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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Apr 13 15:37:18 2008
Apr 13 15:37:18 * Now talking on #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 15:37:20 * Notify: sanna is online (kubrick.freenode.net).
Apr 13 15:37:20 * Notify: ideogram is online (kubrick.freenode.net).
Apr 13 15:37:20 * Notify: siebrand is online (kubrick.freenode.net).
Apr 13 15:37:57 SteveCrossin keya kim
Apr 13 15:38:07 xavexgoem Hey kim
Apr 13 15:38:23 * SteveCrossin beat xavexgoem to saying hello to kim :P
Apr 13 15:45:08 kim_ yay (?)
Apr 13 15:45:11 kim_ http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/
Apr 13 15:45:13 kim_ Oh dear...
Apr 13 15:48:26 SteveCrossin lol
Apr 13 15:49:31 xavexgoem kim_, quick question: is the purpose of medcab to foster consensus for the sake of the article or the sake of the editors? What has priority?
Apr 13 15:49:37 xavexgoem or mediation generally
Apr 13 15:50:09 kim_ heh
Apr 13 15:50:34 kim_ it is assumed that the editors have the quality of the article at heart? ;-)
Apr 13 15:51:10 xavexgoem 1/2ly
Apr 13 15:51:14 * kim_ says, tactfully
Apr 13 15:51:32 kim_ if they don't, you ahve 2 problems, not 1 ;-)
Apr 13 15:52:08 xavexgoem oh, it is, not is it...
Apr 13 15:52:38 xavexgoem Despite all that good talk on NPOV, V, and NOR . . . hmm
Apr 13 15:52:53 * xavexgoem thinks UNDUE is a massive beaning. Yes, Steve, I know I already said that :-p
Apr 13 15:55:45 kim_ beaning as in [[WP:BEANS]]? ;-)
Apr 13 15:55:49 xavexgoem yes
Apr 13 15:56:39 kim_ :-P
Apr 13 15:56:53 xavexgoem But it's a relevant question: what comes first, getting people to write properly, or get people to like each other? Or is the second kind of a crap shoot?
Apr 13 15:57:14 * xavexgoem doesn't know what he's talking about at all anymore
Apr 13 15:58:19 xavexgoem (per UNDUE & BEAN: wouldn't the community naturally assume a more global perspective? Doesn't undue interfere with this by making it a prerogative?)
Apr 13 15:58:42 xavexgoem dammit all if IRC isn't a great forum of rambling.
Apr 13 15:58:48 xavexgoem *for
Apr 13 16:00:23 xavexgoem UNDUE places too much weight on V, and V/RS is always iffy, and relies on how information funnels in from the outside. Status quote (due weight) becomes a function of what the media says, and not what people think. I guess is what I'm saying.
Apr 13 16:05:17 xavexgoem (quo, not quote)
Apr 13 16:06:19 xavexgoem And now: Queen Quaalude and the Fantastic Five-point-Five!
Apr 13 16:06:24 xavexgoem *audience cheers*
Apr 13 16:11:34 kim_ heh you're questioning the rules
Apr 13 16:11:36 kim_ that's good :)
Apr 13 16:11:44 xavexgoem yes. yes, I am.
Apr 13 16:11:52 kim_ why the media?
Apr 13 16:12:05 xavexgoem not necessarily the media, just sources in general
Apr 13 16:12:10 xavexgoem Ideally...
Apr 13 16:12:13 xavexgoem (warning)
Apr 13 16:12:19 kim_ don't for instance scientists on wikipedia generally consider peer reviewed journals to be their basic bread-and-butter?
Apr 13 16:12:31 kim_ peer reviewed journals is sort of an old fashioned way to do wikipedia
Apr 13 16:12:37 kim_ with a massive barrier to entry :-P
Apr 13 16:12:44 xavexgoem Ideally, wikipedia has enough folks on that consensus should gravitate towards the status quo regardless of media at any rate. I'm wondering if healthy conflict is in some ways good.
