Talk:List of language regulators
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[edit] Roman Catholic Church
I don't think that the Roman Catholic Church is a let alone the language regulator of Latin. Meursault2004 5 July 2005 08:05 (UTC)
To Meursault2004, it is. There is no argument on those grounds, the doctrine and inpection of accuracy of that tongue and addendums to it are facilitated by the Vatican, it is the national language of the Vatican and no other country.
The Ofice of Latin Letters in the Vatican is the closest there is today to a regulator of Latin. I found "Latin Allocution and the Applications and Usage of Latin as a Modern Language by the Vatican City State" (Connaughton 2003) an interesting read in this regard. --CRGreathouse 22:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Oxford University as regulator of English
Also, I'm dissapointed there is no reference to English and the Oxford University School of English cited in here, I will add it if there are no arguments against it.
Jachin 22:04, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that Oxford University can be called the regulator. Some commentators say that the BBC is qualified to be the regulator, with them leading the language in Britain. Also, the English Language section says there is no regulator. Big Moira 16:24, 21 September 2005 (BST)
Personally, I am of the opinion that neither English nor Latin is regulated. That there are authorities on both is beyond doubt, yet these authorities hardly count as regulators. At the very least, a regulator should be able to introduce new words, rather than, as in the example of Oxford University, documetn current uses. — Itai (f&t) 16:09, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
- Oxford publishes a variety of prescriptive books, such as Hart's Rules (a style guide) and the Oxford Spelling Dictionary, both of which are certainly intended to be normative, even if not bindingly normative. Evertype 08:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
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- In the United States, there are several dozen style guides. I don't think Oxford can claim to have the most influential one. Ashibaka tock 17:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- The Oxford is considered to be authoritative. That does not mean that it is the only authority. (Personally I believe it is the best one, but that's my choice.) Evertype 21:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- One of the defining (and best) things about the English language is that it isn't regulated. I don't think that Oxford or Websters (or any other language authorities) can claim to be regulators of English (even de facto regulators). They simply describe the rules and styles of English at the time of printing Hart's Rules has been printed (40 times) since 1893, the language has changed a great deal since then and so has the book (I don't think anyone will claim that Hart's Rules prompted the changes in the language).Shniken 01:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- I just changed it to read "No official regulator, but accepted regulations are printed in the Oxford University dictionaries for British English and to a lesser extent Webster's Dictionary for American English."
- I think it should be changed more still to "No official regulator, but accepted regulations are printed in various dictionaries and reference books around the world". Since there are many publishers of such books (eg MacQuarie in Australia), or maybe it should be just left as "None"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shniken (talk • contribs) 10:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
- I would encourage the above proposal above (and below) that the entry for English should be changed to "No Official Regulator" or simply "None." There is no authority for English comparable to the authorities for the other languages on this list I am familiar with.
- I disagree. Although there is no official authority that regulates the English language , there are however several important references and sources, e.g. dictionaries and writing/style manuals, that are authoritative in the sense that they establish guidelines/standards which are followed by government agencies, publishing houses, newspapers, and schools/universities. Although it may be technically correct that there is "no official regulator", that statement might mislead readers into believing that no standard is recognized for written English, when, in reality, at least two standards (British and American) are clearly established. I'd go back to the original wording in the article, i.e. "no official regulator, but accepted guidelines are printed in various dictionaries and reference books around the world." 200.177.48.60 10:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
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- It is not just "technically correct". It is a difference that has been said to show different attitudes about language between English- and French-speakers, for example. And the list of important sources would be endless. There are many more national standards than Brtitish and American (there are many specifically Canadian style books, for example), and within each country many "influential" style books exist. This situation is not comparable to languages with regulators. Joeldl 16:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- No one is claiming that there is a language regulator for English. The use of the pronoun "none" in the table makes that point quite clear. However, a qualification is necessary. I don't see why it would be wrong or inaccurate to say that there are no official language regulator, but there are nevertheless "several generally accepted guidelines" for English spelling and usage, which, as you said, might change from country to country. In fact, within the United States for example, spelling rules as used e.g. by newspapers, publishing houses, government agencies, scientific journals, and schools/universities, are actually quite uniform and very clearly established. Therefore, a "de facto" standard for written American English does exist, even if it is not centrally regulated. The Wikipedia article should acknowledge that fact. 200.177.13.136 00:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC) 17:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- A de facto standard or standards exist for every language that has official status in some country, at least. I believe English is remarkable for how little influence any one authority has. I also disagree about the supposed uniformity of the standard in the United States. I think that compared to countries with regulators, the United States does not seem "uniform" at all. Perhaps English just shouldn't appear in the list if what you're afraid of is that it might seem to be the only language without a regulator. [Note: if you have participated previously in the discussion as an anonymous editor, you should declare that fact.] Joeldl 21:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- Any major newspaper printed anywhere in the US, be it New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Atlanta, Dallas, or Des Moines, is likely to use roughly the same standard spelling. Ditto for any book printed in the US by any major publishing house. That seems to suggest to me that, first, there is a clear consensus on what the "correct" American English spelling is, and, second, standard written English is fairly uniform across the United States. So far, I haven't come across any convincing evidence to the contrary. Language variation of course is wider when we take into account commercial signs, local dialects, personal correspondences, or "new media" like Internet newsgroups or bulletin boards. However, that is also true in countries like France or Spain where the standard written language is indeed centrally regulated by bodies like "l'Académie française" or "La Real Academia Española".
