Talk:Little Turtle

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[edit] Quotes

If anyone can find good quotations from Little Turtle, please post them on the Wikiquote page. I've seen some things quoted on stones around Fort Wayne, Indiana and I'd like to get out and copy them down at some point. If anyone else has access to sources that I don't have, please take a few minutes to type them up. I'd like Michikinikwa to have as well-developed a quote page as Tecumseh (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tecumseh). --Jpbrenna 19:24, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American Casualties

Casualty statistics from "That Dark and Bloody River", by Allan W. Eckert, Bantam Books, December 1995. InternetHero 15:51, 15 April - 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of the name?

I know all the literature cites his name to mean "Little Turtle" but I really question it because the word "Little" nor the diminutive suffix is in the romanized rendering of his name "Mishikinakwa". The "mishi" part means "large" and "akinâkwa" means "turtle", and so if he is named after his father, either the "mishi" part of his father's name is missing (as in, his name should have been recorded as "Michacquinâcque" in French) or something is missing from the recorded name of "Little Turtle" (as in, his name should have been recorded either as "Mishikinakwas"/"Michacquinâcquece" or "Picha-mishikinakwa"/"Pitcha-michacquinâcque"). CJLippert 21:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think all the literature equates "Mishikinakwa" with "Little Turtle". I don't have any books in front of me right now, but I believe the Carter biography indicates that Little Turtle and his father had identical names (i.e. "Mishikinakwa" or a variant), and the "Little" was an added nickname, perhaps only in English. Usually Little Turtle (the son) was simply called "Turtle" by English speakers, I believe.

It's startling, by the way, how little primary documentation on Little Turtle there is. Historian John Sugden believes that the biography of Little Turtle as we have come to know it is basically an invention of 19th century historians (for example, there are no contemporary documents that refer to Little Turtle's involvement in La Balme's defeat). I think the relationship between Little Turtle and his "father" is also surmised and not well documented. (Writer Allan Eckert, who frequently confuses Indian identities, identifies the two men as one-in-the-same in his book Wilderness Empire, which would put Little Turtle in his 60s or older when he was leading men in battle in the 1790s -- quite a feat.) I won't bore everyone with the details, but I believe that Carter's argument that the two men were father and son, based on a speech by Little Turtle referred to in our article Pickawillany, is unsound for a couple of reasons. So, who knows? —Kevin Myers 23:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Then, I wonder if Mishikinakwa was even related to Acquinâcque, if the familial connection was assumed from a speech, because in all Algonquian languages, "my father" is term of respectful address, just as in English one would use "gentlemen" even when addressing a group of non-noblemen. Thanks. CJLippert 15:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Other wikipedia articles suggest a family relationship between Tacumwah, Pacane, and Little Turtle. If this is true, would it contradict the relationship between Little Turtle and the Turtle of Pickawillany? Maybe the section about Little Turtle's parents could be rewritten so that the relationship with "Turtle" is included as one popular theory, but not historical fact. Mingusboodle (talk) 17:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the article on Tacumwah is mistaken when it says that she was a sister of both Pacanne and Little Turtle: only Pacanne was her brother, as far as I know. As for Turtle & Little Turtle, we can't really cast doubt on the relationship in the article because I don't know of any published sources that questions it. My doubts about the relationship are strictly of the "original research" variety. —Kevin Myers 19:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

In regards to the "Little" part of his name, William Wells referred to him as "Little Turtle" in a letter to Meriwether Lewis. Perhaps that was not his original name or the best translation, but it was apparently good enough.

In regards to Little Turtle's family, I continue to read sources that say he was Tacumwah's brother (instead of- or in addition to- Pacanne). I think that's worth ignoring in this article, and addressing the question in the Tacumwah article- if at all. I also have read various accounts of Little Turtle's father. Is Aquenackquah considered to be the same person as Mishikinakwa, or are those two different people? Mingusboodle (talk) 18:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The ANB entry on Little Turtle does say that Tacumwah was his sister, while Donald Gaff's "Three Men from Three Rivers" (in Barr, ed., The Boundaries Between Us) says that sources suggesting a family relationship are "conflicting", which is to be expected, given the differing cultural concepts of kinship and the vagaries of translation. I guess we could mention this in both articles.

Yes, "Aquenackquah" and "Mishikinakwa" (the elder) are the same person--or at least the names have been used interchangeably. "Aquenackquah" is apparently a different attempt to spell "Mishikinakwa", but with the "Mish" left off, as Mr. Lippert above suggests. —Kevin Myers 02:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)