Apr 13 16:12:50 xavexgoem Peer reviewed is fine
Apr 13 16:12:57 xavexgoem But that's scientific before anything
Apr 13 16:13:05 kim_ is that wrong?
Apr 13 16:13:10 kim_ SPOV ~= NPOV
Apr 13 16:13:20 kim_ it's close enough... most of the time
Apr 13 16:13:31 kim_ I figure one day in future, some people will rail against NPOV
Apr 13 16:13:37 xavexgoem scientific peer-reviewed sources?
Apr 13 16:13:37 kim_ in the same way some rail against SPOV
Apr 13 16:13:38 xavexgoem No.
Apr 13 16:13:51 xavexgoem NPOV is fine. UNDUE, I think, is a problem.
Apr 13 16:14:19 kim_ at some point people will take NPOV to be authoritative... and then go like "but my <crank theory> is actuaklly right... NPOV is just a point of view"
Apr 13 16:14:28 kim_ "evolution is just a theory' ... we're sorta already there :-P{
Apr 13 16:14:33 * kim_ snickers
Apr 13 16:14:41 xavexgoem Right.
Apr 13 16:14:42 kim_ UNDUE is growing in prominence?
Apr 13 16:14:54 xavexgoem Hold on, distilling thoughts.
Apr 13 16:14:59 xavexgoem (yes)
Apr 13 16:15:18 xavexgoem Q1. Does consensus take priority over NPOV?
Apr 13 16:15:32 xavexgoem particularly if the pool is saturated
Apr 13 16:15:43 xavexgoem (which I suppose is part of the problem)
Apr 13 16:16:38 xavexgoem (i.e., fringe areas don't receive as much attention)
Apr 13 16:17:07 kim_ A1: ideally consensus == NPOV
Apr 13 16:17:33 kim_ A2: the idea is to get consensus on what IS NPOV... everyone is assumed to be aiming to make the encyclopedia NPOV :-)
Apr 13 16:17:51 xavexgoem Hmm... I don't understand my question, I think :-p
Apr 13 16:18:17 kim_ A3: people should be "writing for the enemy" ... so consensus should fall in between the crossed-over positions ...
Apr 13 16:18:34 * Seddon (n=chatzill@host86-143-124-153.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 16:18:36 xavexgoem that much makes sense
Apr 13 16:18:58 kim_ A4: when people "write for themselves" , NPOV should still be in the middle-ish.. which is also where consensus lives
Apr 13 16:19:04 kim_ but noe of these answers are perfect
Apr 13 16:19:05 xavexgoem meh, I'll try to expand on what I'm going for over time (I understood it exactly for 1 second yesterday :-p)
Apr 13 16:19:08 kim_ if I say 1+1=3
Apr 13 16:19:12 kim_ and you say 1+1=4
Apr 13 16:19:18 * xavexgoem listens
Apr 13 16:19:20 kim_ then the middle is 1+1=3.5
Apr 13 16:19:26 kim_ while the real answer is 2
Apr 13 16:19:27 kim_ ;-)
Apr 13 16:19:46 kim_ though this could be take as sample bias ;-)
Apr 13 16:19:52 kim_ taken as
Apr 13 16:19:58 kim_ perhaps if you ask enough people...
Apr 13 16:19:58 * SteveCrossin is now known as SteveCrossin3
Apr 13 16:20:06 xavexgoem Ok, what I mean is: consensus is ideally NPOV, because NPOV is an ideal consensus
Apr 13 16:20:17 kim_ yes
Apr 13 16:20:26 kim_ that sounds right
Apr 13 16:20:27 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 16:20:40 kim_ of course... now we enter the Real World (tm) ;-)
Apr 13 16:20:48 xavexgoem So why the instruction on undue weight?
Apr 13 16:22:55 kim_ to compensate for sample bias?
