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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Apr 6 11:59:36 2008
Apr 06 11:59:36 * Now talking on #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 11:59:36 * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +n #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 11:59:36 * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +s #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 11:59:37 * #wikipedia-en-lectures :[freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
Apr 06 11:59:41 * Notify: sanna is online (kornbluth.freenode.net).
Apr 06 11:59:41 * Notify: siebrand is online (kornbluth.freenode.net).
Apr 06 12:07:08 * White_Cat (i=EVA@wikimedia/White-Cat) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 12:08:53 kim_ yes, it is quiet here :-P
Apr 06 14:44:25 * kim_ has changed the topic to: lecture here at 15:00 UTC (17:00 CEST)
Apr 06 14:57:26 White_Cat its 15:47
Apr 06 14:57:33 White_Cat my local time
Apr 06 15:00:29 kim_ that's an odd local time, where are you?
Apr 06 15:03:50 White_Cat +2
Apr 06 15:03:54 White_Cat not that ODD
Apr 06 15:04:01 White_Cat its actualy even
Apr 06 15:05:20 kim_ +2?
Apr 06 15:05:23 kim_ eh?
Apr 06 15:05:38 kim_ you're at +2+1?
Apr 06 15:05:46 kim_ currently CEST = UTC+0200
Apr 06 15:05:50 kim_ and CEST=15:05
Apr 06 15:06:13 * kim_ wonders where White_Cat lives
Apr 06 15:07:37 White_Cat Day Light Savings
Apr 06 15:27:19 kim_ yes but where do you live?
Apr 06 15:36:16 * snowolf (n=snowolf@wikimedia/Snowolf) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 15:53:22 kim_ Helo!
Apr 06 16:07:18 kim_ quiet here!
Apr 06 16:07:21 kim_ 1 hour to go
Apr 06 16:14:04 snowolf :)
Apr 06 16:14:10 snowolf what's the channel about?
Apr 06 16:21:32 * theoB (n=jazz@bruning.xs4all.nl) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 16:23:54 kim_ Heya theo, heya snowolf
Apr 06 16:24:09 theoB hi kim
Apr 06 16:24:13 kim_ I think today I'll explain 5 pillars
Apr 06 16:24:23 kim_ and history of that
Apr 06 16:24:30 kim_ just as a boring topic to get started
Apr 06 16:24:41 kim_ and then as people ask questions I'll switch to answering exciting questions ;-)
Apr 06 16:25:51 kim_ for folks just joining
Apr 06 16:25:55 * kim_ nudges theoB
Apr 06 16:25:57 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_Pillars
Apr 06 16:27:46 kim_ if that doesn't incite riots quite yet...
Apr 06 16:27:56 kim_ ... we could always discuss this blog post :
Apr 06 16:27:58 kim_ http://nonnotablenatterings.blogspot.com/2008/04/more-on-anonymity.html
Apr 06 16:56:54 White_Cat mmm
Apr 06 16:58:06 kim_ mmm?
Apr 06 16:58:17 kim_ well.. looks like things weren't popular at all..
Apr 06 16:58:21 kim_ saves me some time
Apr 06 16:58:29 kim_ gets me to report that lectures no worky :-P
Apr 06 16:58:40 kim_ of course, everyone might start trickling in any moment
Apr 06 17:00:26 kim_ anyone here want to help me alert people that lectures are starting?
Apr 06 17:01:31 * Lucifer_Cat (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/workingcat/x-518352) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:01:42 White_Cat kim_ well
Apr 06 17:01:47 * SynergeticMag (n=chatzill@70-9-170-79.area4.spcsdns.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:01:51 * Pilotguy_aw (n=ThetaXi@wikinews/pilotguy) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:01:51 White_Cat the idea of a lecture over IRC is a bit flawed
Apr 06 17:01:53 * Lucifer_Cat puts in a request to ban canines and relatives from the room.
Apr 06 17:01:59 White_Cat a video would be better :P
Apr 06 17:02:05 White_Cat CANVASSED!
Apr 06 17:02:40 Lucifer_Cat well hes away
Apr 06 17:02:44 Lucifer_Cat anyways, kim_ go on
Apr 06 17:02:52 Pilotguy_aw lol
Apr 06 17:02:52 * Pilotguy_aw is now known as Pilotguy
Apr 06 17:03:34 * GofG (n=godogame@cpe-069-134-155-140.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:03:37 * ST47 (i=st47@wikipedia/ST47) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:03:51 Pilotguy Meh, I think an IRC lecture works
Apr 06 17:03:55 * Maximr (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/maximr2) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:04:08 Pilotguy GofG- Ask kim_
Apr 06 17:04:12 * Maximr (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/maximr2) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:04:24 kim_ Hello!
Apr 06 17:04:26 kim_ Ok
Apr 06 17:04:29 ST47 Hello!
Apr 06 17:04:37 kim_ I'm just going down the list of people who signed on previously
Apr 06 17:04:49 kim_ and just leaving them a message that lecture starts now
Apr 06 17:05:00 kim_ I'm going to start out dronging about the 5 pillars and how they started
Apr 06 17:05:06 kim_ and I hope to get interesting questions
Apr 06 17:05:13 kim_ which we'll then spend the hour answering
Apr 06 17:05:38 * kibble (n=kibble@wikimedia/Cbrown1023) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:05:39 kibble O_O
Apr 06 17:05:46 kim_ start in ~ 5 minutes max :-)
Apr 06 17:05:49 kim_ hello kibble!
Apr 06 17:05:51 * kibble wonders what this is
Apr 06 17:05:53 kibble heya
Apr 06 17:06:32 kim_ Going to do a talk about how to influence the cabal ;-)
Apr 06 17:06:55 kibble fun
Apr 06 17:07:02 kim_ That's what I thought
Apr 06 17:07:03 kim_ let's see
Apr 06 17:07:13 GofG Which particular cabal?
Apr 06 17:07:24 kim_ The wikipedia cabal
Apr 06 17:07:27 kim_ the big one ;-)
Apr 06 17:07:33 kim_ that doesn't actually exist, of course (tinc)
Apr 06 17:07:39 kim_ Still need to notify 11 people
Apr 06 17:07:46 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures
Apr 06 17:07:47 kim_ urk
Apr 06 17:07:52 kim_ under:
Apr 06 17:07:55 kim_ ""I think I already know this stuff, but I'd love to sit in anyway"
Apr 06 17:08:02 kim_ So for the new folks
Apr 06 17:08:17 kim_ starting in a minute or ... two ... (could someone help notify the last 11 people?)
