Talk:List of peaks by prominence

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

please can someone add a column for key saddle height?--195.144.131.12 09:10, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You can find the key saddle heights here: [1]

Contents

[edit] Coordinates in degrees?

I would recommend if someone add a column for coordinates of the peaks. Same as what we have in List of highest mountains. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.243.65 (talk) 11:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parent peak?

This table is a mess, but chiefly, I want to ask how "parent peak" is being defined here. Given that the relative height (topographic prominence) is the difference between the absolute height of the summit and the absolute height of the col separating it from any higher summit, I have always used the highest of those other higher summits as the parent. This seems to me to be the only objective way to do it. It makes no sense to have a "parent" coming after a "child" on the list. By my method, a parent is not only higher (absolute) than its child, but also has greater relative height (topographic prominence). One can, therefore, merely scan up the list to see which peaks are possible parents of a given peak. Relatively few of the peaks on this list have got their parents listed so far anyway, so it would not be too hard to replace them with true parents, rather than the nearest higher peak the other side of the col. It would also prevent glaring errors like Damavand being listed as the parent of Elbrus, even though it's lower. Any objections? --Stemonitis 08:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Well, I've been bold, in the absence of any nay-sayers, and made those changes. Someone had requested a column for the col height, so I've put that in. I've also added in the parents for as many as I could work out. Most of them must be true from pure logic, but there are a few where I've made educated guesses which could be wrong, and a few I couldn't work out. In particular, someone who understands Asian mountain geography better than me would do well to sort out the remaining orphans. --Stemonitis 12:56, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, the parent peak of a mountain (as defined in the source websites) is the topographically nearest higher peak - the peak from which its prominence is calculatd. It's a little unreasonable to regard Mont Blanc as a subpeak odf Everest, when clearly from a Caucasian point of view it's little more than a shoulder of Elbrus. :-) This was the definition I had in mind when Gdr and I created this page. Thanks for all your work on the paghe, thjough - it was me who made the above request. --Mark J 20:39, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I do not see how Everest can be Kilimanjaro's parent, as it is on a different continent and different continental plate. The plates just happen to be touching at the moment, although the Suez Canal is now between them. Unlike the Panama Canal, it is at sea level, so I do not see why it should not count as a separation. If the prominence can go underwater and across continents like that, then wouldn't Everest be the parent of every other mountain on Earth? -- Kjkolb 17:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Before the artificial Suez canal was built, it was possible to go from Africa to Asia without descending lower than 10 metres. There is plenty of debate within the prominence community about whether these artificial phenomena should count, but at present the standard practice is that they do not. By the definitions of island parentage and prominence parentage, which you can read in the prominence article, Everest is Kilimajaro's parent. By height parentage, a lower peak than Everest (about 6,000m) along the ridge to Everest will be the parent. I do not know what that peak is and I am not convinced there is a rigid definition. But no, Everest is not the parent of all Africa/Eurasia, by any definition; read the definitions carefully. Viewfinder 19:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Elaborating on Viewfinder's last sentence: Everest is an ancestor of every peak on Earth, in fact the "oldest ancestor"--think "Adam", if so inclined. But it is not the parent of every peak, just as Adam would not be the parent of every human. Mountains have parents, grandparents, and whole lineages of ancestors. This is true using any definition of "parent", although different definitions will yield very different lineages. -- Spireguy 20:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Expanding that thought a little more: I would not list e.g. Aconcagua on this table as having "no parent"---I would say that its parent is in fact Everest. That way no special cases need to be excluded. But I'm not dogmatic about it. See the topographic prominence page or its talk page for more. -- Spireguy 20:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
(Edit conflict, I have not read the above yet, I'm going to bed) I meant by prominence only and I know that mountains far apart can be parents and children according to the definition, it just seems like the definition is taken to such an extreme that it does not have much meaning. As for all of the peaks having Everest as the parent, I stated that completely wrong (it's been a long night). I actually meant every peak that would have Everest as a parent, if being separated by the ocean did not matter. Anyway, if that is what the experts consider it to be, then that is what we should have. It just seems hard to believe. Thanks, Kjkolb 20:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I guess I qualify as an expert, but I don't pretend to be authoritative. I agree that the "parent" of a peak becomes a less useful notion the further away that parent is. This is especially a problem for the prominence island parent; see the prominence page and its talk page. But that doesn't mean that the parent can't be said to exist. Now, I'm a mathematician, and I'm used to a definition covering all cases, even extreme special cases; that is elegant and simple, and those are core mathematical values. Other people have different preferences. -- Spireguy 03:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