Apr 13 16:23:11 kim_ interested people tend to gravitate towards a subject area
Apr 13 16:23:17 kim_ but I haven't studied UNDUE extensively
Apr 13 16:23:53 xavexgoem (wracks head)
Apr 13 16:24:54 xavexgoem Yes, but both sides of a given argument for a subject area are going to gravitate anyway
Apr 13 16:25:49 xavexgoem I'm seeing an inherent problem in my argument, now, but it's limitation is how we structure ourselves here
Apr 13 16:26:02 xavexgoem So: nevermind :-p
Apr 13 16:26:14 xavexgoem So I can see why it's in NPOV
Apr 13 16:26:22 kim_ well
Apr 13 16:26:31 kim_ it'd be nice if you told the rest of us ;-)
Apr 13 16:26:57 xavexgoem I /might/ bring it up on WT:NPOV
Apr 13 16:29:54 xavexgoem It's hard to argue with the idea that there will be 20 people editing homeopathy for their point of view and 3 expert-withdrawalers against them will get anything done)
Apr 13 16:30:03 * xavexgoem shrinks noticably
Apr 13 16:30:09 xavexgoem 14:30! Yay!
Apr 13 16:33:22 * xavexgoem has quit ("Leaving.")
Apr 13 16:33:50 kim_ eek
Apr 13 16:33:57 kim_ I still need to work on the exercises
Apr 13 16:34:01 * kim_ has changed the topic to: test
Apr 13 16:34:08 kim_ I can change topic... that much is good
Apr 13 16:35:04 * Xavexgoem (n=Xavexgoe@adsl-75-17-209-129.dsl.euclwi.sbcglobal.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 16:46:57 kim_ looks like mostly medcab in here
Apr 13 16:47:03 kim_ would someone start inviting people?
Apr 13 16:47:35 Xavexgoem sure
Apr 13 16:50:42 kim_ coolness
Apr 13 17:00:40 kim_ it's time
Apr 13 17:00:46 kim_ like last time, no-one is here yet ;-)
Apr 13 17:01:29 kim_ seems par for the course
Apr 13 17:01:42 kim_ Xavexgoem, ahve you been doing the invitation thing already?
Apr 13 17:01:43 kim_ ^^;;
Apr 13 17:01:50 * kim_ is typing some text on-wiki
Apr 13 17:01:58 Xavexgoem kim_: yes
Apr 13 17:02:06 Xavexgoem but I didn't specify freenode. I hope they figure that bit out
Apr 13 17:02:56 * Sardanaphalus (n=chatzill@48.120-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:03:03 Xavexgoem well, it worked once :-D
Apr 13 17:03:06 Sardanaphalus hi!
Apr 13 17:03:07 * White_Cat_Zzz (i=EVA@wikimedia/White-Cat) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:03:14 Sardanaphalus thanks for reminder
Apr 13 17:03:57 Xavexgoem np
Apr 13 17:04:38 * Bob222 (n=Sprat@pool-71-179-92-109.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:04:49 Bob222 I am Filll
Apr 13 17:06:11 Sardanaphalus hi Bob
Apr 13 17:06:16 kim_ Hye bob, you're filll? ;-)
Apr 13 17:06:27 kim_ Heya ;-)
Apr 13 17:06:29 Bob222 Yes I am Filll
Apr 13 17:06:29 * Sardanaphalus has quit (Client Quit)
Apr 13 17:06:31 kim_ Ok, nearly done typing ...
Apr 13 17:06:37 Bob222 I barely know how to use IRC
Apr 13 17:06:41 Bob222 can I change my name?
Apr 13 17:06:46 Xavexgoem type /nick [name]
Apr 13 17:06:49 kim_ Filll: last time we noticed it took up to 30 minutes before everyone finally showed up
Apr 13 17:06:55 * Bob222 is now known as Filll
Apr 13 17:06:57 kim_ Bob222: type /nick Filll
Apr 13 17:07:00 kim_ right :-)
Apr 13 17:07:06 * Sardanaphalus (n=chatzill@48.120-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:07:07 Xavexgoem halfway done through "I think I already"'s
Apr 13 17:07:11 kim_ Xavexgoem, technically isn't it /nick <name> ? ;-)
Apr 13 17:07:14 Sardanaphalus oops sorry i hit close
Apr 13 17:07:23 * kim_ is a BNF-nazi
Apr 13 17:07:34 Xavexgoem meh :-p
Apr 13 17:07:43 Sardanaphalus backus-naur (sp?)