Apr 06 17:08:25 kim_ I'd like to start talking about the 5 pillars
Apr 06 17:08:27 kim_ and how they started
Apr 06 17:08:36 kim_ hmm, I'll add a link so folks have something to look at
Apr 06 17:08:46 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikirules_proposal
Apr 06 17:08:57 kim_ ^- this was the initial proposal that eventually lead to the 5 pillars
Apr 06 17:09:03 kim_ read that through for a minute :-)
Apr 06 17:09:09 kim_ This will be fairly interactive, I hope
Apr 06 17:09:35 kim_ Wikirules proposal is several influentual wikipedians asking if folks could set a simpler ruleset for wikipedia
Apr 06 17:10:06 kim_ I "subverted" the proposal, using some wiki-knowlege... so that might be a good place to start discussing how to do world domination
Apr 06 17:10:22 kim_ see if you can identify who each of the people on that page was or is :-)
Apr 06 17:10:35 kim_ I'll go notify the last 11 people in the mean time
Apr 06 17:10:44 kim_ Can I get some help? (show of hands? :-) )
Apr 06 17:10:57 * SynergeticMag shows his hand
Apr 06 17:11:23 * Lucifer_Cat raises but had zoned out
Apr 06 17:12:19 * SynergeticMag was about to notify Kim_Bruning
Apr 06 17:12:46 kim_ SynergeticMag, :-P
Apr 06 17:12:48 Lucifer_Cat lol i suppose thats kim_
Apr 06 17:13:08 Lucifer_Cat kim bruning reminds me of kimpossible
Apr 06 17:13:20 kim_ yeah this is going to be a bit messy the first time we do this
Apr 06 17:13:26 kim_ still need to get people sorted and stuff ;-)
Apr 06 17:13:38 SynergeticMag Luna-San is on irc right now but away, I've notified him here instead
Apr 06 17:13:55 Lucifer_Cat so i quanticle
Apr 06 17:13:59 Lucifer_Cat so is*
Apr 06 17:13:59 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, Erik Moeller thought the same, then I showed him some kim possible episodes
Apr 06 17:14:13 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, but you can cal me beep me when you wanna reach me anyway ;-)
Apr 06 17:14:18 kim_ call too
Apr 06 17:14:20 * Lucifer_Cat has no idea who Erik Moeller is
Apr 06 17:14:29 White_Cat ?
Apr 06 17:14:35 White_Cat Kim possible?
Apr 06 17:14:58 SynergeticMag tv show...
Apr 06 17:14:59 Lucifer_Cat also, i've never watched kim possible, just seen some ads. so if theres any reference in there, i wont get it
Apr 06 17:15:02 White_Cat kim_ that makes you non-notable cruft!
Apr 06 17:15:06 * White_Cat deletes
Apr 06 17:15:06 White_Cat :P
Apr 06 17:15:21 * Lucifer_Cat has a question...
Apr 06 17:15:28 Lucifer_Cat well nevermind.
Apr 06 17:16:48 White_Cat kim_ so
Apr 06 17:16:57 White_Cat you'll be lecturing in wikimania?
Apr 06 17:17:29 * GofG is now known as GofG_Cat
Apr 06 17:17:35 GofG_Cat Can I be a cat too?
Apr 06 17:17:37 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, go on?
Apr 06 17:17:44 kim_ we have a lot of hep cats here
Apr 06 17:17:45 Lucifer_Cat GofG_Cat: sure you can
Apr 06 17:17:48 kim_ almost done notifying ;-)
Apr 06 17:17:50 Lucifer_Cat kim_: nothing.
Apr 06 17:18:45 kim_ Ok, all notified
Apr 06 17:18:50 * GofG_Cat is now known as GofG
Apr 06 17:19:44 Lucifer_Cat GofG: :(
Apr 06 17:20:07 GofG Sorry
Apr 06 17:20:12 GofG I was talking in wikipedia-en
Apr 06 17:20:18 GofG and realised that I look silly as a cat.
Apr 06 17:20:20 kim_ Ok
Apr 06 17:20:28 kim_ all notifying that was possible has been done
Apr 06 17:20:33 kim_ Gonna start out all boring like
Apr 06 17:20:40 kim_ so how many people here already know the 5 pillars?
Apr 06 17:20:44 GofG That's a rather bold statement to make, kim_
Apr 06 17:20:52 SynergeticMag Has anyone notified the other wikipedia irc channels?
Apr 06 17:20:57 GofG >.< I'll shut up
Apr 06 17:21:00 SynergeticMag I know about them
Apr 06 17:21:03 GofG I'm aware of them, kim_
Apr 06 17:21:05 kim_ GofG, ROTFL ;-)
Apr 06 17:21:10 Lucifer_Cat I read them a bit
Apr 06 17:21:12 kim_ Okay
Apr 06 17:21:32 * SteveCrossin (n=chatzill@c211-28-55-181.frank1.vic.optusnet.com.au) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:21:42 SteveCrossin hey guys sorry im late
Apr 06 17:21:52 * GofG hugs SteveCrossin
Apr 06 17:21:54 SteveCrossin internet broke about 30mins ago
Apr 06 17:21:55 kim_ heya!
Apr 06 17:21:56 kim_ :-)
Apr 06 17:21:58 kim_ LOL
Apr 06 17:22:01 kim_ Poor you!
Apr 06 17:22:02 kim_ it's ok
Apr 06 17:22:07 kim_ we were still busy notifying people
Apr 06 17:22:14 kim_ not everyone has their clocks set to UTC
Apr 06 17:22:15 SteveCrossin my PC crashes today
Apr 06 17:22:18 SteveCrossin had to reformat
Apr 06 17:22:25 kim_ SynergeticMag, feel free to notify other channels
Apr 06 17:22:55 SteveCrossin i need a user blocked for 24 hours
Apr 06 17:22:57 * Received a CTCP PING 1041842898906 from SynergeticMag
Apr 06 17:23:04 SteveCrossin incivility with warnings
Apr 06 17:23:11 SteveCrossin im the mediator
Apr 06 17:23:22 kim_ ok, so 5 pillars are that wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it has a neutral point of view, wikipeida is free content, there's a code of conduct (etiquette) , and it doesn't have firm rules
Apr 06 17:23:23 SteveCrossin and theyve been notified of it
Apr 06 17:23:25 kim_ that's the current 5 pillars
Apr 06 17:23:37 kim_ SteveCrossin, wrong channel for that!
Apr 06 17:23:46 SteveCrossin sorry
Apr 06 17:23:51 kim_ SteveCrossin, 's ok :-)
Apr 06 17:23:57 kim_ SteveCrossin, ask on #wikipedia-en :-)
Apr 06 17:24:03 kim_ Ok...
Apr 06 17:24:08 kim_ Starting lecture officially now
Apr 06 17:24:16 kim_ So hello everyone, welcome to this first irc lecture :-)
Apr 06 17:24:27 GofG Howdy Kim!
