Talk:Lemba

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[edit] Tidying up

This page should be tidied up to resemble articles on other groups like the Beta Israel or the Abayudaya. Granted this group has genetic links with most of the world's Jewery however they also have genetic relations to their African neighbours, thus are a distinct ethnic group and this page deserves to classify them as such. Why is the Judaism tag on the right hand side when this group is not considered to be religiously Jewish? Also what languages do they speak? I'd imagine something like Shona, Ndebele or Venda. Have any of them learned Hebrew? Also this article contains nothing about countries with present populations, or about the current status of the group. I know I have raised of issues but I think this article could benefit from this upgrade.

  • I agree to some extent. Some simularities (whether religious or genetic) do not perse point out a common historic ancestor or historic religious ties. Simularities can be found between many religions and genetic codes it does not mean they are linked in any way. Is there any historic (archeological) prove of a link between the Jews and the Lemba? If not, the whole thesis of Judaism and the Lemba should be dropped. - Dykstra, 11:17, 28 December 2006 (CET)
    • I disagree. How could genetic markers such as the Cohanim marker, not point out Historical ties? The fact that a people found in Sub-saharan Africa share a genetic marker that is most commonly found in non-Arab semites not indicate Historical ties? Also, how are the Abayudaya a distinct ethnic group from their neighbours? They aren't, they are simply Jews by choice. By Historical I think you mean an archeological link, and as of yet there is none as far as I'm aware. However I don't know how many settlements or villages they built have lasted very long anyway. Also the cultural ties plus the genetic marker cannot be ignored. Olockers 13:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Judaism tag

I removed the Judaism tag on the right hand side, given that they Lemba aren't religiously or officially Jewish(yet) and thus it seems innapropriate to keep it. However it would be more appropriate to add a tag for an ethnic group, which is what the Lemba seem to be to me. Furthermore, there seems to be few hard statistics about the group. Olockers 13:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

I am wondering if this statement should be taken out.

In Vodun (Voodoo), Lemba is a loa worshipped in Brazil and Haiti.

This statement has nothing to do with the body of the article about the Lemba. Any thoughts?--EhavEliyahu 16:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

  • It is common for an article on one topic to mention any other topics that sharde the same name. However, this content can be moved to a disambiguation page. — Reinyday, 01:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • To some extent it is true that: "It is common for an article on one topic to mention any other topics that share the same name.". However there is no relation at all between Lemba in Zimbabwe and Lemba in Vodun (Voodoo). So I agree that the statement should be taken out. One cannot relate any lingual simularity; first of all this would suggest a relationship, secondly it does not add any information and thirdly it makes the article less synoptic. - Dykstra, 11:17, 28 December 2006 (CET)

[edit] exact number

Maybe a figure should be given as to the exact number of Lemba. Also whether or not many converted to Christianity following the arrivial of Baptist Missionaries in the 19th Century.

[edit] Country

What country is their synagogue in? — Reinyday, 00:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Must Lemba convert when they enter Israel?

Curious to this, as ethiopian jews had to.72.70.69.211 18:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Lemba would have to convert for several reasons
1) The Lemba were not initially practicing a recognizable form of Judaism. I.e. unlike the Ethiopian Jews they did not have the Bible in a Semitc language.
2) Unlike the Ethiopian Jews, many of the active members of the Lemba did not have a history of practicing Judaism. This does not mean that they do not have Israelite heritage, it simply means they were not living as a Jewish or Israelite community completely governed by the Torah. Essentially, as they state about themselves MOST of the Torah they were not able to keep for a number of reasons.
4) The rulings about the Ethiopian Jewish community came after review of Rabbis who came accross them going back to the 1400's. These Rabbis stated that the Ethiopian Jews were Jews, lived by Torah, but they had been disconnected from the sages who knew the Oral Torah. Thus in some areas they had a similar Orah Torah to other Jewish communities, but in other areas they did not.
3) The time lapse of their practice as a Torah based community is to far and between.
Essentially, the Ethiopian Jews and the Lemba can't be compared because their situations are vastly different. The Lemba leaders have acknowledged that it would be logical for them to convert. Because they recognize that their ancestors fell off the path hundreds of years ago. The DNA testing confirmed who their ancestors were, but it does not give them an indentity that they were lost from. I hope that helps.--EhavEliyahu 03:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
It may be useful to keep in mind here, regarding the initial inquiry, that while Jewishness is not specifically a religious affiliation, as an ethnic identity it cannot survive long without Judaism. It is only the Nazis who believe/d there to be an identifiable genetic component to Jewish identity. Tomertalk 04:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

