Talk:Leo Prime

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus for either title. Duja► 08:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

What the hell. His name is LioConvoy, damnit. Leo Prime is an LoC homage to him.

When the frigging IDW profile book comes out, and his name is still LioConvoy, I'm changing it back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.158.19.72 (talk • contribs) 18:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

Since Lio Convoy is a virtual unknown in Western/European Markets the idea that LoC is an simple homage to him is rather laughable. In any case while Autobot/Maximal leaders are referred to as “Convoy” in Japan, the title is not correct in Western/European Markets. Now since he is a technically a Maximal the title “Primal” might have been more correct, perhaps Rodimus Primal should have been his name. But in any case the character is now apparently considered to be all Leo Prime. --The Matrix Prime 18:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

No. He was actually released by Hasbro through their collectors' website as-- LioConvoy. [1] So that's his name. Evan1975 05:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The figure was released as its Japanese counterpart because it did not have a North American one as of yet. Hence why the figure Shadow Panther was eventually released as Tripredacus Agent, because he had a North American counterpart. Also, we can easily accept his name being Leo Prime because he bares a Matrix of Leadership, like Optimus and Rodimus before him. That is also why Primal would have been an inappropriate name, because Optimus Primal did not have a Matrix (although he did in the Japanese continuity, hence his name being Convoy the Japanese equivalent to Prime). We can only assume that as more comics come out that we will soon be seeing more of the Japanese characters become mainstream. That being said, we have to be ready for the characters to receive North American names, such as Big Convoy and possibly even Galvatron. --TriPredRavage 13:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually its not so easy to accept him as a Prime because as you said the Japanese series incorrectly has Optimus Primal possessing the Matrix. If Primal doesn't really have it then it’s not hard to assume the Leo might not actually have it either then. Like I said it’s open to debate on whether Leo really is a Prime or should’ve been a Primal. But nevertheless, his western name is now Leo Prime, for good or ill. --The Matrix Prime 22:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not incorrectly, it's just a different continuity. It's just how the Japanese decided to translate the series. Leo having the Matrix is an unavoidable condition, however, considering that it is such a major plot device during BWII and BWNeo. I know that they removed the Matrix from Ultra Magnus in RID, but his Matrix was never actually shown (despite it being the reason the Autobot brothers get the power up), unlike Lio Convoy's and Big Convoy's. They openly expose their Matrixes, making them unavoidably known. Either way though, whether it should have been "Primal" or if it shouldn't, it doesn't really matter now, does it?--TriPredRavage 23:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is a different continuity now being brought into another continuity, that's why it’s debatable. I’m not saying one version is better then the other, I’m saying there’s room to argue, now aren’t I? The fact that he should be or shouldn’t be a Prime is moot, but still debatable. I hope that makes it clearer for you. --The Matrix Prime 18:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Official material refers to him as Lio Convoy, see the IDW BW comics. Leo Prime was nothing more than a homage.24.127.3.102

Some of the Ascension page(s) are now up for viewing and they clearly state Leo Convoy not Leo Prime. http://media.comics.ign.com/media/956/956780/imgs_1.html 24.127.3.102

• I wrote to Simon Furman aksing him why the name was selected to be Lio Convoy over Leo Prime and he explained that it was more simple to use the original release names over any changes that had come over the years [2]. Considering that comicbook continuity always tends to vary from other continuities (whether it be Marvel, DC, IDW, etc...), it means that the name very well could still be Leo Prime in other media. And on top of that, the comics have not always been capable of officially confirming anything. In the original TF comics Frenzy was Blue and Rumble was red, as were the figures; however, in the show and all comics after the original series, Rumble has been blue and Frenzy has been red. In such cases I would have to believe that the figure must take priority over the comic considering Furman explained himself they didn't take such into account.--TriPredRavage 12:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

A toy with no bio does not take precedence over the fiction. This page chronicles the fiction of the character, it just mentions the toys not chronicles. The fiction takes precedence. 24.127.3.102

OK, as the recent comics reinforce, so there's more than enough evidence that the character is named Lio Convoy after all. Does someone else have the guts to move it back, or should I? Evan1975 01:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Mover it back Evan1975, it never should have been moved in the first place there was never any evidence to support the move to Leo Prime in the first place. 24.127.3.102

No, a Redirect in Lio Convoy is appropriate. A line on this page should say he's known as both. user_talk:mathewignash —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 12:32:22, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