Apr 06 17:24:30 * GofG hugs kim_
Apr 06 17:24:52 kim_ we're starting about half an hour late, due to having to notify people who didn't have their clocks set to UTC, we might expect some more people to trickle in as time progresses
Apr 06 17:24:59 * kim_ gets hugged (only on irc folks! ;-) )
Apr 06 17:25:32 kim_ so I'm the person doing most of the talking today... but to spare my poor wrists, I hope to get people talking with each other as well at some point
Apr 06 17:25:45 kim_ I'm going to start out somewhat boringly with the 5 pillars
Apr 06 17:25:56 kim_ and then I hope to get questions and we can take interesting side routes
Apr 06 17:26:23 kim_ especially drifting off towards consensus and some cool work kevin murray has been doing, or some old work by nullc (Greg Maxwell)
Apr 06 17:27:31 kim_ Okay, so in january of 2005, people started seeing that wikipedias rules were getting way too complex, and they wanted to set up a commission to discuss how wikipedia policy could be improved
Apr 06 17:28:02 kim_ Now several months later, they were still in the process of setting up that commission
Apr 06 17:28:10 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikirules_proposal
Apr 06 17:28:26 kim_ But then someone http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikirules_proposal&diff=12123669&oldid=11992320
Apr 06 17:28:33 kim_ <cough cough> proposed a different method ;-)
Apr 06 17:28:37 kim_ namely to use the wiki
Apr 06 17:28:56 kim_ and when the wiki was applied to the same process...
Apr 06 17:29:32 kim_ we basically got several pages of work [[WP:SR]] (simplified ruleset) , [[WP:TRI]] (policy trifecta) and [[WP:5P]] (5 pillars)
Apr 06 17:29:46 kim_ does everyone know how to look up those pages?
Apr 06 17:29:49 * kim_ triplechecks
Apr 06 17:29:55 SteveCrossin yeah
Apr 06 17:30:06 SteveCrossin u taught me about trifecta :)
Apr 06 17:30:41 SynergeticMag yup
Apr 06 17:30:43 kim_ I know of one person who might not... basically you go to en.wikipedia.org and type what's inside the square brackets in the search box (so type WP:TRI in the search box to get a page about the trifecta, it's a useful shortcut)
Apr 06 17:31:06 kim_ (also, some folks reading the log might find that handy)
Apr 06 17:31:28 kim_ so after 5 minutes of furious typing... here's a question to the channel to solve...
Apr 06 17:31:43 kim_ what's the difference between [[WP:TRI]] and [[WP:5P]] , which 2 rules hav been added?
Apr 06 17:31:55 * Seddon (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/seddon69) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 17:32:05 Seddon Many apologies for my late arrival
Apr 06 17:32:12 Seddon i have been up a mountain all day
Apr 06 17:32:13 * SynergeticMag will provide the links the links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TRI, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:5_pillars, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sr
Apr 06 17:32:16 kim_ heya seddon, we're just comparing [[WP:TRI]] with [[WP:5P]] ...
Apr 06 17:32:21 kim_ SynergeticMag, thank you! :-)
Apr 06 17:33:06 kim_ but on the current wikipedia, we really see 2 trifectas emerging
Apr 06 17:33:08 GofG well
Apr 06 17:33:10 kim_ one is the wiki-trifecta
Apr 06 17:33:15 kim_ the other the encyclopedia one ...
Apr 06 17:33:18 kim_ GofG, go on?
Apr 06 17:33:22 GofG No, nevermind
Apr 06 17:34:09 kim_ *sigh*
Apr 06 17:34:36 kim_ Oh well
Apr 06 17:34:39 kim_ Anyone so far?
Apr 06 17:34:42 SynergeticMag of course IAR is one
Apr 06 17:35:06 kim_ SynergeticMag, IAR is the 5th rule of the 5 pillars :-)
Apr 06 17:35:13 kim_ so that's common between the two. yup :-)
Apr 06 17:35:33 SynergeticMag oh you're looking for the difference's?
Apr 06 17:35:45 kim_ heh, and on the 5 pillars, WP:Etiquette replaces "Don't be a dick"
Apr 06 17:35:52 kim_ hmm, I wonder why they did that? :-P
Apr 06 17:36:08 GofG Well, "Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia" implies a lot more in it than "Wikipedia should have an NPOV"
Apr 06 17:36:10 SteveCrossin i think WP:DICK is the universal behavioural guideline
Apr 06 17:36:16 kim_ GofG, *nodnod*
Apr 06 17:36:20 kim_ SteveCrossin, <grin>
Apr 06 17:36:23 SteveCrossin like I told you once, if you follow WP:DICK
Apr 06 17:36:27 SteveCrossin you cant go wrong
Apr 06 17:36:48 kim_ Of course, these days people say "please be civil" instead
Apr 06 17:36:49 GofG The former implying things like verifiability, proper style, and NPOV
Apr 06 17:36:51 kim_ which is the same difference
Apr 06 17:36:56 GofG the latter implying simply NPOV
Apr 06 17:36:57 kim_ GofG, right
Apr 06 17:37:06 kim_ so the 5 pillars are more all-inclusive
Apr 06 17:37:07 GofG Except that
Apr 06 17:37:12 * kim_ listnes
Apr 06 17:37:13 GofG NPOV is in the 2nd pillar
Apr 06 17:37:16 * kim_ listens too
Apr 06 17:37:16 Seddon wht if what you considered being a dick to be normal in your society and something which is perhaps expected
Apr 06 17:37:20 GofG It's more like
Apr 06 17:37:29 Seddon people have different interpretations of what a "dick" is
Apr 06 17:37:29 kim_ GofG, so NPOV gets stressed some more?
Apr 06 17:37:44 GofG They split up TRI's NPOV rule into 5P's Encyclopedia rule and 5P's NPOV rule
Apr 06 17:37:53 kim_ GofG, right
Apr 06 17:37:59 GofG I would say that Encyclopedia gets stressed more, since they took it out of NPOV and made it its own section
Apr 06 17:38:04 GofG But I could very easiliy be wrong
Apr 06 17:38:06 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Five_pillars&oldid=13207659
Apr 06 17:38:14 kim_ GofG, you could have a point
Apr 06 17:38:25 kim_ here's the original 5 pillars written by neutrality
Apr 06 17:39:01 kim_ if you want a look at the history of these pages, you can look at [[WT:SR]] , which has discussion about simplified rulesets, and eventually people proposing the trifecta
Apr 06 17:39:23 kim_ neutrality figured that the trifecta was a tad too simple
Apr 06 17:39:43 kim_ So ... do you folks think that these 5 rules really do cover all wikipedia activity?
Apr 06 17:39:50 GofG I personally don't
Apr 06 17:39:57 kim_ GofG, what's missing?
Apr 06 17:40:33 GofG All the.... beurocratic stuff
Apr 06 17:40:40 GofG I dunno, it's hard to explain
Apr 06 17:40:54 GofG There's a ton of politics going on
Apr 06 17:41:00 kim_ <grin>
Apr 06 17:41:03 Seddon the nitty gritty perhaps?