Can someone change the flag by Mount Cameroon to Cameroon's rather than Cambodia's? I can't figure out what the proper three-letter code is. BrianSmithson 23:19, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. It is now fixed. The code was {{CMR}} incidentally. --Stemonitis 07:59, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Key Saddle Data Source

You correctly cite [2], but then state that the saddle data is derived from "satellite images, probably more accurate than maps".

That is not correct. Satellite images are not more accurate than maps. I updated the saddle data on [3]from digital elevation models supplied by SRTM based on radar interferograms. For most of the world, these are more accurate than maps.

Please update this in the main article.Viewfinder

Amendment not carried out so I amended it myself Viewfinder

Kongur Tagh: Chinese sources disagree, some give 7719m, some 7649m. The strong evidence supporting the lower elevation can be found [here]. Viewfinder 21:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I have deleted the link to a table which contains inaccurate prominences. The author has told me he will update this table; the link will then be restored. The inaccuracies are only in the prominence column of the table concerned; in general I have a high regard for the site that hosts this table. Viewfinder 23:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mount Hermon prominence and other additions

I have chosen to revert, rather than correct, the Mount Hermon addition by an anonymous user with no knowledge of prominence. Wikipedia should be discouraging this sort of thing. For the correct prominence, go to [4]. I welcome selective additions to Wikipedia's prominence lists, and the addition of prominence to the boxes of the individual Wikipedia mountain pages, but I do not want there to be more and generally longer prominence or height lists on Wikipedia because I do not think Wikipedia adequately credits the researchers, none of whom are paid to carry out their research. The external links to the various prominence sites on the web are adequate. Viewfinder 09:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I have replaced that addition, and updated it. In general, it is better to encourage potential editors than to discourage them. Wikipedia does credit the researchers, by citing them; that is what the External links and References sections are for. --Stemonitis 09:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

While I expected, accept and have added to your replacement, I think that there is too much misinformation on Wikipedia so I decided to make a point. On the subject of external links and references, these are generally at the bottom of long lists and are frequently not seen. In theory, much of the prominence information on Wikipedia could be reverted on copyright grounds. I do not want that to happen because I want Wikipedia to continue to promote prominence, but not all my research colleagues agree. I think the balance is about right at present; the correct addition of a limited number of the best known summits, like Mount Hermon, would be good.Viewfinder 10:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

A relative height is a fact, and is ineligible for copyright. If the presentation of the relative heights were copied (e.g. wholesale copying of the tables, maps etc. from those excellent websites), then there would be a copyright issue, but not when just using the numbers. Still, until Wikipedia has comprehensive information on all mountains, it will never become a serious rival to the prominence sites, and we haven't got a problem. I appreciate your concerns but I think they're at best a little premature. --Stemonitis 10:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

"A fact... is ineligible for copyright" is an interesting observation indeed. Later today I will comment on that on my talk page. Viewfinder 13:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lists of mountains

Normally I handle articles on birds and animation, but after stopping by your userpage, I felt compelled to do a mountain list of my own. Of course, I decided to cover an area I know somewhat better than the British Isles: List of mountains and hills of Arizona by height. Hope it's up to snuff.

Next up: replacing the horribly inadequate List of mountains in Japan with a comprehensive list comparative to what we've got for the British Isles and Arizona. (Good thing I can read Japanese!) At some point in time I need to cobble up relative height / prominence lists for Arizona and Japan as well, but one thing at a time, right?

Hope you don't mind me using your formats for these. Cheers and have a good Wiki day! -- Miwa 00:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A cut-off for the list?

