Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Dying words controversy

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Contents 1 Hey Ram 2 dying words 2.1 article text 2.2 kalyanam and the news article 2.3 more comments

[edit] Hey Ram

"Gandhi's dying words being Hey Ram is a myth." says User:Arvindn.

What is the source for this info ? Jay 10:33, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK. Its slightly long, but bear with me. In the days before his death, Gandhi was constantly chanting the name of Rama. In fact, he even wrote something like "If I were to be shot in the chest and died with the words Hey Ram on my lips, only then would I be a true Mahatma" shortly before his death! In the light of this, it is no surprise that all press reports of his death attributed those words to him. To do otherwise would have been utter blasphemy!

Gopal Godse says that the government put his words in his mouth to pacify Hindus, since some of his actions had been seen as pandering to the Muslims. While Gopal Godse is as much an extremist as his brother and there is no particular reason to believe him, it is undeniable that the government would have had excellent incentive to act that way.

But the main point is common sense. Is it possible for someone who was shot in the chest, and died immediately, to say anything at all? Such things happen only in films. Gandhi had ended a fast only a few days back, and so even under the unlikely assumption that he did say something no one would have heard him.

I don't remember where I got this from, probably not a single place; I am currently unable to find anything through google, mainly because of the drone of millions of unthinking people mindlessly repeating what the were told without asking the obvious question drowning out the voice of those who do. My rant is clearly useless without a citation, and so if you want you can put the sentence back, but please indicate that it is controversial.

Anyway my reason for objecting to it is not to question is Gandhi's devotion to Rama (which is very well documented) but the inanity of supposing that it was physically possible for him to utter those words.

Arvindn 11:57, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Is it at all possible for someone who was shot in the chest, to die immediately?

Someone shot in the chest will definitely die immediately is purely an invention and happens only in movies, where the villain?s men die immediately and the hero lives on to talk. Dear Arvidn, bullets are not magic. The body is a complex sytem and to kill a person, some essential services need to be brought to a halt and this process takes time. Nothing in the entirety of this world ever kills you immediately except cutting your brain off. May I also point out that Gandhiji did not die immediately. He was unconscious and carried away to residential units of Birla House and that is where he died[1]. This goes against your premise that Gandhiji died immediately.

During any given day a Hindu speaks those words at least once. It is common for me to say Hey, Bhagvan! (Oh God!) Whenever I am in trouble, expressing a feeling of disgust, have hit something hard, am looking at something that is very beautiful, laughing at someone's stupidity.... etc. Being shot in the chest Gandhiji had enough time to speak just those words that one speaks everyday not only because he is religious but because they have almost become a part of his reflexes. The only words my friend?s father was speaking before his death after an accident were Ram Ram, nothing else, out of shear pain and not just because he was extremely religious.

Even to quote a Hindu extremist like Godse is stupid. That the press was inclined to say that Gandhi's last words were Hey Ram is stupid too. Ever heard of something called Freedom of press? How can you make each and every press report in the world say the same thing if there is no truth to it?

Born and Brought up in India I have never ever come against what you believe to be true. Just because someone makes an attempt to malign Gandhiji does not make a topic controversial. There is no need to add the line that there is any controversy about Ganhiji's last words. AY 05:08, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Arvindn has a point too, and if I found material to the arguments he was talking about, then I would put that in the article. We need to be passionate to a point, but I feel an encyclopedia is more about facts than emotions. (On a related note "Nothing in the entirety of this world ever kills you immediately except cutting your brain off" is also not really true. It has been found that a decapitated person can respond to stimuli till 30 seconds). Jay 07:16, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Arvindn has a point too... Can you not smell conspiracy theorey? You are not wrong in accusing me of being passionate, "we need to be passionate to a point..." within bounds but Godse or his brother are the last people you will talk about. No doubt the gov. of India was not justified in sentencing Godse to Death, no doubt being a fundamentalists does not make you a liar, but it does discredit your remarks. Godse's one statement standing against the reaport of the free press of the world. Does Godse's brother even credit the kind of mention? Suppose someone who knew Gandhi were to come and say he way gay should we add that too? (Why gay?!! Saying someone is gay seems to be a lot of people's fav pastime.) Why vilify the sanctity of the greatest man in the last 1000 years [2] based on Sangh Parivar propaganda. Parivar's web pages are filled with filth (about Gandhi or anything Indian) would you collect and post it here? Everyone can speak one thing or the other but the ability to do so does not give you the credentials to get a mention in wikipedia. If I say Maria Callas could not sing as well as she did and that her voice was digitally recreated after her death what do you say to it? Enough evidence exists to the contrary, same here. Those people are long dead if you were to question them years after there death based on a piece of literature you are bringing out conspiracies. Read this line again Gopal Godse says that the government put his words in his mouth to pacify Hindus, clearly lacking logic from one end to the other. Clearly conspiracy theory. Read this now In fact, he even wrote something like "If I were to be shot in the chest and died with the words Hey Ram on my lips, only then would I be a true Mahatma" shortly before his death! In the light of this, it is no surprise that all press reports of his death attributed those words to him. To do otherwise would have been utter blasphemy! Blasphemy - Press!!!, does the free press care about blasphemy. Could the government of India push words into the mouth of the media ever? Someone out there begs to differ. Arvind (his name is not Arvidn) is making assumptions, fine. He is forcing it on us, NOPE, not me sir. Then there is the British press. Who spread the NEWS around those days except of Reuters? Why would the British media, which was bigger and stronger then the whims of gov. of India, do so?!!! Don?t you understand logic when you see it? Or do I have to explain things neatly?