• Or we should swap the Leo Primes with Lio Convoys, and the Lio Convoys with Leo Primes, considering that as of now, Leo Prime is the more common name on the page. So one of the first lines would say something like "Lio Convoy (known as Leo Prime in America)" or something.--TriPredRavage 13:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Or we could just change the part in the IDW production to explain that in The Ascending he is called Lio Convoy instead of the western name Leo Prime, rather than it just mention it in the solicitation. Heck we could even use Furman's explanation that he gave me on his blog as to why. It pretty much explains it as it is.--TriPredRavage 13:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be moved to LioConvoy and all Leo Primes need to be replaced with LioConvoy. Anything else is contradicts the purpose of this page, the chronicling of the White Lion Transformer's fiction. He is also not known as both, he is known as LioConvoy with a homage toy name Leo Prime, nothing exists to prove that Leo Prime is LioConvoy other than a tiny Transformer that is a white lion with a first name that sounds similar to Lio. 24.127.3.102

• And that Convoy is the Japanese equivalent to Prime.--TriPredRavage 02:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• • It may be equivalent but that doesn't mean his name is Leo Prime or Lio Prime or anything Prime. His name is LioConvoy and nothing else there is absolutely nothing that backs the idea that LioConvoy is named Leo Prime in America. Official BW comics proves so. 24.127.3.102

• • • Yeah, but how many official comics prove or disprove different things? Razorbeast and Optimus Primal both first appeared in the mini-comic that came in the Optimus Primal/Megatron 2-pack. Does that mean that officially Optimus Primal is a bat? Does that make Razorbeast's appearance official? The comic was an official comic, but I don't think the events of it are recollected or mentioned anywhere and most fans just throw it aside, despite being officially made by Hasbro. In the Botcon Wreckers comics, Sonar is a girl, in the IDW comics and the figure, Sonar is a boy. All of the media are official, but they contradict one another. According to Optimus Minor's bio on his toy, he is a clone of Optimus Primal, in the comics he is just from a Stasis Pod; however, both media are official. There is no reason that this should be any different. They are just different official media.--TriPredRavage 17:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• • • • That minicomic was later overwritten, while official it is no longer a part of the continuity. Wreckers to has been written out of continuity. Optimus Minor's status as a clone yet again was written out of continuity. Your arguments are completely without merit. Until official fiction writes LioConvoy as Leo Prime nothing exists to prove that LioConvoy is Leo Prime. Official fiction establishes that in the continuity his name is LioConvoy. 24.127.3.102
        • And your argument is flawed. If such can be “out written” then what are we even arguing about? You say that due to it being “out written” then it is “no longer part of the continuity.” You are wrong. It is not that it is “no longer part of the continuity,” it is that it is a different continuity all together. If an official document thereby falsifies and makes unofficial another document, then ultimately no document is official fore the two cancel one another. If that were the case then the white lion Transformer would thereby have no name considering that both are officially recognized by Hasbro. And beside that, Simon Furman explained the reasoning behind calling him Lio Convoy, he did not deny that the character is now recognized as Leo Prime, nor did he state that it is not Leo Prime now. Furman explained that the decision was made to use all characters under names as they originally appeared, merely disregarding any changes, not denying them.--TriPredRavage 20:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

+ :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. + + The result of the proposal was no consensus. --TriPredRavage 13:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

