Talk:List of flagship vehicles by manufacturer

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[edit] Mitsubishi Diamante

The Galant isn't the flagship, this should be changed to Diamante. Also, as per the concern regarding previous / current flagships, maybe make this list 'Current Flagships', and a new page for 'Previous Flagships'. - Gomez 20:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The list if for recent falgships; thus you can put the Diamante in as well below the Galant and state the models years of the Diamante in paratheses. Regards, Signaturebrendel 23:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
The Diamante is the current flagship. By definition, the Galant is not the flagship vehicle. - Gomez 09:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
But production for the Diamante ended for the 2004 model year. The dimante was made from 1997 to 2004, at least in the US. Regards, Signaturebrendel 14:07, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for comments

1. Since the bulk of this article is a list, it should probably be moved to List of flagship vehicles by manufacturer, or something similar.
2. Phrases such as "most prestigous" and "highest ranking [in] the company's line-up", without citing sources or any ranking criteria, seem rather subjective and indistinguishable from original research. CrypticBacon 07:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

good idea to move the articke. The description of a flagship vehicle relies on common knowledge as well as description used for some advertisers to describe their vehicles. Signaturebrendel 17:44, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I concurr. "Flagship vehicles" could even be a disambiguous term. This article should be moved to something more descriptive. inigmatus 21:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The article is simply meant as an addition to the Category to give insights into what a flagship vehicle is and waht not. So, I did some research and looked in publications like forbes, edmunds, nctds as well as manufacturer's sites as to what vehicles are considered flagship. Then I created the list and categorized all vehicles on it. Since it is a list, I think its best to keep it as "List of flagship vehicles by manufacturer." I am however open to new idea. What did you mean by disambigous and more descriptive? Thanks for your input! Signaturebrendel 22:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verification, possible original research

We are going to need sources for the information provided here; as of right now this article is borderline original research. The problem I see is that car manufacturers may differ on their definitions of "flagship vehicles", and, also, a given manufacturer may not have only one vehicle that they consider to be their flagship vehicle. Already a user has changed this list to suite his or her interpretation of which model is that respective manufacturer's flagship model. Please site a source for each entry on the list to comply with Wikipedia's policy on verification. CrypticBacon 07:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty I'll gather the sources I have used an listed them in a new section. Just give me couple of days to do so. I understand your concern. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 07:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I happened upon this new article and added Audi's A8. I also started citing some sources beside each vehicle (using a simple Google search for each car, using obvious references high in each article about "flagships.) That would seem to be the best way to address concerns about original research or simple POV, which I agree, would be kind of pointless in this article if that's all it was. The citations tend to back up critics' views on "flagship" status, though perhaps manufacturers' comments would be best, if they could be found. Nhprman 07:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I am working on getting more refernces as well, but please continue posting any references you find. Again, Thank you. Signaturebrendel 08:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How far back?

Question: How far back did you envision these flagship vehicles going? I see the "?-1981" reference, and the Arnage is not now the flagship, but yes, it was, last year. So will someone determine that the entry for each carmaker should have five or ten vehicles listed, going back to the 1920s? That would be cumbersome. I kind of thought we were sticking to CURRENT flagships, but I'll go with the consensus. User:Nhprman UserLists