About "Nothing in the..." I wanted to write "... except maybe cutting your brain off" then I thought what the hell, it makes no difference even if you can move without your brain and body being together. But Arvind's main point holds no ground ...my reason for objecting to it is ... the inanity of supposing that it was physically possible for him to utter those words. Well devoid of logic, what say? Inane, No?!! AY 00:15, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have no intention of continuing this argument, but I will just note that much of my time is/was spent in fighting Sangh Parivar POV, both in real life and in wikipedia. So much for your accusation. Unlike you, if those whom I don't like have something to say, I'm willing to listen to them. -- Arvindn 03:13, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Here is a better discussion on the Hey Ram politics [3] AFAIK, this issue was exposed when Kamal Haasan took his film Hey Ram and the subsequent events that happened especially the interview of Gopal Godse in Time magazine [4] [5].IIRC, the famous Tamil magazine Anandha Vikatan also published another--it's own version of interview with Gopal Godse at that time. Not only this issue, the father of the nation seems to have received opposition from many people [6] [7]

Anyway, your idea that Gandhi could have died immediately after the shot is new to me. --Rrjanbiah 05:21, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Hey Ram!" - It was in fact I who added that short bit in the article. I would like to say a couple of things regarding this argument, especially the initial one brought up by Arvind. It is established fact that speech, motion, even involved action, is very much possible after even a well-placed gunshot. As we know, Gandhi lived for many hours after the shooting. Lastly, it was said that before stumbling unconscious he said "Hey Ram!" NPOV is an oft-touted phrase in the wikipedia rooms, and this is for good reason. But carrying it to extreme proportions is something of which we must be wary. As someone before me mentioned, taking every stray comment as another legitimate point of view to be placed on an article is unscrupulous.

If I aver that indeed there is evidence that Roosevelt's apparent crippled nature was actually a big sham done to inspire sympathy from the voters, people would laugh me out of the country. Also, they would never bother to put such a stupid claim in an encyclopedia article, even as an 'alternative view,' since it is not widely held and has no proof or circumstantial evidence or ANY sort of support by legitimate questioners.

Lastly, japa (or repetition) of a mantra is a very well-established and popular Hindu practice geared towards focusing the mind on God. Most Hindus in India know some mantra or the other, and rhe spiritually-inclined or religious ones, constantly repeat the name of their conception of God or a specific mantra, while walking, in their heads, etc. This is not just idle speculation, like theories of the entire Indian newspress (which was markedly influenced by the British, by the way) fabricating a pleasant legend; rather, this is an established Hindu practice which Gandhi was most certainly a believer in. It is often said by Hindus, (Gandhi was not revolutionary in this way) that to die with the name of God on one's lips and in one's ears is the best way to die. For this reason, many North Indians will, at the death bed of a loved one, constantly repeat the name Ram, "Shri Ram, Jai Ram, Jai Jai Ram" or "Hare Ram Hare Ram". Also, other regions or people may use different names. This is common practice, and so it's not at all unprecedented, some incredibly individual habit and incident that Gandhi pioneered. Rather, he was continuing a Hindu tradition that has been familiar to Indians for many many centuries.

Gandhi has been quoted by all surrounding witnesses as saying "Hey Ram!" Fabricating conspiracies theories that could be possible motives in an alternative universe for the propagation of a lie is worthless. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:45, Mar 31, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] dying words

I think the section on his dying words [8] should be held in abeyance till this issue is resolved.

Pizzadeliveryboy 18:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily; we simply need to report on the controversy in a fair and neutral way. — goethean ॐ 18:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Where is the controversy? The man who was there said the words were not spoken. I think that should seal the debate once and for all, and relegate all talk of his dying words to the trash can of urban legend. - Pizzadeliveryboy 19:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] article text

quoting the section dealing with controversy-at the time of comments:

It is widely believed that Gandhi's last words (Hé! Rama) were as much an homage to God as they were an inspiring signal of his spirituality and idealism regarding the possibility of a unifying peace. However, the veracity of this claim has never been truly verified, with new claims from one of his personal attendants (Venkita Kalyanam, who was standing behind Gandhi when he was assassinated) actually alluding to the fact that Gandhi died without mentioning the words which have been widely ascribed to him, and made immortal by the inscription on his Samādhi at Rāj Ghāt, New Delhi.