Recent additions have been including smaller and smaller mountains, and there's no knowing where it'll end up. I would like to suggest we set a voluntary cut-off of something like 2 000 m realtive height for inclusion on this list (which, by my calculations would then include something like 234 mountains, worldwide). Dropping the cut-off to the height of Carrauntoohill would increase the list's size (were it to be comprehensive) to around 800 peaks. Another quick calculation suggests that we can fit about 200 peaks into the tables before we hit the 32 kB recommended limit for articles. It would seem a shame to undo people's efforts in adding mountains here, but then again, mountains the size of Carrauntoohill really aren't significant on a global scale. --Stemonitis 16:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

In principle, you are right, but I think there is still room for mountains that, like Ben Nevis, Carrauntoohil, Hermon, are well known to a high percentage of Wikipedia readers, and these are preferable to lesser known mountains even if they are less prominent. I think there is a case for having the top 100, plus another 50-100 selected not by pure prominence rank, but because they are well known and readers might like to know their prominences. For example, spectacular mountains like Matterhorn and Mount Kailash, which have relatively low prominence but are highly ranked by "spire measure", would be acceptable additions for me. But if we all start adding our personal favorites, we will need start wielding our axes. This is becoming a problem on some other mountain sites, which have been growing in a disorganised manner. Viewfinder 18:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Stemonitis, www.peaklist.org lists over 1500 peaks with >1500m of prominence, so dropping down to 1000m would give at least 3000 peaks. Obviously we can't go that far (though you have to admit it would be cool). --Mark J 20:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Low prominence peaks

I have added some of these in the additional peaks section, for the benefit of readers who do not understand why they are not in lists ranked by prominence. The inclusion of these, which are often cited by opponents of the prominence concept, may seem wrong. But, although these mountains are the most impressive, they are either not the high points of their local ranges, or their ranges are not separated from other ranges by low passes. Prominence favours continental, regional and local high points; for impressiveness, other measures should be considered.

[edit] Mont Blanc and other snow and ice capped peaks

The most commonly quoted elevation for Mont Blanc, which appears on most maps, is 4,808 m. This is supported by [5] (see page 8). Some authorities and measurements give 4,810 m. In reality, there is no definitive correct elevation because the thickness of the snow and ice cap varies. It would therefore seem best to stick to the long accepted 4,808 m, and for similar reasons, to 8,848 m for Everest. Note that the summit of the snow cap is always taken as the summit when Mont Blanc, and most other summits, are measured. This policy should be applied consistently. Authorities who breach it by claiming or implying that the 8,844 m rock head elevation of Mount Everest measured by the Chinese in 2005 is its true height should be corrected. Viewfinder 12:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Artificial saddles

At present, prominence researchers have accepted that saddles should be based on natural saddles, and artificial cuttings, e.g. Panama, Suez should not be taken into account. In keeping with this, I have restored the saddle of Kilimanjaro to 10m. Not all researchers have accepted this practice willingly. But for now, if you wish to challenge this practice, please continue the discussion here, rather than create inconsistencies by changing the main article. Viewfinder 16:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It follows from the above the the two American continents are considered to be a single prominence landmass, with a single "island" high point. Ditto Eurasia and Africa. Viewfinder 17:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] table still a mess

This table is still a mess, several parent peaks are listed on the wrong mountains. I still don't completely understand the definitions, so if someone who knows a little more about the subject could attempt a cleanup it would be great. RichMac (Talk) 15:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The definitions of prominence and parents are given on the topographic prominence page. Please study them, give some examples to support your claim that pareant peaks are wrongly listed, and refrain from unsupported comments like "table is still a mess". Thanks. Viewfinder 16:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I also have no idea what the "still a mess" comment refers to. Specifics, please? -- Spireguy 22:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess this is an old conversation, but I agree the table is a mess. How is Aconcagua the parent of MtMcKinley which is 5,000 miles away? My impression was that parent peaks had to be in the same range so that the other peak was clearly subordinate to it - not a continent away. I would argue that Mt Elbert in Colorado is not subordinate to Mt Whitney, 1,000 miles away in California, even though they're both arguably part of the same mountain range. Unless this column gets clarified, I vote that we remove it and just put the information in the individual mountain pages. Papercrab (talk) 04:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