Apr 13 17:07:50 Sardanaphalus back us nao!
Apr 13 17:07:52 kim_ ayup
Apr 13 17:08:05 Sardanaphalus okay what's the topic
Apr 13 17:08:28 Xavexgoem uhh, 256 megs sucks atm
Apr 13 17:09:31 Sardanaphalus or is it free q&a?
Apr 13 17:10:12 * bob222 (n=Sprat@pool-71-179-92-109.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:11:02 * White_Cat has quit (Connection timed out)
Apr 13 17:11:54 Sardanaphalus is it my end or are things slow?
Apr 13 17:12:36 Xavexgoem ?
Apr 13 17:13:01 * Filll2 (n=Sprat@pool-71-179-92-109.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:13:03 Sardanaphalus nothing seems to be happening...?
Apr 13 17:13:19 Filll2 nope all quiet
Apr 13 17:13:24 Filll2 except i keep getting booted
Apr 13 17:13:31 * kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 17:13:33 kim_ Ok
Apr 13 17:13:35 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 17:13:40 kim_ everyone here?
Apr 13 17:13:47 kim_ I guess so
Apr 13 17:13:47 Xavexgoem got 'em all
Apr 13 17:14:03 Sardanaphalus okay i've opened the link
Apr 13 17:14:06 kim_ hey everyone, welcome to lecture 2, starting 15 minutes late ;-)
Apr 13 17:14:14 Sardanaphalus :-)
Apr 13 17:14:20 kim_ please read the link, and read through Filll's questions a bit
Apr 13 17:14:23 * kim_ bows to Filll
Apr 13 17:14:36 * [AGK] (n=[AGK]@wikipedia/AGK) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:14:36 kim_ thank you very much for making those questions, they're useful for all kinds of things!
Apr 13 17:14:37 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 17:14:41 kim_ hello AGK!
Apr 13 17:14:51 [AGK] Hello Kim ;) Sorry I'm late.
Apr 13 17:14:57 [AGK] Have we finished?
Apr 13 17:14:58 kim_ AGK : we were just looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 17:15:02 kim_ we've just started
Apr 13 17:15:07 [AGK] I'll take a look now, thanks.
Apr 13 17:15:15 kim_ it seems to be a law of physics that everyone shows up 30 minutes late
Apr 13 17:15:20 kim_ so we go slow for the first 30 ;-)
Apr 13 17:15:40 [AGK] Sensible =)
Apr 13 17:15:43 kim_ maybe something to do with the basic psyche of the typical wikipedian ;-)
Apr 13 17:15:54 kim_ we'll end at 17:00 UTC
Apr 13 17:15:56 Sardanaphalus okay, so are we meant to take Filll's challenge now, or just discuss it?
Apr 13 17:15:59 kim_ (2 hours from start time)
Apr 13 17:16:02 [AGK] Ah yes, Fill's challenge.
Apr 13 17:16:08 [AGK] I was just going to discuss that =)
Apr 13 17:16:15 [AGK] Well, advertise it :p
Apr 13 17:16:18 kim_ I was thinking of walking through a couple of questions of Fillls challenge
Apr 13 17:16:19 [AGK] Oh, Filll's here.
Apr 13 17:16:27 [AGK] Yeah, great idea, kim.
Apr 13 17:16:30 kim_ and I've also posted a method as to how I think we should do each question
Apr 13 17:16:32 Sardanaphalus okay kim, i like
Apr 13 17:16:36 kim_ well, more than "I think" :-P
Apr 13 17:16:54 * Sniperz11 (n=a@155.69.181.38) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:16:59 kim_ I've got some basic steps you can take to systematically be sure that what you're going to do will actually work ;-)
Apr 13 17:17:02 Sniperz11 aha...
