Talk:List of localities (Victoria)

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I've done several redirect pages, but you really might consider changing the title of this entry (for which you've done so much work) to "Localities in Victoria" or some variation thereof; perhaps prefacing it with "List of..." in Wikipedian style. A problem is that "Victorian" most frequently connotes the Victorian Era to most non-Australians, and upon first glance, many might think this entry looks at locations mentioned in the novels of Dickens, etc!

Just a thought...

Moncrief, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Earlier this evening the page got moved from Victorian Localities to Victorian localities, and my main aim with it at this stage is to get (at least the Melbourne) part of it done. So before it gets moved, I'll have to make sure that everything that links to it points to the right place. But you raise a really great point, thanks for pointing it out :)
- AJ
Okay, the page got moved to List of localities (Victoria). Anyone reading this see a city or suburb they are familiar with, please help out with an article. Cheers, AJ.

I've gone through and tried to get all the localities that actually pointed to a place or thing somewhere else, and marking any stubs I found along the way. Out of curiosity, why was every Melbourne locality mentioned, and not every Victorian locality? I'll start targeting some of those I'm familiar with soon. Ambivalenthysteria, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Adding all the localities in the state would easily double or even triple (?) the size of the article, in which case it might be better to put the Melbourne suburbs in their own article and link to it from this one. Hypernovean 08:02, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. Would the Melbourne suburbs stay in this article as well, or would they be moved off completely into the new one? Ambivalenthysteria

I don't think the City of Port Phillip can reasonably be described as being in the southern suburbs of Melbourne. It is well to the north of the geographical and demographic centres of the city. I would group the Cities of Melbourne, Yarra and Port Phillip as "inner city" councils. Also the huge headings are very ugly. I will have a go at some re-designing. Adam 06:11, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I fixed the links to various municipalities; many Melbourne municipalities already have articles or stubs. Check Local_Government_Areas_of_Victoria to avoid duplicate articles...

"Shire of ..." vs. "... Shire": It seems that there is an interchangability between the two amongst the various shires in Melbourne and the state; e.g. Mornington Peninsula Shire and Shire of Mornington Peninsula seem to both be used by the local government itself (from Googling). Currently, all the Greater Melbourne Shires are "Shires of" and all the regional ones are suffixed. I think one or the other needs to be used for all the shires. Just that I'm a stickler for consistency... Hypernovean 10:58, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I am trying to create consistency so please refrain from editing these pages while I am doing so. Adam 11:00, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Suburb Adjacency Tables

An idea I'm testing out is the adjacency table as a way to cross link associated suburbs. The table would go at the bottom of individual suburb pages; possibly also the local government pages to indicate adjacent municipalities. Go to Glen Iris to see it. Tell me what you think, particularly if it looks obvious that the cells represent the points of the compass. Please create these tables for any suburb pages you create (if there's support for the idea of course). Thankyou.

Hypernovean 11:51, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Looks good to me. :) Ambivalenthysteria 12:16, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Same here :) - AJ

Do you think that when an adjacent suburb backs on to the current suburb in more than one direction (e.g. W and NW), the name should be duplicated in all the relevant boxes, or is it best to have less clutter? I.e. more directional accurateness, or no duplication? See Middle Park for an example.

(Thanks to Chuq for the shading and worrying about more accurate directions in the first place!)

