Talk:Märzen

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  • The "incorrect" American definitions are from an authoritative source. They are accurate, valid, and properly cited. If there are similar non - American style definitions please feel free to include them as well. --Loquacious A 14:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


Well the Deutsche Brauer Bund (The German professional Brewers´organisation) disagrees. This is how they define Maerzen:

http://www.brauer-bund.de/bierfans/sorten/spezi.htm#maerzen

Maerzen is most definitely not - in Germany at least - necessarily an amber beer. Maerzen refers to the relative strength. There are pale, amber and dark beers called Maerzen in Germany. The Oktberfest Maerzen - and as the Munich brewers call it that, who are we to tell them they are wrong - has mostly been a pale beer for a couple of decades.

Here are some examples of Maerzens from Franconia - the heartland of German lager brewing - that are not amber:

St. Georgen Bräu Gold Märzen - pale

Hebendanz Märzen-Gold -pale

Aecht Schlenkerla Rauchbier Märzen - dark

Spezial Rauchbier Märzen - dark

Hummel-Bräu Räucherla Märzen - dark

These all come from small, traditional breweries.

Some of the Munich breweries make two types of Maerzen, pale and amber.

Paulaner Original Münchner Märzen - amber Paulaner Oktoberfestbier - pale

To say that pale Maerzen is stylistically Helles is just plain wrong and demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the history and development of lager beer styles. You can find more information on the topic (properly referenced from mostly German sources) here:

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/lager19.htm

I could go on. Change the page back to give the American description of what they think German Maerzen should be if you want. I´ve got better things to do than keep correcting it. Patto1ro 15:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't understand why you're getting confrontational or offended. If you'd like to ADD this information, please do. What you've provided doesn't sustantiate removal of the American descriptions. Certainly the DBB description is germane, and should be included. However, it is in German, and this is the English Wikipedia. I'm positive that a translation included under the heading "Style Notes" would make this a much richer article. It's a diverse world. --Loquacious A 13:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Big kudos to Goethean for excellent tidying.--Loquacious A 16:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I give up. Did you actually read my references?

If you think that a beer style can be reduced to this kind of tight defintion, good luck to you. My experience of beer styles "out in the wild" is very different.

This page was my test of if the Wikipedia could ever seriously tackle beer. Bye bye. Patto1ro 22:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This article is now almost totally factually incorrect. Well done Afitting. Patto1ro 12:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I take User:Patto1ro's point to be that he does not want the Brewer's Assoc. guidelines included in the article. I disagree. The Brewer's Assoc. is a well-known set of standards for beer styles. Certainly they may be wrong, but they should be included nonetheless. If a reliable source has criticized the Brewer's Assoc. guidelines in print, we can inculde that criticism in the article as well. — goethean ॐ 15:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The Brewer's Assoc. is a well-known set of standards for American beer styles. Last time I looked, Märzen was a German style. Including American definitions of a German style is ludicrous. Who made the Brewer's Assoc. an authority? What are their sources? Would you include Deutsche Brauer Bund definitions of an Imperial IPA? I think not. Patto1ro 21:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The website that User:Patto1ro linked to above, europeanbeerguide.net, appears to be his own home page. The other site he linked to was in German. Since this is the English wikipedia, we will not be quoting from or linking to any foreign language sites. While I welcome data from more sources, I question User:Patto1ro's motives. Additionally, he has failed to show that the Beer Assoc. data is inaccurate. — goethean ॐ 22:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

How dare you question my motives. My pages are free, non-commercial and full of properly-referenced information. That was why I linked to them. What exactly is wrong with them? Are they inaccurate? Take a look at Good Beer Guide Germany by Steve Thomas page 518 - my website is quoted as one of his references. Get in touch with him and ask him if I know what I'm talking about:

http://www.german-breweries.com/Contact

The ABA pages do not include proper information on their sources. Prove that they ARE accurate.

Exactly what are my ulterior motives? I would like the Wikopedia to be accurate. Any German brewing professional reading the Märzen article would be shocked, depressed and never take the Wikipedia seriously again.

Like I said before, this argument has only convinced me to stop contributing to the Wikipedia. I think it will be the Wikipedia's loss, not mine. I'll have more time to devote to my own pages and not get distracted by stupid, destructive arguments like these. Patto1ro 23:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

  • I included my translation of the DBB description in one of my previous edits. I welcome correction/clarification of my translation as I am not a native speaker of German. Patto1ro's motives aren't clear to me either, and I certainly don't appreciate the undeserved and inappropriate personal attacks. While I believe that the loss of meaningful and accurate contributions is a loss for Wikipedia; under the circumstances I don't think the loss of Patto1ro's comments will be a significant loss to this particular article. I thank him for highlighting the DBB reference, and recommend Yoga. --Loquacious A 07:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Is anyone else bothered by the style of this article? It's less a consistent encyclopedia article than it is a patchwork of block-quotes and citations, without the kind of basic authority that better Wikipedia articles have. I'd be interested in seeing the article itself say more about the style, in continuous, graceful prose, and if no one else is interested (and, of course, if no one else objects), I'd like to try my hand at it. -- Dunkelweizen 15:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)