Talk:Limnor

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[edit] Cleanup tag

If you read this article, and you know nothing about Limnor, you get the feeling that it's just someone who put up the advertising spiel from his pet project that "Will Revolutionise programming" [TM]. It needs to be re-written as an encyclopedia article. It should explain where the project came from, who uses the language (if anyone!) and how it differs from the other Final Ultimate Computer User Programming Solutions for non-programmers. --Slashme 13:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I found the exact text of the article on the Limnor website. It seems to have been cut and pasted with no thought to what Wikipedia is about, probably to improve search stats. I have now distilled what little neutral content was in the blurb down to a more appropriate stub. The ad claims that it is the first generic codeless programming language in the world! That seems to be crap to me, after checking out visual programming language, but if anyone here knows different, please let us know. --Slashme 07:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Programming System and Programming Language

It says the "generic-purpose codeless programming system", not "programming language". I think they are different. (unsigned comment from 131.107.0.106)

It seems to me that the difference is minor: Any codeless programming language must perforce be a "system" because it would need a dedicated editor at the very least. --Slashme 06:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed explanation of visual programming language

I removed a long explanation of why visual programming languages are a Good Thing. Any such discussion should be taken up on the Visual programming language page, which is already linked to in this article. --Slashme (talk) 05:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unfair actions taken

The actions of Slashme appear to be oddly bias and inapproriate. The 1st change made by Slashme was on an explanation on how the creation of Limnor came about. It was specific to Limnor and not visual programming languages in general as was the claim by Slashme.

The next action taken by Slashme was to remove explanations as to what Limnor could be used for and programming features of the language. What Slashme has done is remove information that would allow a person using Wiki to understand what Limnor is. For example look at other Wiki entries for languages like AutoIt, Euphoria, AutoHotkey, eC (Ecere C) , Lava, etc... The actions of Slashme seem to be very bias and very specific against Limnor. ESOK (talk) 07:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi ESOK,
Here is a copy of the comment that I left on your talk page:

I removed the list of Limnor capabilities that you put up, because it looks like a simple marketing blurb. It would be great if you could rewrite that info in a more encyclopedic style. But don't go saying that you can write databases, business management systems and CD-ROM titles in Limnor: Any such list will never be exhaustive, and you can do those things with pretty much any computer programming system. It's like saying "You can cut meat, vegetables and fingers with a katana" on the katana page.

To say that I'm not doing it to other computer language pages and therefore have a bias against Limnor doesn't really make sense: I don't have time to edit all computer language articles. Maybe I'll get around to them sometime. I have no interest (in the sense of commercial or vested interest) in any computer language systems, which is another reason to doubt that I am biased in this instance. I just don't want Wikipedia to look like a marketing brochure. To see similar actions by me, go and have a look at one of my edits to the Bang and Olufsen page back in Sept. 2006, and also note that the latest edit (as of today) was still to remove advertising-type language.
I've had another shot at distilling your brochure into usable text. Let me know what you think. By the way, do you have a vested interest in Limnor, or are you just a normal user? All your edits to date seem to be about Limnor. --Slashme (talk) 08:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't see a single thing wrong with Slashme's edits. The old article content had an inappropriate tone for Wikipedia; one version was little more than an advert, and another was an essay which was really only tangentially related to the article's purported subject. There may be material from the article's history which may be salvaged, but it must be incorporated into the article in a way which follows Wikipedia's Manual of Style. If readers need further context to understand the concept, appropriate terms should be wikilinked to their own articles. Chris Cunningham (talk) 10:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to make it clear that I have no vested interest or profit motives involving Limnor or it's company, in response to the comment by Slashme. I do have research interest in visual programming languages in general (like Tersus for example) and how they compare to traditional programming languages. I'm a user. I would move on, but I'm finding the editing here incredible and the lack of info. clarifying what Limnor is disappointing. Furthermore the situation with the sad wiki entry has existed since 2005, and I'm just trying to make it more appropriate. However, I don't think Slashme has clearly responded to the focus on removing information clarifying what Limnor is (going back to years ago) and the appearance of bias. Remember this lack of info. and slashing of information on the language existed for years.
I also want to make it clear that I don't object to all edits. I agree that it is not entirely necessarily to show what kind of applications Limnor can make, but only marginally so. This is because Limnor is a visual programming language, so many would question what it is capable of in comparison to a traditional programming language. This should be kept in mind.
I disagree with removing the bullet format. It appears odd to edit and remove this style, and bring into question what is the intent other than what is stated.
The point of using bullets is to allow people at a glance to clearly see what the programming language is capable of, as oppose to haphazardly bury information into a paragraph or force people to visually dig for it. It is why the bullet style was used. Furthermore, other wiki entries have used the bullet style. What purpose does it serve to remove the bullet format, even if you object to content? Editing the language of a specific bullet, would shed more light on the reason why, than compressing all the contents and changing the format.
ESOK (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, I can see the sense in using bullets here. However, when you do use bullets, please read each one to make sure that it continues the sentence at the top of the list.
I removed:
  • The item that says that you can use shortcut keys in Limnor (not exactly uncommon!)
  • The description of what you can do to the databases using ODBC (you can do pretty much anything to a database with ODBC, as I understand?).
I also split the list into two sections, one for fundamental programming concepts such as recursion and loops (note: two separate concepts here!) and one for general language features such as provision of GUI elements. I hope this brings us a bit closer to consensus? --Slashme (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Macros

What exactly do macros do in Limnor? If it's a visual programming language, what do the macros operate on? --Slashme (talk) 06:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


These questions (on macro and automation) and your practice of removing important information is illustrative of the problem.

You are removing information about a programming language that you know nothing about, then turn around and question why something is or is not present or relevant. I find what your doing both perplexing and hilarious at the same time.

It is important to understand that not all visual programming languages are alike. Something realized by studying them. There are major differences between say Tersus ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tersus and Java based), Synopsis ( http://www.codemorphis.com/ no Wiki entry, yet...), and Limnor (.NET based). These differences can be like comparing Visual Basic to C++ to Python. Thus arbitrarily slashing information about them will make it hard to understand key differences between the visual programming languages.

I will answer both your macro and automation questions. Limnor has a macro-recorder, this allows you to record mouse-click and keys. This then can be played back. This can aid in the creation of certain type of limnor programs. Limnor also contains a WindowManager "Performer", this allows you to send mouse clicks, keys, and commands to 3rd party windows.

Limnor's Macro and Automation abilities put it in the same league as say WinBatch ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winbatch , notice the page format as well), AutoIt, and AutoHotkey, except Limnor is .NET based and this is an additional ability of the language versus it being the primary reason of the programming language. However, it is the only .NET based macro/automation program that I know of.

I disagree with you removing information on hot keys as I thought it was relevant. However, I do think this functionality could be placed on the same line as Automation, so that it would be Macro, Automation, and hot keys. Limnor's ability with databases, extending beyond just being able to connect to them by OLE and ODBC, so I was trying to illustrate this functionality which may not be found in other visual programming languages.

However, the last changes made by another user in terms of looks, was a visual improvement.

ESOK (talk) 03:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Automation

What type of automation is meant here? --Slashme (talk) 06:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I do understand that you may think it is general, but the definition given by Wiki covers computer automation as well and was referenced as well by other programming/scripting languages. ESOK (talk) 03:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)