Apr 13 17:17:05 kim_ of course, you can take the steps wrong
Apr 13 17:17:07 Sniperz11 I'm i too late??
Apr 13 17:17:10 kim_ but if you do it RIGHT ....
Apr 13 17:17:10 * White_Cat_Zzz is now known as White_Cat
Apr 13 17:17:20 kim_ Sniperz11, yes and no, we count on folks being half an hour late
Apr 13 17:17:26 kim_ start out by reading through ...
Apr 13 17:17:30 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 17:17:42 kim_ Sniperz11, so we take it easy the first half hour ;-)
Apr 13 17:17:51 Sniperz11 hehe... thx
Apr 13 17:17:53 kim_ Don't count on us counting on the half hour though :-P
Apr 13 17:18:13 * Qst (n=Qst@unaffiliated/qst) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:18:15 Sniperz11 I jus saw the message on my talk. Rushed here as fast as i could. :-)
Apr 13 17:18:15 kim_ so there be Filll's challenge
Apr 13 17:18:19 kim_ Cool
Apr 13 17:18:22 [AGK] I'm just getting folks to join.
Apr 13 17:18:22 kim_ Hello Qst
Apr 13 17:18:24 [AGK] Hello Qst!
Apr 13 17:18:27 kim_ AGK: heh!
Apr 13 17:18:40 Qst Hello :)
Apr 13 17:18:45 [AGK] kim_: Qst's wondering what the lecture's on.
Apr 13 17:18:49 kim_ QST: same to you : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions (it's in the channel topic) ... we start really talking in 10 more minutes or so
Apr 13 17:18:51 [AGK] Care to explain?
Apr 13 17:19:04 * Filll3 (n=Sprat@pool-71-179-92-109.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:19:06 kim_ AGK: lecture is about how to deal with complex wikipedia situations, while maintaining consensus
Apr 13 17:19:09 [AGK] kim_: skype would make this so much easier =)
Apr 13 17:19:11 kim_ Welcome again Filll3 :-)
Apr 13 17:19:17 Filll3 yes i am having trouble
Apr 13 17:19:19 Filll3 haha
Apr 13 17:19:21 kim_ AGK: but not everyone here has skype... do they?
Apr 13 17:19:26 Sniperz11 who here has skype??
Apr 13 17:19:29 Qst I wasn't planning on getting involved with the AGF challenge
Apr 13 17:19:31 kim_ show of hands?
Apr 13 17:19:31 Sniperz11 show of hands
Apr 13 17:19:34 Sardanaphalus i got a comment about one thing on the lecture2-questions page that could kick things off
Apr 13 17:19:35 Qst But I might, I'll see
Apr 13 17:19:40 Sardanaphalus skype? nope, sorry
Apr 13 17:19:44 kim_ Qst, that's ok... we're going to answer the questions together
Apr 13 17:19:46 * Seddon has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.13/2008031114]")
Apr 13 17:20:02 kim_ \The other problem with skype, AGK, is that we won't nescesarily have a log :-)
Apr 13 17:20:13 Sniperz11 record it...
Apr 13 17:20:17 [AGK] kim_: we can record, however.
Apr 13 17:20:18 Sniperz11 Wikipedia Weekly does that
Apr 13 17:20:24 kim_ Filll3, if you keep getting disconnected, that's ok... we'll keep a log
Apr 13 17:20:28 kim_ OH, that ROCKS!
Apr 13 17:20:33 kim_ we'd also need transcript ;-)
Apr 13 17:20:34 Xavexgoem I'm an excellent transcriptionist
Apr 13 17:20:43 Xavexgoem as in: I type fast :-p
Apr 13 17:20:47 kim_ AGK: ok, so one of the next lectures will be recorded... it's a deal!
Apr 13 17:20:48 [AGK] kim_: there you go ;)
Apr 13 17:20:48 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 17:20:52 Sardanaphalus also NotTheWikipediaWeekly
Apr 13 17:20:57 [AGK] the wikipedia weekly do transcripts =)
Apr 13 17:21:01 * Xavexgoem is an over-eager nit :-p
Apr 13 17:21:04 [AGK] kim_: great stuff ;)
Apr 13 17:21:13 [AGK] I'll chat with you on skype about the specifics afterwards.