McKinley is the highest peak in North America; by any of the definitions, its parent is in South America, a long way away. Unless you want to say that the highest peak of a range has no parent, but then you need a definition of a range.
—WWoods (talk) 06:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Timor HP

I reverted the addition of Ramelau because it was already shown as Tatamailau 2986m. Timor cannot have two high points. But both the name Ramelau and height 2963m may be more accurate. Any comments? Viewfinder 23:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Currently, Gunung Tata Mailau redirects to Mount Ramelau, which begins,
"Mount Ramelau, or Mount Tatamailau, is the highest mountain in East Timor at 2963 metres. ..."
Not many hits on google for 'Ramelau Tatamailau' that don't look like wikipedia or copies thereof, but Time magazine had a story in 2002 saying:
"Mount Ramelau, or Tatamailau, as the maps label it, was once the ... the 2,963-m-high peak ..."
An article in a Portuguese Navy magazine (Portugal was the colonial power) says,
"Tatamailau, o pico mais alto da montanha do Ramelau. Com os seus 2996 metros de altitude, ..." I take this to be saying that Tatamailau is the name of the mountain and Ramelau is the name of the range.
The report of an Australian conference on East Timor says,
"The highest mountain with a height of 2,963 metres is the Tatamailau peak of the Ramelau Range in the Ainaro district."
Searching for 'Gunung Tata Mailau' finds
Tata Mailau, 2986 meters on peakbagger.org and
Foho Tatamailau 2986 on peaklist.org
—wwoods 01:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I corrected the location of this peak. It is in East Timor, not Indonesia. Its page still have 2,963 m as height. Zdtrlik 17:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mount Sidley Parent

I doubt the parent of Mount Sidley can be Mount Gardner, since Gardner does not appear on peaklist's List of Antarctica Ultra-prominences. I probably knew the actual parent at one time when I was researching this stuff, but I must say I have forgotten. It seems that it must be either Vinson Massif, Mount Minto, or Mount Kirkpatrick. Anyone want to clear this up? Viewfinder, maybe? -- Spireguy 04:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The island parent has to be Vinson. I am not sure about other definitions of parentage, I find these confusing and I still do not think they are rigidly defined. Btw the USGS GNIS says 4285m but the USGS 250k topo says 4181m. Any comments on which is more accurate? Viewfinder 07:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about that, I was using the "Nearest Higher Neighbor" info from Peakbagger when I added Sidley to the list. But I guess that only gives the height parentage, and the list is using island or prominence parentage. By the way, Spireguy, I noticed you added the prominence to the Sidley article . . . but that prominence is based on the 4285m elevation, not 4181 as listed. So either the elevation or the prominence needs to be changed for consistency. Seattle Skier 09:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
In general I would say that the 250K map would be more accurate; GNIS is noted for having a number of errors. However Antarctic mapping is pretty unreliable. I would go with the 250K unless there is some reason to do otherwise (besides the GNIS); I'll try to see if I have any info to clear it up. Damien Gildea's articles on Antarctica might mention Sidley. -- Spireguy 02:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zugspitze

I don't know what the parent(s) of Zugspitze is/are. According to peakbagger, its key saddle is at 1,216m, at 47°22′N 10°50′E / 47.367, 10.833
—wwoods 14:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The highest point within the ring contour on the other side of that col is Mont Blanc (along with most of the Western Alps), which is therefore the island parent. The other definitions of parentage have never really meant much to me, so I can't say much about them. --Stemonitis 15:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


where is k2? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.35.135 (talk) 11:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It's number 22. It may not be all that close to Mount Everest but it is part of the same Himalaya range and therefore not the highest peak in its range. Viewfinder 03:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] San Jacinto Peak/Mount San Gorgonio

Mount San Gorgonio (3506m) is the hightest peak in Southern California, and San Jacinto Peak tops the second-highest range (3302m) about 35km away. But San Gorgonio's prominence is 2524m while that of San Jacinto is 2533m. They are sixth and seventh most prominent in the contiguous U.S.[6] San Jacinto is also notable for the steep Snow Creek escarpment, which gains over 2500m in just 11.3km of distance. For those reasons I propose replacing replacing San Gorgonio on the list "Additional peaks" with San Jacinto. Any objections? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)