Apr 06 17:41:05 kim_ Indeed
Apr 06 17:41:18 GofG brb soup
Apr 06 17:41:20 kim_ GofG, so I'd like to cover some of the underlying politics perhaps :-)
Apr 06 17:41:22 kim_ soup! ;-)
Apr 06 17:41:28 kim_ Seddon, I guess so
Apr 06 17:41:47 * SteveCrossin will be right back
Apr 06 17:41:55 SteveCrossin i have a conflict to handle :/
Apr 06 17:42:13 SynergeticMag which ones kim_:
Apr 06 17:42:15 GofG Back
Apr 06 17:42:19 kim_ If you look at [[WP:SR]] , the original plan was to list only those things that you would need to obtain adminship ... in 2005
Apr 06 17:42:22 GofG Ended up going for cereal >.<
Apr 06 17:42:27 kim_ wb
Apr 06 17:42:29 GofG kim_: How so?
Apr 06 17:42:37 kim_ GofG, how so on which statement?
Apr 06 17:42:40 GofG As in, "this is the model for a good editor"?
Apr 06 17:42:47 kim_ SteveCrossin, keep your window open and keep logging :-)
Apr 06 17:42:52 kim_ GofG, exactly :-)
Apr 06 17:43:02 SteveCrossin will do
Apr 06 17:43:02 kim_ which is what wikipedia documentation is supposed to be about, right?
Apr 06 17:43:09 SteveCrossin they were blocked
Apr 06 17:43:11 * SteveCrossin sighs
Apr 06 17:43:13 kim_ SteveCrossin, awww
Apr 06 17:43:22 SteveCrossin it had to happen
Apr 06 17:43:27 kim_ SteveCrossin, you wanted them to be blocked though, right?
Apr 06 17:43:27 GofG Wasn't/isn't adminship acceptance extremely varied based on who happens to be voting at the time, though?
Apr 06 17:43:45 SteveCrossin yes, extreme incivility
Apr 06 17:43:47 kim_ GofG, well, everyone is supposed to have a clue about what actually makes a good admin , right?
Apr 06 17:43:48 SynergeticMag Can we keep the conversation on the topic if at all possible. I was getting interested in the discussion. :)
Apr 06 17:44:04 kim_ SynergeticMag, underlying politics? :-)
Apr 06 17:44:13 SynergeticMag yes
Apr 06 17:44:25 kim_ alright, everyone else want to continue on that line? :-)
Apr 06 17:44:26 SynergeticMag this sounds massive
Apr 06 17:44:27 Seddon well tbh i think RfA is the place where alot of politics can be found in a condensed manner
Apr 06 17:44:35 kim_ Seddon, indeed
Apr 06 17:44:50 kim_ I'll cover some basic theory, and then we can discuss... sound like a plan?
Apr 06 17:44:56 Seddon ok cool :)
Apr 06 17:44:58 kim_ naturally, I want to start out talking about consensus ;-)
Apr 06 17:45:11 kim_ so first question, what is consensus...?
Apr 06 17:45:20 kim_ Several folks might have some ideas themselves
Apr 06 17:45:34 GofG Hmm
Apr 06 17:45:40 kim_ so what definitions do people have? (in 1 or 2 lines?)
Apr 06 17:46:10 SynergeticMag consensus is something that is rarely seen and hardly ever achieved, yet referenced constantly
Apr 06 17:46:21 GofG A state where everyone is content with the current state of the article, or if you're looking for a more general definition, a state where all involved parties are simply content with the state of things?
Apr 06 17:46:35 SynergeticMag http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus
Apr 06 17:46:55 SynergeticMag GofG: as i said :)
Apr 06 17:47:21 SynergeticMag true consensus can never be achieved on wikipedia, since it cannot exist outside of it
Apr 06 17:47:22 kim_ SynergeticMag, well, we wrote a piece on that
Apr 06 17:47:32 kim_ at [[WP:SILENCE]]
Apr 06 17:47:38 SynergeticMag i've seen it
Apr 06 17:47:38 kim_ (silence and consensus)
Apr 06 17:47:57 kim_ basically it says that you can never really know you have consensus on anything
Apr 06 17:48:06 kim_ you can only figure that maybe you didn't when someone objects
Apr 06 17:48:14 kim_ now we can actually tie that to RFA quite nicely...
Apr 06 17:48:31 kim_ so on requests for adminship (WP:RFA for people who want to find it quickly)
Apr 06 17:48:38 GofG Really now?
Apr 06 17:48:44 GofG Wow, lag, sec
Apr 06 17:48:47 kim_ people often challenge people's opinions don't they?
Apr 06 17:48:52 GofG Yes
Apr 06 17:48:57 SynergeticMag what seems to exist is the illusion of consensus, more like consensus until (fill in the blank/reason)
Apr 06 17:49:16 GofG I remember on LV's RFA, people were annoyed that his name violated copyright laws
Apr 06 17:49:20 kim_ so do *support* opinions get challenged most , or do *oppose* opinions get challenged most? ;-)
Apr 06 17:49:24 kim_ SynergeticMag, *nod*
Apr 06 17:49:29 kim_ GofG, Oh wow
Apr 06 17:49:41 kim_ GofG, that might not have been a typical RFA
Apr 06 17:49:50 GofG Hehe, it was fun to watch
Apr 06 17:49:56 SteveCrossin ok
Apr 06 17:49:57 GofG He had like 10,000 edits and knew exactly what he was doing
Apr 06 17:49:58 kim_ has everyone noticed this tendency to challenge opposes more than supports?
Apr 06 17:50:05 kim_ GofG, wow. Did he pass? :-P
Apr 06 17:50:09 GofG Yeah, barely
Apr 06 17:50:15 GofG But his name is "Lord Voldemort"
Apr 06 17:50:15 SynergeticMag kim_: i've seen both, but usually it tends to go with the flow of an RfA, the trend i.e. herd mentality
Apr 06 17:50:17 kim_ incredible
Apr 06 17:50:18 GofG come on rofl
Apr 06 17:50:22 SteveCrossin whoa
Apr 06 17:50:33 kim_ He Who Must Not Be Named? ;-)
Apr 06 17:50:54 kim_ goodness, I'd oppose... obvious power-hunger there :-P
Apr 06 17:50:59 kim_ (just kidding ;-) )
Apr 06 17:51:18 kim_ SynergeticMag, you've seen people question supports as well?
Apr 06 17:51:26 SynergeticMag of course
Apr 06 17:51:26 kim_ That's interesting to hear
Apr 06 17:51:32 SynergeticMag i think it should be
Apr 06 17:51:41 kim_ SynergeticMag, typically when the majority is already opposed?
Apr 06 17:51:46 SynergeticMag nope
Apr 06 17:51:53 kim_ Ok, very interesting
Apr 06 17:52:05 kim_ so do you all think it's appropriate to question a person's opinion?