Apr 13 17:21:17 kim_ Wicked!
Apr 13 17:21:20 kim_ alright
Apr 13 17:21:28 kim_ Sardanaphalus, well, go ahead and comment ...
Apr 13 17:22:04 Sardanaphalus well, i think it might be inviting trouble if you suggest already how you might compromise on something
Apr 13 17:22:15 kim_ and I might do some intro, then we'll attack a couple of the questions together (that's 10 minutes from now) .. and we end at 17:00 UTC ... I think that's a plan for today :-)
Apr 13 17:22:41 Sardanaphalus okay, hold on that comment then
Apr 13 17:22:51 kim_ Sardanaphalus, Sometimes yes, sometimes no, that's a judgement call/ variation you'll need to think about yourself
Apr 13 17:23:00 Xavexgoem Hey, if there are any folks who joined w/o going through WP:Lectures, can you add yourself to that?
Apr 13 17:23:01 [AGK] kim_: I need to pop off for a bit, I may miss some of the lecture.
Apr 13 17:23:08 [AGK] I'll keep idling, and read up afterwards.
Apr 13 17:23:10 kim_ but you do need to KNOW where you're going to compromise upfront
Apr 13 17:23:11 Xavexgoem (later, probably)
Apr 13 17:23:15 kim_ AGK: that's fine!
Apr 13 17:23:19 [AGK] kk ;)
Apr 13 17:23:21 Sardanaphalus yes i agree
Apr 13 17:23:23 * [AGK] is now known as [AGK|away]
Apr 13 17:23:45 kim_ so for each of Fillls questions... try to answer the lecture-2 page questions, so that you systematically get all sides covered :-)
Apr 13 17:23:49 * [AGK|away] just invited more people here.
Apr 13 17:23:56 kim_ yet more?
Apr 13 17:23:57 kim_ wow!
Apr 13 17:24:10 Xavexgoem kim_: on talk? or here?
Apr 13 17:24:18 kim_ Xavexgoem, what do you mean?
Apr 13 17:24:24 kim_ Xavexgoem, Oh no... I see
Apr 13 17:24:33 kim_ Xavexgoem, No I mean, we're going to do that together :-)
Apr 13 17:24:36 Xavexgoem kk
Apr 13 17:24:39 * Phoenix-wiki (n=Phoenix-@wikipedia/Phoenix-wiki) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:24:48 Phoenix-wiki lecture on what?
Apr 13 17:24:49 * Filll4 (n=Sprat@pool-71-179-92-109.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:24:59 Filll4 wow I am getting a big list
Apr 13 17:25:00 * Filll has quit (Connection timed out)
Apr 13 17:25:20 kim_ I suggest we discuss the arrow of time one, that sounds like my favorite kind of situation ;-)
Apr 13 17:25:27 * Texas_Patriot (n=Texas_Pa@c-98-201-24-174.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:25:31 Filll4 haha
Apr 13 17:25:33 Filll4 that is a good one
Apr 13 17:25:41 kim_ Hello Phoenix-wiki : we're doing lectures on how to be a member of the wikipedia cabal ;-) How to make friends and influence wikis :-)
Apr 13 17:25:42 Filll4 and based on a real situation of course
Apr 13 17:25:53 Phoenix-wiki ah, lol
Apr 13 17:26:03 Phoenix-wiki well that's easily done
Apr 13 17:26:08 Phoenix-wiki [[WP:COUNCIL]]
Apr 13 17:26:10 Phoenix-wiki join it
Apr 13 17:26:13 [AGK|away] :p
Apr 13 17:26:15 Phoenix-wiki it actually exists lol
Apr 13 17:26:20 Phoenix-wiki I'm a member
Apr 13 17:26:31 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, today we're going to do some exercises based on Filll's AGF challenge
Apr 13 17:26:37 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 17:26:40 Sardanaphalus i'm up for the arrow-of-time, i just read it
Apr 13 17:26:57 kim_ we'll be walking through some of them systematically
Apr 13 17:27:09 Qst I've said about this channel in ##Majorly, so hopefully we'll get more people
Apr 13 17:27:12 kim_ to see how we'd solve such cases on the wiki if they occur in real time ;-)
Apr 13 17:27:18 kim_ gee whiz!