- A de facto standard or standards exist for every language that has official status in some country, at least. I believe English is remarkable for how little influence any one authority has. I also disagree about the supposed uniformity of the standard in the United States. I think that compared to countries with regulators, the United States does not seem "uniform" at all. Perhaps English just shouldn't appear in the list if what you're afraid of is that it might seem to be the only language without a regulator. [Note: if you have participated previously in the discussion as an anonymous editor, you should declare that fact.] Joeldl 21:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- No one is claiming that there is a language regulator for English. The use of the pronoun "none" in the table makes that point quite clear. However, a qualification is necessary. I don't see why it would be wrong or inaccurate to say that there are no official language regulator, but there are nevertheless "several generally accepted guidelines" for English spelling and usage, which, as you said, might change from country to country. In fact, within the United States for example, spelling rules as used e.g. by newspapers, publishing houses, government agencies, scientific journals, and schools/universities, are actually quite uniform and very clearly established. Therefore, a "de facto" standard for written American English does exist, even if it is not centrally regulated. The Wikipedia article should acknowledge that fact. 200.177.13.136 00:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC) 17:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- It is not just "technically correct". It is a difference that has been said to show different attitudes about language between English- and French-speakers, for example. And the list of important sources would be endless. There are many more national standards than Brtitish and American (there are many specifically Canadian style books, for example), and within each country many "influential" style books exist. This situation is not comparable to languages with regulators. Joeldl 16:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I disagree. Although there is no official authority that regulates the English language , there are however several important references and sources, e.g. dictionaries and writing/style manuals, that are authoritative in the sense that they establish guidelines/standards which are followed by government agencies, publishing houses, newspapers, and schools/universities. Although it may be technically correct that there is "no official regulator", that statement might mislead readers into believing that no standard is recognized for written English, when, in reality, at least two standards (British and American) are clearly established. I'd go back to the original wording in the article, i.e. "no official regulator, but accepted guidelines are printed in various dictionaries and reference books around the world." 200.177.48.60 10:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
- One of the defining (and best) things about the English language is that it isn't regulated. I don't think that Oxford or Websters (or any other language authorities) can claim to be regulators of English (even de facto regulators). They simply describe the rules and styles of English at the time of printing Hart's Rules has been printed (40 times) since 1893, the language has changed a great deal since then and so has the book (I don't think anyone will claim that Hart's Rules prompted the changes in the language).Shniken 01:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- The Oxford is considered to be authoritative. That does not mean that it is the only authority. (Personally I believe it is the best one, but that's my choice.) Evertype 21:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- In the United States, there are several dozen style guides. I don't think Oxford can claim to have the most influential one. Ashibaka tock 17:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I guess my point is that, if a "de facto" written standard exists and is widely used by virtually all writers, editors, journalists, educators, and civil servants, then the rules that make up that standard must be recorded/referenced somewhere, e.g. dictionaries and writing/style manuals. Having said that, I do agree with you though that it is not always easy to determine what the ultimate reference for standard English is. That is why I believe the Wikipedia article should avoid mentioning any specific reference (the Oxford English Dictionary or the Merriam-Webster Dictionary for example), stating simply, in a more generic way ,that "there are generally accepted spelling and usage guidelines" which are published in multiple sources across the English-speaking world. 200.177.13.136 00:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC) 00:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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Its really the primary educational system which has created and maintains the standard. By drilling grammer school students with tests and spelling bees, and grading ALL their work partially on 'proper' spelling, they establish a link in everybody's mind between 'correct' spelling and intelligence. This turns everybody into Spelling Cops. The lexicographers, even though they will proclaim that they are discriptive, not prescriptive, will be the final word in any dispute about spelling, effectively quashing any modifications. There simply is no need for an official central authority.JO 753 20:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Webster's Dictionary as standard of American English
Says who? What is a Webster's Dictionary any way? If we mean the Merriam-Webster dictionary, then we should say so. However, it's a standard of American English not the standard. --Richard 19:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. Since Webster's Dictionary refers to a variety of dictionaries from several different publishers, it can't possibly be considered a language regulator. Besides, the preeminent dictionary from the publisher with the greatest claim to the Webster name is known for its permissiveness, not for its regulatory qualities (see Webster's Dictionary#Criticism). --Metropolitan90 07:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Patent nonsense. Given that no one has defended this in the months since the objection, I'm going to remove it. - Ncsaint
[edit] German?