Yes, I agree. We should only mention recent flagships. I removed the Continental. I think we should draw the line in 2005. Thank you for contributing. Signaturebrendel 07:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Even if we decide to go current cars only, someone will eventually begin to add information about former flagship cars. What will probably happen is that in the future when the list gets too unwieldy it will start split into a list of lists, e.g. "List of Ford flagship cars by year", etc. I (respectfully) disagree; I think we ought to continue on as it is. CrypticBacon 08:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should have two tables one for current flagships and one for past flagships. Another option would be to continue as now and organize the flagships by manufacturer, just like has been done with Bentley, I added a "rowspan=2" command to include both the Arnage and Azure as Bentley flagships. I prefer the latter since two tables may make the list to long. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 08:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, but if it gets too messy, someone's bound to call for it to be deleted. I think the article certainly has merit, since I could definitely see someone using it to seek information about the 'flagship' of a car manufacturer. Of course, if they find FIVE flagships per car maker, they may be confused. I think the earlier concerns about original research is being addressed well with the source links. (also: I indented your paragraph for reading clarity. Use FOUR colons to respond below this comment.) Nhprman UserLists 08:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
You're right the intention was to give people a quick overview over waht vehicle is the flagship of what brand, that's why I still think the current and the year before should be the only one's mentioned. If someone really wants all the flagship for all manufacturer's listed, another table could be created under the heading "Historic flagship vehicles." I am actually pretty steadfast in my beleive that this table should only include the last and current year. If someone wonder: "What's the Ford Flagship model" they should be able to find the answer quick and simple right here. Signaturebrendel 17:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)\
Perhaps, eventually, instead of "Ford" linking to Ford, it could link to List of Ford flagship vehicles by year, or something of the sort. This of course would be sometime in the future when we have enough data to warrant such a link. CrypticBacon 06:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
This is a good idea, but could mean taking up a dozen or more pages, many of them with one or two entries. How many "flagships" has Ford had, actually? Maybe a short list for each car maker - with dates - here on this page would work. Nhprman UserLists 16:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Usually one marque doesn't have enough flagships in its history to justify a sperate list. I think if we can work out a way to list them all here on this page, that would be prefect. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 17:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
You're right, it seems sloppy to make a seperate page for each manufacturer if there are only going to be up to five (?) per car maker. Perhaps we could split this list up into A-H, I-P, etc., but also have a link for a page that shows only the current flagships, for those interested. CrypticBacon 17:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
That's an excellent idea. This way user will easly find waht they are looking for without the use of many stubs. Signaturebrendel 21:49, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flagship definition

The definition of flagship as "represent[ing] the marque's image as well, usually serving as the representation of the marque's most inconic design and engineering phylosophies" cannot be applied exclusively to luxury vehicles. On VW, for instance, the Phaeton is hardly representative of the image and positioning the brand wants to maintain. The Golf is the real flagship of the company, as it uses a greater variety of VW-developed technology, it is the basis for the company's general design, and also the basis for the VW Group's platform/design/tech distribution policies as a whole. The Phaeton even uses technology that was first tried out on the Golf. For another example, Lincoln: the Town Car cannot possibly the flagship. An antique design, an antique engine, an antique transmission, an antique chassis. The LS, on the other hand, is a much better candidate, it was the first Lincoln to be developed as a Premier Automotive Group common platform, the first Lincoln with VVT and a 5-speed auto, essentially surving as a precursor to the current crop of "MK" cars. Oh, and by the way, MSN is hardly the best qualified to decide what car is "flagship" and what isn't. It seems to me like Gerdbrendel's rationale is that the flagship is simply to be the most expensive sedan in the North American lineup. I mean, the NA-market Honda Accord as flagship? No i-VTEC, no CVT, square design, cheap plastics... Please. --Pc13 21:11, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