His name has never been Leo Prime. Some stupid little insignicant toy with nothing on it or on the internet to prove his existance as the same character as LioConvoy. However official and cannon products prove his name is indeed LioConvoy. --The Virginian 11:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Here are the facts. We know that in some fictions he is referred to as Lio Convoy. We also know that the figures that appear in the Classics line are supposed to be the original characters that their names represent. This being said, who was the original Leo Prime? We know that on the bio on the back of the figure that Leo Prime is a Supreme Commander, just like Lio Convoy before him. That being said, does the Legends of Cybertron Bumblebee look just like the original Bumblebee? No. Quite frankly, none of the figures look exactly like the originals, so any argument that says they are simply homage is ridiculous. As I’ve said before, official cannon changes all the time, but it doesn’t make one or the other any less true. The character can be both names. The page can list both names, similar to the Gigatron/Overlord page.--TriPredRavage 05:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The fact is every fiction lists him as LioConvoy, not a single fiction lists him as Leo Prime. Fact is that Hasbro America has released him as LioConvoy before. The only instance of a Leo Prime is a toy made in homage which only has a bio stating he is Supreme Commander from Cybertron, nothing states he is actually LioConvoy. Also you should sign your entry properly, it's two dashes then four tildes not two tildes then four dashes. --The Virginian 23:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Pardon me for being human and making a mistake once and a while. Also, you should try to argue points that haven’t been brought up before. That aside, you still don’t have the right to change the page when no consensus has been achieved.--TriPredRavage 00:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Why should I argue points that haven't been argued before when the ones that have been argued before are the only ones needed to prove you wrong on every aspect from the top to the bottom. Besides it's not like you are coming up with any new arguments to support your ludicrous assertion that the Leo Prime toy is in fact LioConvoy and that should overwrite any fictional accounts which the page documents. Try taking your own advice before doling it out to others. The consensus is only needed to move the page, it isn't need to change the wording. As for pardoning you, no. A simple task that can be done with the click of a button and you screw it up. --The Virginian 00:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
        • You really need to calm down. It’s just a Wikipedia page. The reason why I do not need to come up with new arguments is simply because I am looking to keep the page the same, while you want the change. That means you need to display some sort of reason to change it that is indisputable, and thus, I do not need my own advice. As for your pardon, I wasn’t really asking, nor do I truly care for it. A mistake is a mistake, and you make them too, so chill. So forgive me, or not, if I typed my comment in Word and copied and pasted it into Wikipedia and made a small error in signing.--TriPredRavage 01:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
          • You haven't seen me in a state of uncalm. You do need to come up with new arguments if your are telling other people to do so. Hasbro has consistently released materials that prove his name is LioConvoy. That is indisputable. There is nothing you can say that will erase that fact. You are completely wrong just like this article's name. --The Virginian 02:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)8
            • Okay, the only situation in which I would need to come up with a new argument is when some one makes one that challenges what we’ve already said, in which you still haven't done. Either way, you and I debating upon being calm or not calm is quite off topic. However, arguing points that have already been made is quite tiresome and redundant and get’s us nowhere when they have already been covered.--TriPredRavage 05:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
              • That isn't the only situation. Anytime you debate and you tell others to come up with something new, you to have to do same. Those who support the move to LioConvoy have no need to come up with something new, they have everything on their side backing them up and it is indisputable. You have nothing but a nothing toy with a nothing bio. --The Virginian 12:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
                • Okay, let me get this straight: Takara releases the toy in Japan as "Lio Convoy". Takara have him show up in the Beast Wars II cartoon, referred to as "Lio Convoy". Hasbro later officially import the toy and sell it as "Lio Convoy". Many years later, Hasbro release an homage toy with no bio named "Leo Prime". Then IDW release a Beast Wars comic with the character being named "Lio Convoy" again. In other words, when Hasbro imported the original toy, they used the Japanese name, but later they released an homage toy using a new name, so this means the homage toy's name takes precedence over the original toy's? And the only Western fiction he appeared in so far also uses the Japanese name, but that doesn't count either because ZOMG there's an obscure US toy that has a different name? Is this about correct? ERM. To the above, I resent the notion of using personal attacks to make a point, no matter which side it is in favor of.--80.141.70.136 12:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
                  • TriPredRavage you want some new arguments, here is one. Wiki rules that the most common name should be used, so if that is the case his page has to be labeled Lio Convoy. Two animated shows used Lio Convoy, numerous toys mostly Japanese and one American used the name Lio Convoy, most recently comics used the name Lio Convoy. As 80.141.70.136 put it one obscure toy used Leo Prime. Having this page labeled Leo Prime is violation of Wiki Rules. --The Virginian 13:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Okay, please, try to understand what I am saying here about the argument thing, because you actually just said the same thing. I do need to come up with something new when some one else comes up with something new, that is a given; however, if no one ever came up with something new, there wouldn't have been a reason to come up with something, that's all I am saying. And you pretty much said it as well, unless I misinterpreted your message. Now, you say that because the name Lio Convoy is the