Talk:List of national founding fathers

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List of national founding fathers is part of WikiProject Leaders by year, a project to compile lists of leaders throughout history. This includes State leaders by year, Religious leaders by year, Colonial governors by year and International organization leaders by year. If you would like to help expand and improve these lists then please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.

Contents 1 What Islamic state? 2 Put USA on top of examples list. 3 Churchill and a few name changes. 4 Portugal has no such thing 5 List 6 Why only countries and states? 7 Azerbaijan in Europe?

[edit] What Islamic state?

The Pakistan Jinnah founded was not a constitutionally defined Islamic state. It was a state based modelled on British lines with a British constitution and where there was a separation of church and state.

While Pakistan later became an islamic republic... that was after his death.

>>>Correction: Jinnah did not give Pakistan a constitution, Pakistan had no constitution while he was alive. Also, Paksitan was founded as an Islamic state as according to the TWO NATION THEORY, regardless of the fact that Jinnah in his private life was a secular person.

The Lahore Resolution and the Two Nation Theory did not envisage Pakistan as an Islamic state. Those who wanted an Islamic state were opposed to Jinnah. Also you ought to update yourself on your information. Pakistan had an interim constitution: Government of India Act, 1935 adapted as the Pakistani Constitution. Jinnah wanted to give Pakistan a secular constitution, it is well known. Egopearl 07:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Put USA on top of examples list.

I put the USA on the top of the example list; most people looking for "founding fathers" would mean "founding fathers of the USA" anyway.

Oh yeah, I'm registered, but something on the log-in page fails on my browser (Opera). My username is leokennis...

I might add that's why I came here...I've never even heard it used outside of the US before with a few South American exceptions. Is this actually native usage or a really weird attempt at cultural neutrality? The examples of European "foudning fathers" seems like more than a stretch. If you want to run to weird foundational arguments I didn't even see mention of Charlemagne :) Nickjost 23:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a redirect to the page on US founding fathers, and it is a common term for other countries to adopt (although in some cases it is the same meaning but with different terms - "father of the nation" or "fathers of confederation" for example). It is a term often used in reference to those of the European Union, in fact in most countries it seems to be a tool of nationalism as it has now become one of the most have symbols. Most are cited though so you can check out the sources for what terms etc are used. - J Logan ^t: 08:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Evidently no less than George H. Nash claims that the term was coined by Warren Harding and used for "American" founding fathers. The links that use founding fathers here don't appear to be that scholarly. It is a formal term and a formal term associated with the development of the US which is why it can be used without a modifier and in plural form, "the Founding Fathers" in the US where it can't be elsewhere. Nickjost (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly or not it has begun to be used commonly in other states, or at least its meaning. Do you have an alternative term to use that will convey the same thing to the reader?- J Logan ^t: 10:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Given scholarly usage and the fact that this is a minority viewpoint in the language at large and, oddly enough, only in English, wouldn't this constitute a minority opinion per NPOV? Nickjost (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Anyone??? Nickjost (talk) 21:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Minority viewpoint in the US maybe, not in those countries listed though. That's why they're on there. You could dispute a few but on the whole I'd cosndier it POV to just have the US. This is after all a list of states, the US FFs have their own page too.- J Logan ^t: 14:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Churchill and a few name changes.

I added Winston Churchill to the list of European founding fathers, and I renamed it from "Europe" to "European Union" to clarify. Churchill on many occasions spoke of the need for a "United States of Europe". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Walshicus (talk • contribs) 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portugal has no such thing

Portugal has no such thing as "founding fathers." The example given is that of a count whose son became a king - singular, so in any case the country would have a single "founding father." In fact, Afonso I of Portugal is sometimes referred to as "father of the [Portuguese] nationhood," but to call him "fathers" is to stretch the definition a bit too much. Other monarchs have been instrumental in Portugal's independence throughout the years, but they are not known collectively by any name.

And what in heaven's name is Mário Soares doing in the founding fathers of the European Union? What did he do, except sign Portugal into the Community in 1986? And wouldn't any other prime-minister do the same thing? – Tintazul ^msg 11:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List

Unless this is expanded more on the topics of founding fathers, this ought to be renamed "List of founding fathers". - J Logan ^t: 19:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why only countries and states?

Why not include scholarly or scientific fields. With the current contents I propose to rename the article to list of founding fathers of states. Andries (talk) 22:16, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the reason "nationa" was added in the title. Says the same thing.- J Logan ^t: 14:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Azerbaijan in Europe?

I can't really see a reason why Azerbaijan should be included in the Europe category, so I'm moving it to Asia.--Noelfielding (talk) 12:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)