Talk:Lydian language

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[edit] Classification within Anatolian

Billposer, here is the exact quote from Anatolian Luwian / Hittite expert Professor MacQueen on p. 159, regarding Lydian:

"Linguistically Lydian too is related to the Hittite-Luwian group, but the curious thing is that unlike most of its contemporaries it seems to be a descendant of the Hittite rather than the Luwian sub-branch. One has to assume that in the disturbances following the collapse of the Hittite Empire a central Anatolian group had seized power among the ruins of Arzawa, and a memory of this may be preserved in the Herodotean story of a Heraclid dynasty with eastern connections which gained power in Lydia about 1200 BC. One king of this dynasty has the name Myrsilus, and we may see in him a late descendant and namesake of the Hittite king Mursilis."

The reference you added was a 2004 work by a Benjamin Fortson. Would you mind quoting exactly what he might have to say, that might contadict this view; I have also read in other earlier works that Lydian language is considered to come from Hittite instead of Luwian. Thanks! ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

MacQueen's expertise is in history and archaeology. He has no expertise in linguistics. I have added a reference to an article by Craig Melchert, one of the leading specialists in Anatolian languages. At pp. 601-602 he says:

the position of Lydian within the Anatolian group is unique and problematic...Lydian undeniably shows a number of features which are not shared by any other language of the Anatolian group. The limited evidence makes assessment of this fact difficult: are these unique features archaisms preserved only in Lydian, or do they result from a series of peculiarly pre-Lydian developments? Until a more satisfactory answer to this question is available, the status of Lydian within Anatolian will remain a "special" one.

I'm travelling and don't have my copy of Fortson to hand, but he too regards Lydian as an oddball within Anatolian. I am not aware of any recent source by a professional Indo-Europeanist that regards Lydian as a descendant of Hittite or Luwian. When I asked him about this by email Melchert was surprised at the idea and said that it must be someone's misunderstanding of the linguistic literature. The actual debate among the experts, now considered settled, has been whether Lydian belongs to the Anatolian subgroup at all. Bill 15:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Now considered settled? What do you mean there? What settlement did they reach? I'm going to use Adiego as a source and he presents it as Anatolian using also the words "special position within Anatolian." This presents a certain problem for Wikipedia articles (they are no doubt easily problematic), as Lydia is presented as being on the location of Arzawa and Arzawa is presented as having spoken Luwian. If that is so then where does the special position come from? Melchert is professionally very polite but I don't have to be so polite. I have read more baloney on the Internet about Lydian in the last few days than I ever read in the previous 20 years. I'll never read another book about it without a very careful assessment of who wrote the book. Myths of the Tyrrhenian Trojans and Lydian Etruscans die pretty hard. Are there some Etruscans in there somewhere, maybe just a pocket or two, that don't show up in Arzawa? Can there really be similarites between Lydian and Etruscan even though they are not even of the same family? So, the Arzawa article needs to be gone over and if in fact Arzawa was there and it did in fact speak Luwian then these discrepancies need to be pointed out in the articles.Dave (talk) 03:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well I won't argue with Melchert, he is indeed without a doubt the highest caliber expert on the subject, but I can't help wondering where MacQueen got this idea, and I do vaguely recall seeing it elsewhere, so if I ever find a more fuller explanation some day, I'll let ya know here! Have a nice day, ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Breaking out script

I found at least as much material on Lydian as I did on Lycian so what I plan to do is break out Lydian script parallel to Lycian script. I can say at least as much in Lydian language and Lydian Script as is said in Lycian language and Lycian script using the same sources and will before I finish this session.Dave (talk) 03:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)