Apr 06 17:52:23 SynergeticMag there have been few and minor occasions when a supporter will not have a well thought out support
Apr 06 17:52:32 SynergeticMag kim_: sure, why not?
Apr 06 17:52:48 SynergeticMag if it lacks, it lacks, shouldn't matter if its a support or oppose
Apr 06 17:53:24 kim_ <grin>
Apr 06 17:53:53 kim_ well, we've been seeing some people say that you should leave a person to their opinions :-)
Apr 06 17:53:59 GofG kim_: There is an excellent example currently on RFA
Apr 06 17:54:08 SynergeticMag i do often ignore alot of pile on supports, but i'm speaking more about bad support rationale
Apr 06 17:54:20 kim_ but since we're working in a consensus system, discussing with opposers (and the occaisional support) is genrally a good idea
Apr 06 17:54:31 GofG Lawrence Cohen's RFA, every single opposition has an entire conversation about it
Apr 06 17:54:38 GofG while none of the supports have any comments on them whatsoever
Apr 06 17:54:41 SynergeticMag i saw that
Apr 06 17:54:44 kim_ since there's an 80/20 bias, an oppose can be worth several supports, if you can negotiate with them and convince them to support you :-)
Apr 06 17:55:10 SynergeticMag thats the actual trick there kim
Apr 06 17:55:23 SynergeticMag "negotiate" can be seen as argumentitive
Apr 06 17:55:31 SynergeticMag (sp?)
Apr 06 17:55:45 kim_ this is irc, spelling is secondary ;-)
Apr 06 17:55:55 SynergeticMag lol
Apr 06 17:56:04 kim_ and if you're seen as too argumentative, that can lose you support, yup
Apr 06 17:57:24 GofG So where's the balance?
Apr 06 17:57:41 SynergeticMag the balance for consensus?
Apr 06 17:57:49 kim_ well, ideally, people wouldn't see it as being argumentative at all
Apr 06 17:57:58 SteveCrossin ok im back
Apr 06 17:58:00 SteveCrossin :/
Apr 06 17:58:04 kim_ but not everyone understands consensus systems, so there you have it ;-)
Apr 06 17:58:26 SteveCrossin {{sigh}}
Apr 06 17:58:27 kim_ by talking on irc, and later perhaps irl, one of my hopes is that the balance will shift towards more discussion
Apr 06 17:58:36 kim_ welcome back SteveCrossin , been working hard?
Apr 06 17:58:41 SynergeticMag i agree, not everyone who participates in RfA (or even AfD's) always understands how things work
Apr 06 17:58:46 SteveCrossin yeah i feel :/
Apr 06 17:59:04 SynergeticMag and can obfuscate the entire process in a matter of seconds
Apr 06 17:59:05 kim_ SteveCrossin, I know how you feel. First block ever?
Apr 06 17:59:16 kim_ SynergeticMag, that quick? :-)
Apr 06 17:59:22 SteveCrossin regarding to mediation, yea
Apr 06 17:59:28 SteveCrossin other blocks, no
Apr 06 17:59:40 SteveCrossin ive had lots blocked
Apr 06 17:59:41 kim_ SynergeticMag, maybe you'd like to list some examples later when we post the log
Apr 06 17:59:46 SteveCrossin but never a mediation block
Apr 06 17:59:52 kim_ SteveCrossin, I see.
Apr 06 17:59:52 SteveCrossin :/
Apr 06 18:00:09 kim_ SteveCrossin, doing good man. Chat with you about it later :-)
Apr 06 18:00:12 SynergeticMag sure, if i have time, i unfortunately have to go to work soon
Apr 06 18:00:16 SteveCrossin okay
Apr 06 18:00:29 * SteveCrossin listens to the wise scholar, kim_ ;)
Apr 06 18:00:32 kim_ SynergeticMag, well, perhaps we should stop in 20 minutes or so?
Apr 06 18:00:35 kim_ SteveCrossin, ahuh ;-)
Apr 06 18:00:42 kim_ me and wise, that'll be the day
Apr 06 18:00:48 SteveCrossin lol
Apr 06 18:01:20 SteveCrossin um
Apr 06 18:01:25 SteveCrossin "since there's an 80/20 bias, an oppose can be worth several supports, if you can negotiate with them and convince them to support you"
Apr 06 18:01:31 kim_ SteveCrossin, yes?
Apr 06 18:01:32 SteveCrossin sort of like ArbCom?
Apr 06 18:01:39 kim_ how's that?
Apr 06 18:01:44 SteveCrossin where one oppose subtracts a support
Apr 06 18:01:55 * SteveCrossin is just thinking out loud
Apr 06 18:02:58 Seddon (this might sound a little farhetched) ok you could think about the battle for consensus as a kind of gorrilla warfare
Apr 06 18:03:05 Seddon farfetched*
Apr 06 18:03:39 SteveCrossin gorilla?
Apr 06 18:03:41 SteveCrossin lol
Apr 06 18:03:46 Seddon yer :P
Apr 06 18:03:48 Seddon anyway
Apr 06 18:03:56 SynergeticMag actually, i don't have any example i can think of about confused consensus decisions regarding an RfA, what I actually meant was that inside of the consensus process, there tends to be opposes due to common misunderstandings
Apr 06 18:04:02 SynergeticMag should have been more clear
Apr 06 18:04:19 SynergeticMag apologies :)
Apr 06 18:04:43 GofG guerilla, perhaps?
Apr 06 18:04:49 Seddon thats even better
Apr 06 18:05:00 kim_ well
Apr 06 18:05:11 Seddon i mean sometimes it is often only one or two people fighting a corner
Apr 06 18:05:21 Seddon and they may have very serious points
Apr 06 18:05:22 kim_ Seddon, and later?