This is good food for thought, and illustrates that there needs to be objective criteria for these selections. Perhaps the makers themselves have - somewhere online - self-identified their "flagships"? That would certainly solve the problem (which apparently WILL occur) of having debates over which, exactly, are the flagships. Nhprman UserLists 21:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Of course, I have to add that you're both going to be wrong after 2007 (or perhaps a bit later) when the planned Lincoln MKS becomes their flagship. [1]
Actually esteem has usually the biggest impact. The flaghsip tends to be the vehicles in a manufacturers line-up that enjoys the highest esteem. Often, but not always, the car will be representative of a companies philosophies. Flagships are the car the "best preformance" of a brand. They are wither like the Accord the best selling, like the Pheaton the best the company can produce, or like the Town Car represent the companies image. FYI: I don't think we can add the MKZ until Lincoln confirms its new position within the line-up and the Town Car is without question the flagship. When you drive a Navigator you say "I drive a Navigator," when you drive an LS, you say "I drive an LS" when you drive a Town Car, and I do, you say "I drive a Lincoln," that's all you say. Lincoln is not know for preformance, its the large luxury saloon Lincoln is known for. Denying that the Town Car is the Lincoln flagship is like denying that a BMW 7-Series is German! BTW: The Town Car was in part designed by Jag XJ designers- look at both bashboards, especially the ends, the leather is also the same. Thanks Signaturebrendel 02:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't suggest adding the MKS, since it's still a concept car. But I do suggest you place a "proposed criteria" list here on the Talk page (in a separate header) of what you are considering a "flagship" so it can be discussed and critiqued. Without solid, generally accepted critera for the term (posted at the top of the article) you're risking conflicts, and some busybody WILL delete the article as "subjective." You're right about Lincoln. The brand has lost it's identity. See: [2] Nhprman UserLists 04:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, You're right we need a better criteria. Also Lincoln really has lost its identity. On the one hand they want to keep TC, Luxoyacht buyers like me, on the other hand the need attract the preformance oriented crowd with cars like the LS. Anyways, here are solid guidelines that we should add. Here's my proposal:
  • A flagship car is the most espesive model in the line-up of the most the company's most iconic body style, unless the manufacturer directly states otherwise.
BMW, for example, is known for sedans (the vast majority of BMW vehicles). The 7-Series is BMW's most expensive sedan. Since sedan's are BMW's most iconic body style, and the 7-Series is BMW's most expenive sedan, the 7-Series is the flagship.
anks. Signaturebrendel 05:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I would amend this to read: "A flagship vehicle is defined as the most expensive model in an automobile manufacturer's current line-up, representing the car maker's most iconic body style, unless the manufacturer directly states otherwise." This adds the clarity of "current" to the mix, and also resolves the issue of "expensive, but not iconic," which has been raised. Nhprman UserLists 05:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree! But let me sure I understand you right. The car that is currently the most expensive model of a brand's most inconic body style is the marque's flagship model. So the Lexus LS is the Lexus flagship becuase its currently the most expenisve sedan in the Lexus line-up. Even though the Lexus LX SUV is more expensive it's not the flagship because the most iconic Lexus body style is that of a sedan. If I unerstand this right I'm fully behind your defenition. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 06:56, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Close. It has to have BOTH critereon: 1) Top of the line in terms of cost (or near-top) and 2) Must be the most iconic of the maker's fleet, along with a third, 3) must be in the current line-up, which I suppose could be spread out to say "among currently sold vehicles." Of course maybe we ought to go with Wikipedia's Flagship definition: "The top or main vehicle [currently] manufactured by an automotive marque. These vehicles are usually, but not always, the most expensive, prestigious and largest vehicles in the line-up." I like that. Nhprman UserLists 07:21, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
That's what I meant the three criteria, near top, most iconic, among currently sold. I also think that one doesn't include the other. Here's my example:
The top or main vehicle [currently] manufactured by an automotive marque. These vehicles are usually, but not always, the most expensive, prestigious and largest vehicles in the line-up. These vehicles feature al of the following attributes:
  • Top of the line in terms of cost (or near-top)
  • Must be the most iconic of the maker's fleet
  • must be in the current line-up"
What do you think, thanks. Signaturebrendel 07:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Disagree. smart flagship - fortwo, the smallest and least expensive one. VW flagship - Golf - design and technology template for the brand. Fiat flagship - always the B-segment model, as citycars is what Fiat is best known worldwide for, current case, the Punto. Mitsubishi flagship - Lancer Evo, represents the epitome of Mitsubishi technology derived from motorsports. I didn't start this discussion to reach a settlement on what flagship is. I started it to point out the flaws in the concept. You could determine "flagship" to be the most expensive model. You could. But you could also determine it be the most expensive sedan, because "SUVs ain't proper cars". Or the most technologically advanced model in the lineup. Or the bestseller. Or the oldest nameplate. And then you have another problem, with different range toppers in different countries. Why is the Five Hundred the Ford flagship? Why not the Crown Vic? Or the Australian market Fairmont? Or the Mondeo? Whatever definition you find, you'll also find there are times when the "flagship" is going to be the oldest model in a lineup, and brands will divert marketing resources from them in order to concentrate on new and more profitable models. That's what's currently happening with Lincoln. The Town Car is a holdover from the outdated image Lincoln is trying to shed. And what happens when the range-topper is a lemon and you can't give them away? Case in point: VW Phaeton, Fiat Croma, Opel Signum, Lancia Thesis. --Pc13 09:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the above guideline includes these examples. Smart is best known for two swat minicars; thus the flagship will be the top-of-the-line Smart two seater. Yes, the flagship is often the oldest model, but not always. Before 2002, the Continental had been the oldes model in the Lincoln line-up. The Continental was the Flagship from the 1950s to 1981. Then the Town Car took over as the flagship, with the Continental being "demonted" to becoming the mid-line-up mid-size sedan. BTW: Darryl Hazel, vice president of Marketing for North America said "Lincoln has historically excelled at full-size luxury sedans – it's been our hallmark- this means full-sized sedans are the most iconic body-style. Why, the Ford 500 and not the Crown Vic, because Ford said so. According to the guidelines the Crown Vic would be Ford's flagship, but isn't just because Ford said, the Ford 500 is. A car maker can bystep the above guidelines by just naming one of their vehicles as their flagship. Yes, VW is known for compact cars, the Golf is VW top-of-the-line compact (Is it?), so the Golf would VWs flagship. But VW came along and said the Pheaton is their flagship. Also maybe we should add a column in the table for market (US, EU, Japan) since brands have different flagships in different markets. So, for Ford it would say "US" behind the 500, and "EU" behind the Mondeo. Also, all defenitions have flaws but this one is pretty sound. FYI: Darryl Hazel, vice president of Marketing for North America said "Lincoln has historically excelled at full-size luxury sedans – it's been our hallmark.Here's the revised defenition: A flagship vehicle is defined as the most expensive model in an automobile manufacturer's current line-up, representing the car maker's most iconic body style, unless the manufacturer directly states otherwise. Thse vehicles are usually, but not always, the most expensive, prestigious and largest vehicles in the line-up. These vehicles feature all of the following attributes:

