Talk:Ljudevit Posavski

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Contents

[edit] Cleanup

What's wrong?

  • bad italicisation
  • links in headings
  • seems to be too many unnecessary links
  • missing capitalisation

Srnec 22:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the Serbs

It seems that the Serbs mentioned here are people of the Srb county in Lika. I won't edit anything concerning this for now, meaning a month or two. In the meantime, I would be grateful for any replies on this issue.Mor Vilkacis 23:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

If you find any sources, place that here. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Source

It should be mentioned that the only surviving source for Ljudevit are Einhardt's annals, and since Einhard always glorified the Franks successes and usually didnt mention their defeats, the view on the entire event is pro-Frankish. An example is the fact that Einhard never mentions Franksih defeat, instead saying things like "they returned leaving their work mostly undone". Another is the amount of casualties Ljudevit suffers - 3000 men would be crippling casualties for a small early medieval state. One more thing, Ljudevit didn't flee to Borna, but to Borna's uncle Ljudemisl, who at first accepted him, but then had him killed from ambush.

Be bold, and corect it yourself. --HolyRomanEmperor 10:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarified Croat Connection

  • Changed link to Medieval state of Croatia instead of previous Pannonia b/c more relevant;
  • Changed Slav link to Croats;
  • Changed Pannonian reference to Pannonian Croats b/c better reflects actual population of the time and it's role as a forerunner to the Kingdom of Croatia;
  • Removed refernce to expanding "Croatian lands eastward" as it represents an opinion based on a certain interpretation of the annals;
  • Removed reference to controlling much of Dalmatia as it caries little meaning because the roman province of Dalmatia wcovered an extensive area.

iruka 08:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

But you also removed mentions of Serbs. --PaxEquilibrium 22:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Correction - Removed mention of Serbs in 'introduction' b/c carries little relevance to his rule & b/c it's already covered in whole section in the main article devoted to Serbs. iruka 03:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Partial rv
  • returned link to Medieval state of Croatia b/c directly relevant - Ljudevit was a duke of the medieval Croat state in Pannonia. However made link to Pannonia article at the start of the main article;
  • kept reference to Serbs in introduction, but rewrote to give more context.
  • Changed Slav link to Croats - again b/c relevance. Ljudevit was the Duke of Pannonian Croats, Borna, Duke of Dalmatian Croats;
  • Changed Dlamatia link to History of Dalmatia link - b/c more relevant. Created Dalmatia link elsewhere in article.
  • Changed Pannonian reference to Pannonian Croats b/c better reflects actual population of the time and it's role as a forerunner to the Kingdom of Croatia.
iruka 03:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Removed refernce to expanding "Croatian lands eastward" as it represents an opinion based on an interpretation of the Frankish annals. iruka 03:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
That's better. :) However, I don't see your reformulation in the intro - while he ruled the Serbs, he did not rule the Croats - so why change that part. Also, his expansions of the Croatian state eastwards are completely logical - never did a Croatian state include Syrmia, for instance. --PaxEquilibrium 12:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Can you explain by what you mean he didn't rule the Croats. The precursor of the kingdom of Croatia was comprise of Croat Dukedoms in Pannonia and Dalmatia corresponding to Pannonian Croat and Dalmatian Croat populations. iruka 13:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
He fled; abandoned his real - and never restored - rule over the Croats. This reflects that he ruled Pannonia, and then extended his territories to include Serbia - but he did no such thing. He stopped being the Croat ruler - and became the Serb ruler (of a totally different political faction). In the end he lost that throne as well, leaving him to live in further exile in the heart of his enemy - which eventually brought death upon him. --PaxEquilibrium 21:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I see what you mean now. I've rewritten to correct that ambiguity - can you pls review; also added the significance Ljudevit's in laying groundwork for unification of Pannonian & Dalmatian Croatian Duchies. iruka 00:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem I see with extending lands eastward remark is that the borders between the various medieval entities were very fluid, and the question of permanancy or when it happened is highly debateable. Croatia's borders moved east and west and finally adopted a crescent shape as a result of Turkish expansion and Hasburg counter-response. Serbia's moved east & west, south until it moved north. These developments ebb and flow and one cannot point to a decisive moment for such historical phenomena. iruka 00:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, historians always (up to the 1990s - I guess the brake-up-of-Yugo-disease cough up with them) noted (read: always with no exception) that this was the first panYugoslavic attempt, unifying Slovenes, a large number of Croats and even many Serbs (speaking about futuristic nations, normally - or better "Pannonians", "Timokians", "Karantanians", etc.). His attempts were often called upon by Alexander Karadjordjevic, the Illyrists and other similar people. And I personally believe that his attempts made no relevance to the actual unification of all Croat lands - but pan-Slavic gathering. --PaxEquilibrium 10:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A question regarding comment

A question posed to author of this posting:
What does this comment mean [1]?
"...Southern Dalmatia Serb"?Kubura 13:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

a reply on Kubura's talk page:

Re: Serbs settled the southern, larger, half of the Province of Dalmatia; Croats settled the northern, slightly smaller, half of the Province (I'm not going to get into Illyricum & Praevalis complications). --PaxEquilibrium 20:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
True. Many people use(d) double standards like User:Medule; at numerous occasions denying that these people are Croats and that Serbs lived from central Arboria to the river of Cetina at the same time... a very naughty thing to do. --PaxEquilibrium 12:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Western Bosnia

PE can you please explain what means "Western Bosnia"? I am removing the "western" because I think that is misleading. Do you talk about today Bosnia? Becuase if you do, that would be wrong since what is today "Western Bosnia" was part of Croatia in medieval times. So basically stating Ljudevit fled to western Bosnia would collide with the rest stated in the section. Western Bosnia in the terms of Ljudevit's time would be somewhere around river Bosna or Sana. That is why I also think theory about Ljudevit fleeing to Srb at Una is also completely wrong. Is it possible we can somehow incorporate this into the article without confusing those who don't know much about the history of the region? --Verancin 23:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)