Hypernovean 13:35, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'd be tempted to go for accuracy rather than clutter, though perhaps only link to the suburb from one direction... AJ
I think having all the boxes filled in with suburb names makes it more obvious that they are compass directions. Having empty boxes, or merging cells, makes it look my confusing. IMHO of course! The reason I started with the NW, NE etc. cells was because St Kilda had Port Phillip Bay on the west, and St Kilda West at the north-west - but I couldn't put it in the west cell because it was shaded blue (for the bay), so I put it to the north. Having St Kilda West north of St Kilda just looked wrong! --Chuq 14:05, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As an expansion of the localities project, I've added a page for the Hoddle Grid, from which pages for the major city thoroughfares (Collins Street, Swanston Street, et cetera) can be linked. Hypernovean 11:27, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wouldn't this be better located under say, Melbourne CBD, or something similar? I'm aware of how Melbourne was planned out, but I've never heard it referred to as the Hoddle Grid, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Ambivalenthysteria 21:57, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have seen it used (in newspapers etc), but I suppose Melbourne Central Business District, Melbourne CBD, Melbourne city centre, etc could be redirects. I think, historically, Hoddle Grid is an appropriate term. Maybe the page should be moved to Melbourne CBD (The Hoddle Grid) or something similar. Hypernovean 06:24, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I've heard the term too. Anyway, if you create an article called Melbourne Central Business District and created redirects at , Melbourne CBD, Melbourne city centre, etc., you could always create a section in it called #Hoddle Grid and link to that from other articles. The question with Melbourne CBD - if you do it - is how do you avoid duplication with Melbourne? Does Melbourne focus on Melbourne as a metropolitan area with Melbourne Central Business District focusing on the CBD... Cheers, AJ
I'd say that's exactly how it would work: There's a lot of important history locked up in the CBD which isn't covered in Melbourne, and probably shouldn't be. Hypernovean 05:54, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I agree. There's plenty in the CBD to support a seperate article - and I think that's the best way to work it, too. Ambivalenthysteria 08:37, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've moved the Hoddle Grid page to Melbourne central business district and fixed links/redirects. Hypernovean 14:42, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Page name change?

Does anyone else dislike the name List of localities (Victoria)? Would it be worth renaming to List of places in Victoria or something similar, bringing it in line with the other locality/place lists? The reason I'm asking is that there are now so many pages that link here that I wouldn't want to start changing all those links without some agreement as to a new name (if there should be one). Hypernovean 04:46, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It'd be a pain, but I think you're right. Either list of localities in Victoria or list of places in Victoria sounds good to me. Ambivalenthysteria 08:32, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Standard suburb page

Given that the number of suburb pages is growing over time, would having a standard page layout be a good idea? Take a look at Blackburn South for an example.

I like that page, prehaps a we should start a wikiproject - Suburbs of Melbourne? Hypernovean 12:37, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan
For starters it could be constrained to the suburb pages and the Local Government Area pages, as that's where the most activity is, but it could in future be expanded to cover train lines, railway stations, prehaps even tram routes if there were enough information to be had. And while we're at it, the locality list could be moved (see above) and the references on the suburb etc. pages changed to suit. Hypernovean 12:53, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I hadn't seen that page - it looks fantastic, AmishThrasher. I think starting a WikiProject for this, following the layout of Blackburn South, would be a good idea. Ambivalenthysteria 13:05, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)


[edit] WikiProject Melbourne

I have created the preliminary page for the WikiProject Melbourne. Please feel free to add something here, as the project is still in formulation. The primrary aim is to fill in the rail network and suburbs. The scope could expand to other elements of the city in future. Those interested in working on the above topics, please add your names to the project and join in the discussion. (There are as yet no templates or guidelines for articles, this will be updated soon). Hypernovean 08:39, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Please check that suburbs exist!

A general notice: when adding a suburb page, please check that it is actually a suburb before stubbing it as such. Go to the online Melway and type it into the suburb field and search... Occasionally, places that have been listed on this page or on the council pages are only wards within a suburb, or are locations within a suburb, not suburbs themselves. Of course, many of these places still deserve articles, but they shouldn't be called suburbs of Melbourne when they are not. Hypernovean 10:25, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Is this how we're defining suburbs? To my understanding, a locality in a suburban area is a suburb. Ambivalenthysteria 11:17, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I fully appreciate how misleading this is, to Melburnians and non-Melburnians.
I was assuming that councils have specific subdivisions that are "suburbs", and that other localitites may be considered "suburban", but aren't technically suburbs according to local governments. I think the Melway would be the best source for these. Hypernovean 12:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This could be a bit more difficult that it sounds. I know when I was working on (for example) the Shire of Yarra Ranges, and also the Shire of Mornington Peninsula, it was really hard to tell (what were suburbs and which not) without some local knowledge. I didn't have access to a Melways (online) at the time I was making all those stubs (April 22-23).