most used name, it takes precedence, correct? You claim that 2 animated series, Japanese figures and an American figure use the name. First of all, the figure wasn’t American, it was an import, and it was recognized as an import, so to call it an American figure is incorrect. Otherwise, you are right, the name Lio Convoy does appear more times than Leo Prime, after all it has been around longer as well. However, if you want to use the name that appears most, then pretty much every TF page on Wikipedia needs to be changed to the Japanese counterpart. Do we change Optimus Primal? He appears in 5 different Japanese series under the name Convoy/Beast Convoy, and also appears in their comics under that name. He also has many more repaints in Japan of the figures representing the same character, so he has more figures than we do in the English speaking countries. If you think that that Wikipedia rule is enough to merit the change, that’s great, but then we will have to move all of the other pages as well to coincide with this rule. Please understand as well that I do recognize the character as Lio Convoy, as I am pretty sure that everybody does; however, I know that I am not the only one that will take an English name over a Japanese name. I also recognize Dai Atlas as King Atlas, but I can not prove that they are the same character when he received no fiction and no bio to relate the characters. The problem is there are too many grey areas. What is homage, what isn’t homage; it leaves a lot to argue. Now, that being said, I am not going to go and argue that Nemesis Prime and Big Convoy are the same character, because they aren’t (unless some fiction decides to depict them as such), despite that they use the same mold. So, please know that I at least recognize when there is no leg to stand on. Personally, if we set the page up reminiscent of the Gigatron/Overlord page, I wouldn’t have a problem with it, and would actually be quite pleased.--TriPredRavage 14:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Also in the case of "Leo Prime", his casemate Fireflight was originally intended to be named "Powerglide", but Hasbro couldn't get the trademark. Does that make him Fireflight or Powerglide now? Same about Alternators Windcharger. Is he Windcharger or Overdrive, who he was designed as and released as in Japan? Binaltech Overdrive has a story, Alternators Windcharger has not. So who is he? I don't have an easy answer to that one. Sometimes toy names can be real messy. There are three different Targemaster Nebulans who were named "Nightstick" at one point or another. Two of them are even the same mold, but came with different toys (Cyclonus in 1987, Ricochet in 2004) that belonged to opposite factions. Are they the same character or not?--80.141.70.136 18:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Exactly. It’s easy for us to just accept that one thing is right, but once something new comes along that contradicts that, people get all up in arms, and rightfully so. Menasor is another. He is designed to resemble Motor Master, but they didn’t have the rights to the name. While I’m not exactly sure which point you are arguing, 80.141.70.136, I do appreciate you at least seeing where I am coming from on this. It get’s sticky when we don’t have a lot of information. Like I was saying about King/Dai Atlas before, we do know that King was supposed to have a role in the Universe comics that was supposedly going to relate him to Dai, but that never came about. Here’s another; the character Tripredacus Agent. Everybody and their mothers know that he is intended to be Ravage, as even the comic later declared, but even before then everybody jumped on it and called him Ravage. However, we never had any official documentation that he was. We did the same thing with Shadow Panther, if I remember correctly, but I also believe that later he was imported under the name of Tripredacus Agent as Hasbro’s attempt to connect the two figures. Either way, I feel like this is the same. We have the two names, and we have the two sides, now it’s just a matter of what fiction people decide to follow. Deathsaurus/Deszaras is another one. I just think that if we can achieve some sort of balance to the page, recognizing both sides of the argument that we won’t be killing each other over, then we will be fine. Now it’s just a matter of finding that balance. --TriPredRavage 19:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Nope, actually Hasbro imported Shadow Panther in 2000, originally offered him as "Shadow Panther" (because they couldn't use the name "Ravage" at that time), then found out they couldn't use THAT name either, thus renamed him into "Tripredacus Agent" in 2000, and then later used the same name for the Wal*Mart exclusive TM2 Tigatron redeco in 2001.--80.141.70.136 20:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
        • Ah, thank you. I knew that there was more to the Shadow Panther/Tripredacus Agent story than I could specifically recall.--TriPredRavage 20:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
          • Er, make that "Hasbro imported Shadow Panther in 1999", not "2000".--80.141.70.136 20:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

TriPredRavage's example of the Overlord/Gigatron, where the article is titled after the original character and then later mentions a tiny insignificant toy calls him Gigatron, I propose we follow precedence and do exactly the same thing on this article.--The Virginian 11:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• I think maybe we could set the page up the same way we have it on all the other characters from Beast Wars II. In their cases, we list the English character, and then list the events of the Japanese character beneath them. I still think Leo Prime takes precedence because of what Simon Furman said[3]. Notice the three people that are listed, none of them are Hasbro officials. Ben Yee is just a consultant, so that doesn’t mean that Hasbro didn’t change the name. As far as using the original name in the comics, all the comics use the original name. Hot Rod, Jazz, Shockwave, the comics have used all of those names regardless of if they have the trademark or not. Yes, they have the Shockwave name now, but they didn’t back when Dreamwave was publishing. That being said, I think that because Leo Prime is the first true, non-import, North American figure release, I think it’s the name it should use.--TriPredRavage 15:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • If that is the stance you want to take I will have to go to the Overlord page and to the request move page and request that Overlord be moved to Gigatron. It's the same thing as Leo Prime. --The Virginian 18:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)