how was the Malleus Maleficarum listed in one around 1490? Could someone resolve this issue perhaps?

-- 137.155.202.26 (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Translation

It appears a new translation is out [13], by Christopher Mackay. Also, there is an interview with him at [14] in which he discusses some aspects of the book and its history. He questions the work of the original translator. - 137.155.202.26 (talk) 20:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recursive Reference & Genesis Section in General

I'm removing http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/index.html as a citation for the banning of the book since it has two references: 1) Original version of the page, which does not mention the banning, and 2) This very article. Am I wrong in thinking this means the article is using itself as a reference? I'm replacing it with another link to the Jenny Gibbons reference, which makes the point (and is interestingly from the same domain as the original citation).

I'm also going to place a "section has issues" template on the Genesis section in general, as there has been dispute in the past and on this talk page about some of its points, and there needs to be better citation in general and I for one dispute the neutrality of the Gibbons reference.

If I'm overstepping myself here, may someone promptly delete the notice!

-- 137.155.202.26 (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Can someone fix the citation so it doesn't spawn a new number for the same reference? I'm not sure how. -- 137.155.202.26 (talk) 21:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

-- Actually I misread, sorry, Gibbons does not make this point... - 137.155.202.26 (talk) 21:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)