intresting point, so why would they have to convert? who is a Jew clearly accomodates them.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 10:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Not in any way I can see... Tomertalk 23:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, Yehudim; Yiddish: ייִדן, Yidn)[3] are members of the Jewish people, an ethnic group originating in the Israelites of the ancient Middle East. Does this def not fit them? genetically related to the house of Israel--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It says "originating in", not "comprising all the descendants of". According to the interpretation that all descendants of the ancient Israelites are Jews, Jews today would comprise several hundred million people. Quite simply, that is not the case. The Lemba may share common ancestry, but they are long-separated from those Israelites who are known today as Jews, culturally and religiously. For the past several thousand years, there has been a way for non-Jews to become Jewish, and for those whose Jewishness is in doubt, this process is little different. (Really, I think the only difference is that someone who is pretty sure they're already Jewish but wants to remove all doubt, does not require being discouraged three times (since discouraging someone who is Jewish from keeping Torah is a greater chillul Hashem)...) Tomertalk 00:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I understand the above, and it makes sense. can someone then stop being Jewish by virtue of neglect. But I guess not since they were born into a community regardless of if they embrace it or not. unfair if they dont want it.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 00:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
A person could theoretically stop being Jewish by neglect, but in practice, they're still regarded as Jewish according to halakhah. What occurs more commonly is that their grandchildren will be only vaguely aware that their grandparents were Jewish, and their great-grandchildren will have no idea at all. Tomertalk 00:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The main reason that the Lemba, and other like them would not be considered legally Jewish is because of the following reasons. (This would only apply if the Lemba desire to rejoin the Jewish fold.)

1) If the Lemba descended from Yemenite Jews who made their way to East Africa, and said Yemenite Jews assimilated or stop practicing Judaism according to Yemenite Jewish custom.
2) If said Yemenite Jews mixed in with the local East African populations without a conversion process for the non-Jews to become legally Jewish.
3) If said Yemenite Jews lost contact with fellow Jews in Yemen, North Africa, and the Middle East. (This in itself would most likely cause them to assimilate more readily.)

If all of these events take place, as they are claimed to have happened in the case of the Lemba several hundred years ago, it means is the following.

1) The Lemba have not practiced Judaism as a whole, which in term caused their culture to no longer be Jewish. This would have affected their marriages, divorces, and Biblical requirements that keep someone within the Jewish fold.
2) The Lemba no longer have a community who has had contact with them until present times. This means that a conversion would be necessary in order for them to be rejoined to the Jewish populations who never assimilated.
3) If a number of the Lemba have Kohan ancestry, the purity of that ancestry is now invariable by either records or witnesses. Kohanim in ancient Israel were to have clear ancestry either through documentation or witnesses.

Other Jewish communities maintined the following things that kept them legally Jewish.

1) In the lands where they were dispersed they were able to maintain the Torah in Hebrew.
2) They were able to maintain a dominate historically connected Jewish structure.
3) They were able to maintain contact with nearby Jewish centers of high scholastic learning. I.e. The Land of Israel, Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc.
4) If they did convert to other religions (due to duress) they were still known by a nearby Jewish community. Many of these cases they would still marry only within the Jewish community. I.e. (other Jews who had been forced to convert) When the duress was over they returned to Judaism, and maintained their own community.--EhavEliyahu 15:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lemba Jewish Heritage

This section really needs a clean up by those with the knowledge. Particularly sentences like "One of them wants to start a Kibbutz".