Apr 13 17:27:27 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 17:27:39 Phoenix-wiki I have it ope
Apr 13 17:27:54 Phoenix-wiki HEAD INTO #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:27:57 Phoenix-wiki ALL IN
Apr 13 17:28:03 Phoenix-wiki oops
Apr 13 17:28:06 Phoenix-wiki wrong channel
Apr 13 17:28:13 Phoenix-wiki :-p
Apr 13 17:28:19 [AGK|away] :D
Apr 13 17:28:20 Sardanaphalus we have self-referential overload
Apr 13 17:28:29 kim_ ROTFL
Apr 13 17:28:31 * Not_the_NSA (n=R@wikipedia/R) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:28:35 [AGK|away] lulz
Apr 13 17:28:40 [AGK|away] Hey Not the NSA
Apr 13 17:28:43 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, maybe some folks might join your council idea :-)
Apr 13 17:29:04 Phoenix-wiki anyway, are we gonna start these question things?
Apr 13 17:29:07 kim_ Hello Not_the_NSA , this channel is logged, so even if you WERE the NSA, we wouldn't mind ;-)
Apr 13 17:29:17 * lucasbfr (n=nn@wikipedia/lucasbfr) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:29:20 Filll4 Nothing wrong with the NSA
Apr 13 17:29:21 Filll4 haha
Apr 13 17:29:21 kim_ Not_the_NSA, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 17:29:30 * kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions ... we'll be looking at the Arrow of Time problem first
Apr 13 17:29:36 kim_ Ok, stop inviting
Apr 13 17:29:37 * bob222 has quit (Connection timed out)
Apr 13 17:29:39 Not_the_NSA kim_: :D
Apr 13 17:29:47 * Not_the_NSA isn't interested
Apr 13 17:29:47 Not_the_NSA bye
Apr 13 17:29:53 kim_ Not_the_NSA, bye!
Apr 13 17:29:54 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 17:29:56 * Not_the_NSA (n=R@wikipedia/R) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures ("Impeach Bush! Clinton '08!")
Apr 13 17:29:57 Filll4 see you NSA
Apr 13 17:30:03 Sniperz11 whats the count to start of lecture??
Apr 13 17:30:11 kim_ we're starting now
Apr 13 17:30:17 Sniperz11 do i have enough time to reboot my comp??
Apr 13 17:30:23 kim_ and if more people get invited... It'll get too hard for me :-)
Apr 13 17:30:36 Sardanaphalus they'll know they're late, it's okay
Apr 13 17:30:49 kim_ well that, and too many people makes it hard to interact on irc :-)
Apr 13 17:30:57 kim_ I'd need +o and so
Apr 13 17:30:59 Phoenix-wiki start
Apr 13 17:31:05 kim_ ok, so let's look at the arrow of time question
Apr 13 17:31:17 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time
Apr 13 17:31:25 kim_ has everyone read that through?
Apr 13 17:31:37 kim_ So first up, what's your gut feeling about that?
Apr 13 17:31:48 kim_ (todays lecture is going to be interactive)
Apr 13 17:31:49 kim_ ;-)
Apr 13 17:31:50 * Alexfusco5 (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/alexfusco5) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:31:56 Xavexgoem Is that a legal threat? Or just a trolling?
Apr 13 17:32:00 Phoenix-wiki I'll read through
Apr 13 17:32:02 * Alexfusco5 (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/alexfusco5) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:32:02 Sardanaphalus the 47-edit guy isn't being reasonable
Apr 13 17:32:04 Xavexgoem I mean, it's not saying "I'm gonna sue you"
Apr 13 17:32:06 Texas_Patriot Read it.