  • Top of the line in terms of cost (or near-top)
  • Must be the most iconic of the maker's fleet
  • must be in the current line-up"

Thanks. Signaturebrendel 17:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Given the final defintion here, the Hyundai line needs work. Equus may be in the KOREAN current line-up, but it's not for the rest of the world. The Hyundai Azera is the current flagship for the rest of the world, is it not? Nhprman UserLists 17:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes in the US and Europe the Azera is the flagship, though the Equus is also sold in other Asian countries. Signaturebrendel 18:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seems to be primarily a marketing term

From Google, the term "flagship vehicle" seems to be primarily a marketing term appearing in car reviews and press releases. The designation is often not unique for a given manufacturer. Trying to make a definitive list of "flagship vehicles" thus seems to be inherently non-NPOV, like a list of "best cars".

Within the auto industry, the key term is "platform", which has a specific meaning. --John Nagle 02:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Not quite, the term flagship does not vary for each manufacturer. Manufacturers determine which vehicle in their line-up is to be their flagship. On the Lincoln web-site for example it states that the Town Car is Lincoln's flagship vehicle. The list is not the same as having a list of best vehicles since no brand says "this is our best model, everything else is inferior." Mercedes-Benz would never openly state that the S-Class is better than the E-Class but they do state that the S-Class is their flagship. Yes, it is a marketing term but so are the names of the cars themselves. Thank you for your input though. Regards, Signaturebrendel 02:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cadillac Escalade

It seems that the Escalade fits the definition of a flagship vehicle better than the DTS

No becuase SUVs are not Cadillac's most iconic body style, sedans are. Cadillac is known for luxury sedans, which befits the DTS. Also, Cadillac and the media have stated the DTS to be the Cadillac flagship. Until now, only Land Rover has a luxury SUV as flagship. Regards, Signaturebrendel 23:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Although I was unaware that Cadillac declared the DTS to be their flagship, the Escalade is much more iconic than the DTS; it has much more public recognition, and even sets the design theme of subsequent Cadillac models.

No it isn't Cadillac is know for sedans not SUVs, Land Rover is know for SUVs not Cadillac. The Escalade may have more recognition, but when you say Cadillac a sedan still comes to mind. Also, Cadillac still sells more sedans than SUVs, maintaining sedans as Cadillac's main body style. This page is not for trend setting vehicles, which the Escalade certainly is, it is for flagships. The most expensive vehicle of a brand's most iconic or most sold body style, unless the manufacturer states otherwise. The DTS is the replacement for the Deville which has been the Caddi flagship for decades. Regards, Signaturebrendel 19:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rubbish!

What is this article? Look at the talk page!? A bunch of editors trying to decide for themselves what a flagship car is without any thought for sources. Is it the VW Phaeton? Or the VW Golf? Let's just make up our own definition and write an article! And we'll fill it with link and half of them wont work, and the other half will just be to pricelists or blogs! And it'll really just be a "list of most expensive cars in manufacturers' U.S. price lists" which is what the artlce should be called. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.185.15.153 (talk) 19:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

This guy is damn right. If not for Easter time, I'd file for AfD immediately. One of the pinnacles of Wikipedia OR, with all due respect to the creators of the article. I really don't think it is salvageable in any form... PrinceGloria (talk) 22:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
File the RfA; I created the article and it was mistake in hindsight; WP's standards were more lax back then and I was brand new to the site - since, however, WP's standards, partially (and ironically) becuase of editors like me, have become more stringent. I have also written GAs since then and wouldn't mind this piece of rubbish deleted. Signaturebrendel 06:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)