Now that I am editing the City of Moonee Valley, I am more careful. All the Wests, Easts, Norths, Souths and their geographical permutations are confusing. Also the suburbs and pseudo-suburbs with the same or similar postcodes. I will have to exercise much more judgement that I have been doing previously.

EuropracBHIT 12:10, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

At least regarding the Wests, Easts, Norths, and Souths: in Melbourne, they always come after the base suburb name, e.g. Malvern East, Vermont South, etc. (East Melbourne, West Melbourne, South Melbourne, and North Melbourne are the exceptions). And it's perfectly possible for different adjoining suburbs to have the same postcodes, so I wouldn't go by them. Hypernovean 12:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
South Morang is also an exception. There is no 'base' suburb of Morang. --Novakreo 13:41, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Just for reference: a very useful website for suburbs and places in Victoria (and the rest of Australia) is the Australian Places Gazetteer. It has some very detailed histories on practically every suburb. Hypernovean 12:09, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In Victoria, suburbs are defined by local governments, and this info is stored centrally by the state government. "Sub-suburbs" exist, and are generally known as "localities", even though this term can have a much broader meaning. Such places have their names in lower-case on Melways maps. These areas, like Deepdene and Cremore are often seen as suburbs, especially by those that live there. Additionally, shopping centre names like Highpoint are sometimes thought to be suburbs, as many surrounding businesses (not in the complex) use that name.

The Department of Infrastructure makes available an excellent list of Victorian suburbs on it's website. This list is definitative, but not completely without contraversy (ie the Deepdene issue).

Postcodes usually follow the boundaries of the council defined suburbs, although some postcodes include more than one. Some places that aren't suburbs have their own postcode (like Melbourne Uni or Mildura Centre Plaza). The suburb sometimes known as "St Kilda Rd", is unusally has the postcode "Melbourne 3006".

Note that there are two (or three?) different places with the same name and different postcodes. Most places in Victoria with the same name don't have their own suburb-postcode pair.

Also, Geoscience Australia has an excellent search engine for finding the GPS co-ordinates of nearly everywhere in Australia, including schools and Telstra buildings.

Matturn

[edit] New adjacency table template

Thanks to Jerzy. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Melbourne/Suburbs. It fixes the problem of To North etc. links being filled out with a suburb page accidentally, and makes it more obvious that the directions need to be filled out as well as placing the table.

Example: Notice the tags in the markup itself.

'
All Melbourne Suburbs
'

[edit] Article break-up, again

I know it was talked about a while ago, but I think it'd be a good idea to move this to List of localities in Victoria, so it matches the same format as we've done with everything else related to Melbourne and Victoria. Also, I wonder if we should split this up into two lists: suburbs and regional localities. I've never liked the idea of leaving all the places outside Melbourne out of this, and it's a very long page...I wonder if moving all the suburbs into their own page could be a good move.Ambivalenthysteria 05:36, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree, prehaps List of suburbs of Melbourne and List of localities in Victoria? TPK 08:36, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Sounds good. I'm taking that the suburbs wouldn't also be on the localities list, right? Ambivalenthysteria 12:28, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Given there's already a List of Sydney suburbs, why not a List of Melbourne suburbs, rather than List of suburbs of Melbourne, just for the sake of consistancy? - AJ.
For consistency's sake, I vote we move the Sydney one. :) Ambivalenthysteria 15:48, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'll go ahead and break up this page then, seeing as there are no objections. TPK