Talk:List of Entheogens

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[edit] What should be included?

Shouldn't MDMA/ecstasy be included here? Andre (talk) 01:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion;
Entheogens are the 'teacher plants', MDMA (extasy) isn't an entheogen and should not be listed in this list.
I disagree that MDMA isn't a "Teaching" substance, and it's been used by modern-day medicine-men/shamans in theraputic settings, as well as at modern tribal gatherings such as raves. Shamanchill (talk) 02:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Cannabis (THC) should be included, it has been used in relegious rituals for centuries allready for the reason that it is one of the 'teacher plants' and the most wide spread used entheogen on this planet. Frankly I do not understand why it is not included there. (I would do it myself but don't know how to edit the article without messing the structure up, I don't even try.
Ferre 16:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Weed, Pot, Smoke, Hash ect Should be included.--Liamjosephhalligan 22:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree THC merits inclusion. Andre (talk) 01:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Other substances to look into:

nutmeg, belladonna, brugmansia (and possibly other nightshades), ayahuasca, mandrake (mentioned in Genesis 30:14), henbane, morning glory, opium, acacia, kratom, etc... . If you get right down to it, even alcohol belongs on this list. I will try to compile a better proposal list from Rudgley's Encyclopedia, but also think that a column giving the regional and cultural contexts of each be created, and a differentiation could thus be made between those used in more traditional shamanistic rites versus modern equivalents. There are numerous Polynesian, South/Central American, African entheogens not yet included here, as well. Neolithic bowls depicting datura casings have been found, as have cannabis seeds in pre-historic fire pits - necessary information to include in this listing, I believe. The listing in Legal Drugs should also be expanded, as it misses many of these. Herbal and Fungal Hallucinogens might be a good starting point. Lastly, the listing should probably be alphabetical. Shamanchill (talk) 02:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Added THC/Cannabis

I've added THC/Cannabis to the list, taking elements from other articles (hopefully not doing so out of context), mainly Spiritual use of cannabis. I was a bit shocked to see that it wasn't included, and checked here to make sure there wasn't any previous decision against the matter. Since there was no arguments against it, and if anything seemed to be a loose consensus in favour of the addition, I've gone ahead and done so. - Pacula 18:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with adding it, but it does not talk about effects at all. Todayistheday (talk) 21:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tobacco

Shouldn't tobacco be used in this? Native Americans originally used large amounts of tobacco to produce an tobacco as an entheogenic state —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.115.189 (talk) 21:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Since ingestion of nicotine causes a psychoactive effect (head rush, euphoria) and has traditionally been used in a ritualistic manner, I agree that it should be added, although with the context noted. Shamanchill (talk) 02:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Include the legality of each of the substances?

Seems like a good idea for curious psychonauts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snuggywuggles (talk • contribs) 01:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, although as the schedule of substances banned or monitored varies by region, it would have to be region-specific, and I'm not sure how to format that. Use of the American list of scheduled substances as default might be useful, with disclaimers on those not appearing on the US listing but on others that they legality in other regions may be different.Shamanchill (talk) 02:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Structures

The 2-d structures for most of the phenethylamines are really misleading. I realize they're only meant to show the differences among the group, but the 3-d structures all have the full structure, so why not the 2-d structures? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.129.224.36 (talk) 23:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LSA

Please do not add back ergine (LSA) as the active principle of Ipomoea violacea, Hawaiian baby woodrose, and Rivea corymbosa seed. The pure compound is not hallucinogenic, suggesting an as yet undiscovered hallucinogenic compound in these seeds. Сасусlе 05:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that pure LSA has really been tested enough to necessarily dismiss it as inactive. In TIHKAL, Shulgin mentions only that it was not hallucinogenic at a dose of 2 milligrams. However I read another reference once (which I shall try to locate again) that stated LSA was an active hallucinogen "50x less potent than LSD" which would give an active dose of ~12.5mg, certainly not very potent for a hallucinogenic lysergamide, but still reasonably potent if compared to other tryptamine or phenethylamine hallucinogens. If this is true then LSA could well be the active component of Hawaiian Baby Woodrose etc, as it seems somewhat unlikely to me that the active compound in these reasonably well studied plants is a different molecule that has not yet been discovered. Meodipt 09:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Relative potency does not reflect hallucinogenic quality. I am not aware of ANY human trial with pure ergine or isoergine that gave clear psychedelic effects. The crucial point is not to dismiss LSA as a hallucinogenic compound, it is to demonstrate its activity (see scientific method). You might be interested in reading Mixing the Kykeon (I have actually heard one of its authors stating in a recent talk that they were not able to experience psychedelic effects with ergine, isoergine, or a mixture of both). Сасусlе 20:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC) (from my talk page)

[edit] Original Wasson paper definition

The original paper by Wasson et al reads like this:

We ... propose a new term that would be appropriate for describing states of shamanic and ecstatic possession induced by the ingestion of mind-altering drugs. In Greek, the word entheos means literally 'god (theos) within' and was used to describe the condition that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has entered one's body. It was applied to prophetic seizures, erotic passion and artistic creation, as well as to those religious rites in which mystical states were experienced through the ingestion of substances that were transubstantial with the deity. In combination with the Greek root gen-, which denotes the action of 'becomming', this term results in the word we are proposing: entheogen. ... In a strict sense, only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated 'entheogens', but in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations in consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens"

I think that this list should take the "looser sense" of the definition to include modern spiritual aids such as chemical DMT, Ketamine, LSD and others, as "ritually ingested" by Dr. John C. Lilly, Dr. Timothy Leary, Marsha Moore, and others. This also relates to my comments on broadening the neurological definition quoted from Shulgin above. I've included this note on the root Entheogens page, and I don't think that chemical substances should be excluded, just as the coiners of this term didn't. I also recommend using "The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Substances" by Richard Rudgley to help create a more comprehensive listing. I've got a copy and will make proposals over time.Shamanchill (talk) 02:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)