Apr 06 18:05:25 * kim_ listens
Apr 06 18:05:53 * SteveCrossin lets Seddon speak
Apr 06 18:05:55 SynergeticMag but seldom our their points abuse of tools, or policy concerns
Apr 06 18:06:00 SynergeticMag just minor nit picking
Apr 06 18:06:06 SynergeticMag POV opposes
Apr 06 18:06:12 Seddon this isnt just related to RfA its a wider problem
Apr 06 18:06:18 SynergeticMag WP:IDONTLIKEIT
Apr 06 18:06:31 SynergeticMag well it sparked from it Seddon
Apr 06 18:06:44 SynergeticMag a spark gives birth to flames :)
Apr 06 18:06:47 SteveCrossin WP:PAULINE
Apr 06 18:06:49 SteveCrossin XD
Apr 06 18:06:53 Seddon very true
Apr 06 18:07:05 SteveCrossin [[Pauline Hanson]]
Apr 06 18:07:10 kim_ right
Apr 06 18:07:17 SteveCrossin sorry :P
Apr 06 18:07:27 kim_ how to deal with fighting like that might be an interesting topic for a later lecture
Apr 06 18:07:41 Seddon agreed :P
Apr 06 18:07:46 kim_ we might ask one of the current or old mediation cabal coordinators (or the medcom coordinator) to speak on that :-)
Apr 06 18:07:47 Seddon ill let you get back on topic :p
Apr 06 18:07:59 kim_ I'll just go do some more 101 on policy
Apr 06 18:08:06 kim_ and show ye olde consensus chart
Apr 06 18:08:20 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Consensus_new_and_old.svg
Apr 06 18:08:34 kim_ this one differs somewhat from consensus process used IRL
Apr 06 18:08:40 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Consensus-flowchart.png
Apr 06 18:08:44 kim_ which looks more like this
Apr 06 18:08:58 kim_ the reason for this is that wikipedia is online, and a wiki
Apr 06 18:09:10 kim_ ;-)
Apr 06 18:09:24 SteveCrossin heh
Apr 06 18:09:32 SteveCrossin concerns raised -->block
Apr 06 18:09:40 SteveCrossin thats what happened today :/
Apr 06 18:09:43 GofG Why would that make a difference?
Apr 06 18:09:44 kim_ awww
Apr 06 18:09:58 kim_ GofG, That's a good question, and one which I don't have a full answer to yet :-)
Apr 06 18:10:06 kim_ something I'm still learning about myself
Apr 06 18:10:10 SteveCrossin its gonna be harder now, but anyway, that can be discussed later :)
Apr 06 18:10:18 SteveCrossin kim learning? :o
Apr 06 18:10:32 * SteveCrossin thought kim_ already knew everything
Apr 06 18:10:36 kim_ the main reason i can figure is that we already have a structure in which we can hold our discussions
Apr 06 18:10:41 Lucifer_Cat if he doesnt soon, we'll make sure hes kim_burning
Apr 06 18:10:49 kim_ SteveCrossin, no one knows everything ;-)
Apr 06 18:10:56 kim_ not anymore anyway
Apr 06 18:10:58 Lucifer_Cat kim_: gandalf does.
Apr 06 18:11:04 Lucifer_Cat ok did.
Apr 06 18:11:04 SteveCrossin LOL
Apr 06 18:11:09 kim_ I used to have a friend who boasted she knew all wikipedia policy by heart
Apr 06 18:11:18 SteveCrossin and..
Apr 06 18:11:23 kim_ but that was 2 years ago or so, and she's now no longer boasting ;-)
Apr 06 18:11:25 Lucifer_Cat heh, didnt have anything better to do?
Apr 06 18:11:38 kim_ LOL, she was on medcab, and later on arbcom :-)
Apr 06 18:11:50 kim_ hence
Apr 06 18:11:51 Lucifer_Cat medical cabinet?
Apr 06 18:12:00 SteveCrossin LOL
Apr 06 18:12:03 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, mediation cabal , sorry [[WP:MEDCAB]]
Apr 06 18:12:13 kim_ and arbcom is arbitration committee [[WP:ARBCOM]]
Apr 06 18:12:18 Lucifer_Cat im sure its not cabal
Apr 06 18:12:22 kim_ I use the famous abbreviations too often :-P
Apr 06 18:12:26 * SynergeticMag says he should have tossed a link out
Apr 06 18:12:27 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, not sekrit enough? ;-)
Apr 06 18:12:31 SteveCrossin TINC!!
Apr 06 18:12:34 kim_ SynergeticMag, goforit! ;-)
Apr 06 18:12:50 kim_ anyway
Apr 06 18:13:09 kim_ on a wiki we try to write everything in DocumentMode first ... hang on, that's a trickier link
Apr 06 18:13:15 Lucifer_Cat We cannot confirm or deny our existence.
Apr 06 18:13:16 SynergeticMag http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:DISPUTE
Apr 06 18:13:17 Lucifer_Cat lol
Apr 06 18:13:25 SynergeticMag i decided to toss out the whole process
Apr 06 18:13:54 SynergeticMag (the link to it mind you)
Apr 06 18:14:02 kim_ http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DocumentMode
Apr 06 18:14:32 kim_ and also http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?DocumentMode
Apr 06 18:15:03 kim_ Ok, so main wiki pages are in documentmode
Apr 06 18:15:03 * Pilotguy is now known as Pilotguy_aw
Apr 06 18:15:07 kim_ while talk opages are threadmode
Apr 06 18:15:25 kim_ http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreadMode
Apr 06 18:15:35 kim_ documentmode is basically a wikipedia article, or a policy page
Apr 06 18:15:49 kim_ while threadmode is what our discussion pages look like
Apr 06 18:16:00 kim_ on some wikis, there are no separate talk pages
Apr 06 18:16:11 kim_ and you're supposed to refactor thread mode into document mode
Apr 06 18:16:20 * Pilotguy_aw is now known as Pilotguy
Apr 06 18:16:27 Seddon as an off point i considered renaming MedCab, to MadCab
Apr 06 18:16:37 Seddon but thats a different matter
Apr 06 18:16:49 kim_ http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatIsRefactoring
Apr 06 18:16:53 kim_ Seddon, :P
Apr 06 18:17:25 kim_ so our consensus process is based on trying to work on documentmode first, and then falling back to threadmode if it fails
Apr 06 18:17:31 kim_ if you see the flowchart, you'll see two cycles
Apr 06 18:17:36 * Sniperz11 (n=a@155.69.177.146) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 06 18:17:45 kim_ and indeed, the right hand one stays in documentmode (constant edits to the page)
Apr 06 18:18:02 kim_ while the left hand cycle refers to what happens when people start reverting
Apr 06 18:18:09 kim_ Hi Sniperz11
Apr 06 18:18:22 kim_ we just were talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Consensus_new_and_old.svg
Apr 06 18:18:25 kim_ alright
Apr 06 18:18:31 kim_ so we've covered some basics today...
Apr 06 18:18:42 kim_ was any of this new or enlightening?
Apr 06 18:18:45 * kim_ hopes so :-)
Apr 06 18:18:57 kim_ else I'll have to make the next lecture much harder somehow :-P
Apr 06 18:19:16 Sniperz11 hello
Apr 06 18:19:19 kim_ Now there's one thing I'd briefly like to discuss :-)
Apr 06 18:19:20 Sniperz11 thanks for informing me
Apr 06 18:19:39 Seddon i think that its something that go on kim_
Apr 06 18:19:46 kim_ Seddon, fair enough :-)
Apr 06 18:20:10 kim_ Sniperz11, we're finishing for today, though we'll be there again same time next week
Apr 06 18:20:19 kim_ Sniperz11, and we'll have a log put up later today as well
Apr 06 18:20:33 Sniperz11 thanks
Apr 06 18:20:43 kim_ Okay, so you know that you're supposed to make edits that will gain consensus
Apr 06 18:20:49 kim_ else you might get accused of vandalism or whatnot?