[edit] kalyanam and the news article

the link cited above by Pizzadeliveryboy leads to a small article in a newspaper which says about what kalyanam said in kerala on 2006 jan 30: following that and probably based on that article alone yesrterday onwards several edits and reverts on the assasination section.

the above news article's major flaw seems to be that the reporter seems to think that it is for the first time kalyanam has said so. even if the reporter didn't think so, the wiki article at time of comment(quoted above) says, "new claims"

whereas the external links section of present wiki article contains a link to a detailed writeup published as early as 2001, [9]

anyone interested in the controversy please read that article before editing further, in case you don't have access or time for other resources for research.

and if you don't have time for reading that long write-up, here's quoting from relevant section of it:

Yet Gandhi’s former "aide", V. Kalyanam, who claims to have been by his side when the assassination took place, recalled recently that "Mahatma Gandhi never said ‘He Ram’ when he died. It was a fiction of the imagination, of those who came later." Kalyanam admits that Gandhi often said, "I wish I could die with the name of Ram on my lips", but he denies that these words were uttered by Gandhi as the bullets struck him. (7) Kalyanam could not have been very close to Gandhi, however, since Manu and Abha were on either side of him; in the days following his last fast, moreover, Gandhi’s voice was very faint, and he was certainly further away from Gandhi than the two young women who became known as his walking sticks. Kalyanam’s testimony also stands contradicted by Manu and Abha, as one might expect. It is not unimportant that, though describing himself as an "aide" to Gandhi, Kalyanam is not mentioned in any of the noted, or even minor, biographies of Gandhi; indeed every modern-day politician has an aide, but Gandhi cannot be assimilated to the creatures who inhabit the world of modern politics. Neither is there any independent verification of Kalyanam’s whereabouts on that fateful evening.

where source (7)is cited as : (7) "Gandhi did not say ‘He Ram’ when he died", Indian Express (Chennai), 19 Feb. 1998, a similar report citing kalyanam's words. i don't know anything about kalyanam, i assume good faith as regards what people several generations old tell.

and the content of that quoted write-up regarding the politics of the statement is quite well researched, good reading for anyone interested. -Pournami 07:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more comments

the book "MG, the last 200 days", is a compilation of daily articles for the hindu newspaper that ran for 200 days ending 30 jan 1998, the 50th anniversary of death. these articles were written by v ramamurhty, (who was 12 in 1948), an author of scholarly credentials. the source of all information included were the hindu's archives and the letters and articles written by mg himself. on the article of day 195, dealing with jan 24, 1948, ramamurthy quotes from a letter written by gandhi to someone named Jaisukhlal Gandhi. In which Gandhiji writes that he wants to die with the name of God Rama-Rama Nama--on his lips:

I have expressed my wish at prayer that, should someone kill me, I should have no anger in my heart against the killer, and that I should die with Rama Nama on my lips

so, if he said hey ram as his last words, his wish came true, if not, no: Either way, no use arguing back and forth about it. i don't think manu and abha find mention in the article, so why should kalyanam be mentioned, if his only claim to fame is this belated revelation of the disputability of attributed last words?--Pournami 10:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

changed the paragraph to as follows:

Gandhi's tomb (or Samādhi) at Rāj Ghāt, New Delhi, bears the epigraph, (Devanagiri: हे ! राम or, Hé! Rama), which may be translated as O! God. These are believed to be the last words he spoke before dying. For a detailed discussion of the veracity, interpretation and political significance of these words, refer Hey Ram: The Politics of Gandhi's Last Words

I have tried to maintain both sides of the debate in the new version - the fact that many believe the legend as claimed by people close to him, and the fact that new loght on this matter throws some doubt.

Pizzadeliveryboy 13:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

your new version reads(sorry abt echoing article text constantly):

Gandhi's memorial (or Samādhi) at Rāj Ghāt, New Delhi, bears the epigraph, (Devanagiri: हे ! राम or, Hé! Rāma), which may be translated as "O! God". These are widely believed to be Gandhi's last words after he was shot at, though the varacity of this statement has been disputed by many [10].

about "widely" and "by many".. it only implies that a large number of believers on either side of debate, right? imo, "it is believed" is sufficient;

about the number of people on either side of debate: 1, i don't think anyone at all is interested in the debate of whether or not the words were said: not even kalyanam: he said a lot of things on that press conference and the toi article only mentions this about the last words: very sloppy reporting i think. 2, hey ram is always associated, identified with gandhi, it sure is the writing on the memorial stone, 3, there's only three witness accounts: manu and abha(two young girls at the time, constant companions of bapu) says yes; he said so; kalyanam, (at the time 25) says, definitely not; others present at the time, no comment. 2-1-0. two syllables of barely audible sound, some 60 years ago, no way to know, no need to care in my opinion. (and those two syllables happen to be instantly recognized anywhere in india as being last words of gandhiji)

as an aside: incidentally, that link article does not debate the veracity of the attibuted last words; its says just these few lines i quoted above; rather, deals with the politics of the controversy.

again, i honestly think my version of the paragraph is better for the article than yours; but that is a personal opinion of mine; i'll let your version stay for now. i won't edit your version of the paragraph. Rather, as and when you think it fit to respond to this comment, please consider replacing your version of the paragraph with mine: only if you think that is ok. -Pournami-- and veracity is the right spelling, is it not?

and btw, it's not new light thrown on the matter. kalyanam now 83, he's been saying it ever since 1948. -Pournami 10:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)