[edit] History, religion and genetics

The Lemba case has raised some very interesting issues, e.g. about the use of history and genetics to support (or question) claims to religious affiliation, and this article should be developed to reflect this. As a quick google will show, this case is being debated by specialists in different fields. This is not reflected in the article as currently written. It is also thin on the basic ethnographic etc. background to the Lemba. I can see a number of relevant papers in the older academic literature (before the recent genetic research), including analysis of attempts to "reconvert" Lemba in Zimbabwe to Islam! Zahir Mgeni 20:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Foolish criticism

Why is there no mention of Rabbinic scholarly views on this subject? Most rabbinic scholars would consider the scholars quoted in this article to be complete idiots as the Rabbi Ishmael in the mishnah is recorded to say the people of Israel (wording used specificity refers to all of Israel and not just Judah) are not white or black but rather like an olive. He isn't the only source for this. But this is something they learned at 10 years of age. If the Lemba are indeed Jewish their claim of superiority is no greater than white Jews. The claim of white Jews is greater because we know why they are white (intermarriage with the Khazars and other converts). Likewise we know why the Ethiopian Beta Israel are black.

I am rather new to this subject but when do they claim to of left Sena ("Yemen")? 124.170.192.23 21:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The wikipedia languages this article can be found show the madness and delusion of this article. 124.170.77.14 21:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I have never heard of any Lemba claiming themselves being superior to anyone. All of the books, articles, videos about them show that they recognize that they are not legally Jewish, only ethnically at this point. They recognize that their ancestors walked away from the Torah based path a long time ago. Their main thing has been to trying to reconnect with their ancestral past and then decide what that means for their future.
As far as the time that it is thought of when their ancestors left Yemen. The Lemba didn't know. Their oral legends simply told them who some of their ancestors were and the name of the place they came from. They didn't know where that place was. It was through their contact with Professor Tudar Parfit that he was able to piece together where their ancestors came from. This was done by him traveling to the places based on the Lemba oral legend, and other sources as well as DNA testing done on the Lemba, known Jews, and Yemenite Arabs.
On another note it is known fact that the Lemba's ancestors mixed with Bantu women over hundreds of years. That is why some of them don't look that much different from other Bantus. Rabbinic scholars don't have a problem with the existance of the Lemba. The Lemba would essentially be what is called Benei Anusim.
I think it is easy to see that this article has not been fully written. Also, there is not a lot of information outside of the research that links their ancestors to anciently being Jewish mixed with Bantu.--EhavEliyahu (talk) 23:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quest for the Lost Ark

Airing on the History Channel, did genetic testing on the Lemba, and PROVED that they ARE the lost tribe. It should be mentioned. Crash Underride 01:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I like the History Channel and I saw that documentary, but I think one needs to be a little more cautious of wholesale acceptance. The testing only proves that some of the Lemba share a gene that was common among the old Jewish priestly class, which provides a piece of evidence for their claim. However, I am not sure it is prudent to out and out "prove" the theory, basely solely on this fact. Vincent Valentine||talk to me! 12:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I saw the same special, and though I do generally like the History Channel, the man on that specific special seemed more a theorist than a historian or archaeologist. Through the whole special he continued to deny commonly accepted beliefs because it didn't fit in with what he speculated. I would also like to point out that the same special noted that the Lemba were more commonly Christian (at least now) and so the fact that they have Jewish practices could easily be explained through that. A lot of the practices are also easily explained as common among several religions. Not eating pork, for instance, is a tradition of Muslims as well as old Christianity, and the reason for the tradition in the first place was simply because (as everyone knows) eating undercooked pork can be dangerous.SarimUriel (talk) 15:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)