Apr 06 18:20:54 kim_ I think everyone already knew that much
Apr 06 18:21:16 kim_ has anyone ever tried to predict what consensus would be ahead of time, and then made edits based on that *prediction* ? :-)
Apr 06 18:21:23 kim_ show of hands? :-)
Apr 06 18:21:31 GofG I haven't >.<
Apr 06 18:21:52 * SteveCrossin raises hand
Apr 06 18:21:59 Sniperz11 I tried...
Apr 06 18:22:46 kim_ Sniperz11, what happened? :-)
Apr 06 18:23:08 kim_ SteveCrossin, Cool :-)
Apr 06 18:23:11 Sniperz11 I tried a few times to edit based on what I thought would be the consensus
Apr 06 18:23:20 SteveCrossin in mediations
Apr 06 18:23:21 kim_ Sniperz11, what happened when you did that?
Apr 06 18:23:28 Sniperz11 but usually, it would be rv'ed till consensus was set
Apr 06 18:23:32 Sniperz11 i dont remember
Apr 06 18:23:33 kim_ SteveCrossin, it does seem to come up there a lot, doesn't it?
Apr 06 18:23:39 SteveCrossin yea
Apr 06 18:23:40 Sniperz11 must have been about 4-5 months ago
Apr 06 18:23:46 kim_ Sniperz11, Interesting. There is a group on wikipedia that does work that way too.
Apr 06 18:23:46 SteveCrossin but
Apr 06 18:23:52 SteveCrossin generally
Apr 06 18:23:55 kim_ Sniperz11, I don't typically agree with them ... ;-)
Apr 06 18:24:08 Sniperz11 hehe
Apr 06 18:24:10 * kim_ might invite someone to give a lecture about that particular method too
Apr 06 18:24:15 SteveCrossin global consensus outweghs local concensus, right?
Apr 06 18:24:21 Sniperz11 I gave up on that method after that.
Apr 06 18:24:22 kim_ SteveCrossin, in general, yes
Apr 06 18:24:31 Sniperz11 Now, i'm a strictly consensus guy
Apr 06 18:24:34 SteveCrossin yeah in general
Apr 06 18:24:35 kim_ Sniperz11, that's too bad, it actually works fairly well.
Apr 06 18:24:37 Sniperz11 no non-consensual edits
Apr 06 18:24:47 kim_ Sniperz11, I see. that's actually not too good
Apr 06 18:25:03 kim_ Sniperz11, if you edit based on predicted consensus, or based on your preference, that's how you reach consensus quickest
Apr 06 18:25:12 Sniperz11 yes...
Apr 06 18:25:18 kim_ so how can you find predicted consensus?
Apr 06 18:25:40 Sniperz11 I'm sure waiting for consensus isn't the best idea for active pages, rite?
Apr 06 18:26:01 Sniperz11 I usually edit pages where we have a small clique of active editors... about 5-10
Apr 06 18:26:03 kim_ well, I guess that's where some of the discussion at "what ignore all rules means" (at [[WP:WIARM]] ) is about
Apr 06 18:26:18 kim_ Sniperz11, we just discussed that you can wait forever for consensus to come along. :-) You have to make consensus yourself
Apr 06 18:27:00 Sniperz11 hehe... yes. like I said, in pages i usually edit, there are a few active editors, so the discussion is quite fast
Apr 06 18:27:01 kim_ basically, try to discover what people have already been thinking about the topic. Check policy pages, talk pages, discussions on user talk pages, and maybe meatball and wardwiki
Apr 06 18:27:11 kim_ Sniperz11, and most pages work that way
Apr 06 18:27:28 kim_ Sniperz11, there are only a couple of very busy ages. Maybe 4000 out of 2000 000 around now
Apr 06 18:27:34 Sniperz11 yes
Apr 06 18:27:36 kim_ we need to do some new statistics :-)
Apr 06 18:28:40 kim_ when we last looked it was 1000 out of 1M (so I'm doubling my estimate to be on the safe side)
Apr 06 18:28:50 Sniperz11 hmm...
Apr 06 18:30:06 kim_ so final questions for the day... was today useful to you? And what should be discussed at the next lectures?
Apr 06 18:30:14 Seddon DR
Apr 06 18:30:32 kim_ the mediators would like to hear more about DR ;-)
Apr 06 18:30:35 kim_ right
Apr 06 18:30:42 kim_ other folks?
Apr 06 18:31:00 Sniperz11 could we have a bit of discussion about images and the related issues
Apr 06 18:31:01 * kim_ wonders if I've bored half the folks here to death
Apr 06 18:31:09 kim_ Images? Interesting
Apr 06 18:31:16 kim_ Oh yes, all the different laws and licenses
Apr 06 18:31:27 kim_ it's probably not obvious to new people. :-)
Apr 06 18:31:27 Sniperz11 not just the copyrights, but something about cleaning up images
Apr 06 18:31:29 Sniperz11 croping
Apr 06 18:31:32 Sniperz11 etc
Apr 06 18:31:38 kim_ you mean image tutorials?
Apr 06 18:31:42 * SteveCrossin writes FURs for 24 images :P
Apr 06 18:31:46 Sniperz11 sort of
Apr 06 18:31:51 SteveCrossin so theyre not deleted
Apr 06 18:31:55 kim_ That's maybe a bit outside the scope of these particular talks
Apr 06 18:32:03 kim_ well they're outside the scope I thought of
Apr 06 18:32:09 Sniperz11 ok... no problem.
Apr 06 18:32:14 kim_ if you can find others also interested in that kind of stuff, we could discuss :-)
Apr 06 18:32:20 kim_ Sniperz11, well, I'm open to the idea :-)
Apr 06 18:32:27 Sniperz11 I was just thinkin aloud.
Apr 06 18:32:33 kim_ I haven't done gimp or photoshop tutorials in ages :-)
Apr 06 18:33:03 kim_ GofG, kibble , Lucifer_Cat , Pilotguy , SteveCrossin , ST47 , snowolf , SynergeticMag , theoB , White_Cat ? Any comments?
Apr 06 18:33:16 SteveCrossin uh
Apr 06 18:33:20 SteveCrossin on what :P
Apr 06 18:33:21 White_Cat ?
Apr 06 18:33:24 * Lucifer_Cat suddenly jolts up... um yes.. err... 42~
Apr 06 18:33:26 * SteveCrossin is writing FURs
Apr 06 18:33:27 * kibble hasn't been paying attention
Apr 06 18:33:31 White_Cat 42
Apr 06 18:33:31 kibble sorry :-(
Apr 06 18:33:37 kim_ hehehe
Apr 06 18:33:41 kim_ I put y'all to sleep?