Who regulates the German language?
- I have removed the (untrue) information that the Goethe-Institut is the regulator of German language and replaced it with "recognized Duden standards." See also the German language article. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 20:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Japanese
This list gives "Government of Japan" as the regulator of Japanese. That's a rather broad term. Is there a specific "Department of Language" or something that's in charge of regulating Japanese? Nik42 09:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- You are right, it should be more detailed. Regulating the language is part of activities of the Agency for Cultural Affairs (文化庁 bunkachō) at the Ministry of Education of Japan. To be more precise, it is the National Language Subdivision (国語分科会 kokugo-bunkakai) of the Council for Cultural Affairs (文化審議会 bunka-shingikai) that deals with Japanese language issues since 2000. I suppose the latter is too specific for the list, though. Obakeneko 20:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Fictional languages?
If esperanto and Interlingua are under "Fictional Languages" why Ido isn't ?
- Actually, "Fictional languages" is not the right section title. "Constructed languages" would have been more appropriate. (There's nothing fictional about either Esperanto or Interlingua, and fits Ido as well.) — Itai (talk) 12:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Webster's Dictionary
Since "Webster's Dictionary" is not the name of a single publication, or even of a group of publications from the same publisher, I don't believe it can be considered a recognized standard to the degree needed to warrant listing it on List of language regulators. Note that the Merriam-Webster company, which is the corporate successor to Noah Webster's dictionary business, can't even regulate the use of the name "Webster's" on dictionaries from other publishers. There are dictionaries published under brand names such as Merriam-Webster's, Webster's New World, Random House Webster's, and Webster's II New Riverside, all from different publishers. Then once a particular Webster's is chosen as the recognized standard, you have to ask whether that particular Webster's is prescriptive or descriptive, and I don't know which one or more of them are prescriptive. In short, Webster's Dictionary does not belong on this list. --Metropolitan90 03:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] English
English isn't regulated. Dictionaries record usage. Styles guides are just that. Some organisations use their own house styles. You are free to choose no matter what pedants and language mavens say! 84.135.250.145 08:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. I think the "English" field should just say "none". Joeldl 09:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Constructed languages
Regarding constructed languages, the article currently states, "Constructed languages are by definition their inventors' regulations, so language planning, as known in natural languages, does not exist independent of the language itself." This is untrue. Esperanto, for example, has no central body that decrees what is and isn't good speech. The language develops organically, and the Academy of Esperanto's role (as stated on its website) is merely to acknowledge what is already considered to be good usage by a majority of speakers, and to respond to questions from the public. Why are constructed languages listed separately from the main list? --Kwekubo 13:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] YIVO and Yiddish
does Yiddish have a single standard language? Does YIVO regulate it? Does the Yiddish taught in official schools in Sweden and Russian (and various universities) correspond to YIVO standards? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.167.248.223 (talk) 02:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Portuguese Regulator
The so-called Instituto Internacional da Língua Portuguesa, is not the official regulator of the Portuguese language as claimed in the article ! In fact, I believe most native speakers of Portuguese are not even aware that such Institute exists ! The recognized authority on matters of language in Brazil is the Academia Brasileira de Letras. In Portugal on the other hand, I'm not sure if there is any central language regulator.200.177.5.20 02:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Official spelling in Portugal is regulated by the Academia das Ciências de Lisboa, Secção de Letras. Lisbon's Science Academy and the Brazilian Literary Academy negotiated for example the recent 1990 Luso-Brazilian Orthographic Agreement. 200.177.48.60 10:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