Apr 06 18:33:51 White_Cat not really
Apr 06 18:33:53 Lucifer_Cat kim_: its the name of the chan
Apr 06 18:33:56 Pilotguy hmm good work today ;)
Apr 06 18:34:00 SynergeticMag i'm not good on image conversations :)
Apr 06 18:34:02 kim_ kibble, what kind of exciting lecture can we have next time, that's sure to stir up controversy on en.wikipedia? ;-)
Apr 06 18:34:03 SteveCrossin 42
Apr 06 18:34:09 SteveCrossin Lucifer_Cat: LOL
Apr 06 18:34:10 Sniperz11 CABAL!!!!
Apr 06 18:34:18 Sniperz11 ;-P
Apr 06 18:34:18 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, <grin>
Apr 06 18:34:22 kibble kim_: why jimmy is unfit for godkink
Apr 06 18:34:24 * kibble hides
Apr 06 18:34:26 kibble :-P
Apr 06 18:34:27 White_Cat kim_ I am easy to distract
Apr 06 18:34:34 kibble king...*
Apr 06 18:34:37 kim_ Sniperz11, we can do some more discussion about how and why the cabal operates
Apr 06 18:34:39 kim_ and what the cabal is
Apr 06 18:34:42 * Pilotguy (n=ThetaXi@wikinews/pilotguy) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures ("Time makes no sense")
Apr 06 18:34:49 Lucifer_Cat thanks kim_ for bringing back the memories of college
Apr 06 18:34:52 kim_ kibble, oooooohhhhh, that sounds scary ;-)
Apr 06 18:35:04 kibble :-D
Apr 06 18:35:05 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, you're welcome, I hope I was a lot less boring than the professors ;-)
Apr 06 18:35:30 GofG Thanks, kim_, for possibly giving me an insight into what college is like
Apr 06 18:35:31 Lucifer_Cat kim_: i wish i could say that.
Apr 06 18:35:32 kim_ I think we did the best we could for an initial talk :-)
Apr 06 18:35:39 Lucifer_Cat but you lost me at trifectas
Apr 06 18:35:47 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, Ouch! you should have yelled man :-)
Apr 06 18:35:50 Lucifer_Cat kidding
Apr 06 18:36:11 kim_ Lucifer_Cat, the idea is to speak up if I've lost you, so we can keep you in the loop and adjust the program
Apr 06 18:36:17 kim_ will you all be coming back next week?
Apr 06 18:36:32 kim_ GofG, college is much more boring, often, except MIT or so :-P
Apr 06 18:36:41 Lucifer_Cat heh, im always online, just ping me, i'll come over if im within earshot
Apr 06 18:36:51 Sniperz11 I'll try... I've got exams coming up
Apr 06 18:37:03 Lucifer_Cat kim_: MIT can be very very boring too
Apr 06 18:37:03 Sniperz11 I'll stay on freenode the whole day for that day
Apr 06 18:37:39 kim_ heh
Apr 06 18:37:45 kim_ just be online at 15:00 UTC :-)
Apr 06 18:37:49 kim_ what's that in EST?
Apr 06 18:37:55 kim_ around 11 am I think?
Apr 06 18:38:01 GofG Yeah
Apr 06 18:38:13 Sniperz11 UTC = GMT right??
Apr 06 18:38:27 kim_ UTC is the new name for GMT since the start of the century or so, yup
Apr 06 18:38:44 kim_ you can also check the current time in UTC by looking at the recent changes page
Apr 06 18:38:49 kim_ wikipedia time is UTC ;-)
Apr 06 18:38:53 Sniperz11 oh ok. thanks. thats 11 pm for me then
Apr 06 18:39:46 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
Apr 06 18:39:53 kim_ 11 pm?
Apr 06 18:40:07 kim_ you're somewhere east-ish?
Apr 06 18:40:11 Sniperz11 Singapore
Apr 06 18:40:16 kim_ if that's late for you we can shift the time back slightly
Apr 06 18:40:20 Sniperz11 nah...
Apr 06 18:40:25 kim_ I've been told Singapore is a nice place, la? :-)
Apr 06 18:40:26 Sniperz11 I'm usually awake nights
Apr 06 18:40:36 Sniperz11 its nice for tourists
Apr 06 18:40:38 * kim_ wants to visit a friend there soon . :-)
Apr 06 18:40:58 kim_ Sniperz11, are you any good at singlish? ;-)
Apr 06 18:41:15 Sniperz11 U've got a friend in me (which is the song i'm listening to now, coincidentally)
Apr 06 18:41:20 Sniperz11 i'm ok
Apr 06 18:41:21 kim_ LOL
Apr 06 18:41:23 kim_ cool :-)
Apr 06 18:41:27 Sniperz11 I can understand it a bit...
Apr 06 18:42:04 Sniperz11 mostly Hokkien (dialect of Chinese)
Apr 06 18:42:11 * ST47 has quit ("leaving")
Apr 06 18:42:12 kim_ I see
Apr 06 18:42:22 Sniperz11 and since i'm an expat, I dont usually speak it
Apr 06 18:42:33 kim_ Sniperz11, where are you expat from?
Apr 06 18:42:37 * kim_ is curious
Apr 06 18:42:39 Sniperz11 imagine an Indian guy trying to talk Singlish...
Apr 06 18:42:43 kim_ LOL
Apr 06 18:42:48 Sniperz11 I tried a few times,
Apr 06 18:42:53 kim_ I've heard of paki girls doing it, so why not indian guys? :-)
Apr 06 18:42:58 Sniperz11 the people around me couldn't stop laughing
Apr 06 18:43:01 kim_ ROTFL
Apr 06 18:43:05 kim_ isn't that the point? ;-)
Apr 06 18:43:12 Sniperz11 I guess so.
Apr 06 18:43:16 Sniperz11 :-D
Apr 06 18:43:22 kim_ depends on your accent a bit though, I suppose
Apr 06 18:43:28 Sniperz11 yes...
Apr 06 18:43:45 kim_ alright
Apr 06 18:43:48 Sniperz11 I roll my Rs a lot... and my O sounds like Wo...
Apr 06 18:43:52 Sniperz11 so you can imagine
Apr 06 18:43:59 kim_ I think I can!
Apr 06 18:44:07 kim_ alright
Apr 06 18:44:10 kim_ let's wrap it up
Apr 06 18:44:24 kim_ everyone back here same time same place next time around?
Apr 06 18:44:47 Sniperz11 sure
Apr 06 18:45:00 kim_ Cool
Apr 06 18:45:04 * kim_ pokes the rest
Apr 06 18:45:16 kim_ I think it's much more fun to edit-war over [[WP:IAR]] than doing lectures
Apr 06 18:45:30 kim_ I'll have to think of something crazy to draw more attention next time :-P
Apr 06 18:45:56 kim_ Have a nice lunch, evening, or afternoon all!
Apr 06 18:45:57 kim_ )
Apr 06 18:46:19 kim_ logs will be posted later today
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Apr 6 18:46:26 2008