Apr 13 17:32:34 Sardanaphalus Ps guy includes gals, sorry
Apr 13 17:33:32 Phoenix-wiki okay
Apr 13 17:33:38 Sardanaphalus the threat to sue is without foundation, surely
Apr 13 17:33:38 kim_ Xavexgoem, Right, legal threats are easy, just block 'em and point 'em to OTRS
Apr 13 17:33:45 Phoenix-wiki I'd have him blocked per [[WP:LEGAL]]
Apr 13 17:33:50 kim_ Sardanaphalus, is he saying he's suing though? read carefully
Apr 13 17:33:51 Sardanaphalus ah okay
Apr 13 17:33:52 Texas_Patriot He's making a statement threat of suing other editors & WP.
Apr 13 17:33:53 Texas_Patriot Block.
Apr 13 17:33:58 Sardanaphalus hold on, OTRS...?
Apr 13 17:34:06 * TDJACR|Away (n=TDJACR@Wikipedia/Thedjatclubrock) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:34:13 Phoenix-wiki and most of all, he's being the biggest [[m:DICK]] I've ever seen
Apr 13 17:34:17 * NotASpy (n=chatzill@wikimedia/Heligoland) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:34:24 kim_ so you'd just block him point-blank?
Apr 13 17:34:30 Phoenix-wiki blcok him per [[WP:LEGAL]]
Apr 13 17:34:32 Phoenix-wiki yeah
Apr 13 17:34:38 kim_ that would be pretty darn short
Apr 13 17:34:40 Phoenix-wiki well I can't
Apr 13 17:34:43 NotASpy lo kim_ and all
Apr 13 17:34:45 Phoenix-wiki but I'd post to ANI
Apr 13 17:34:49 kim_ Right
Apr 13 17:34:50 Xavexgoem How do you warn against semi-borderline-adjective-legal threats?
Apr 13 17:34:56 Phoenix-wiki and if I was an admin I'd ban him right off
Apr 13 17:34:57 * Xavexgoem wouldn't outright block
Apr 13 17:34:59 Sardanaphalus even if you're an admin, not incident-board post first?
Apr 13 17:35:03 Texas_Patriot If it wasn't for the legal threat, I'd open a mediation.
Apr 13 17:35:03 NotASpy who needs beaten with a stick now ?
Apr 13 17:35:05 SteveCrossin3 block block block block block block block block block block block block block v
Apr 13 17:35:07 * Filll2 has quit (Success)
Apr 13 17:35:11 Phoenix-wiki yeah I probably would go to ANI
Apr 13 17:35:12 kim_ I think Xavexgoem has the first clue ;-)
Apr 13 17:35:21 Sardanaphalus go on, please
Apr 13 17:35:24 SteveCrossin3 per WP:LEGAL = block
Apr 13 17:35:25 kim_ Xavexgoem is saying that he's not actually threatening to sue :-)
Apr 13 17:35:35 Xavexgoem 43 edits doesn't quite qualify as SPA yet, either
Apr 13 17:35:36 SteveCrossin3 and
Apr 13 17:35:39 kim_ NotASpy, see topic ;-)
Apr 13 17:35:39 Xavexgoem in my mind
Apr 13 17:35:39 SteveCrossin3 cos i say so :P
Apr 13 17:35:44 Sardanaphalus no threat: this is true
Apr 13 17:35:47 Phoenix-wiki "But, you are going to get WP and yourself sued if you continue to believe WP..."
Apr 13 17:35:56 Phoenix-wiki people have been blocked for less than that
Apr 13 17:35:59 Xavexgoem The first thing to do is to ignore that entirely
Apr 13 17:36:00 Sardanaphalus well, okay, veiled threat
Apr 13 17:36:01 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, they have?
Apr 13 17:36:03 Xavexgoem legal threats
Apr 13 17:36:07 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, I'd note a question there...
Apr 13 17:36:08 Phoenix-wiki yes
Apr 13 17:36:26 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, "are you actually threatening to sue? or do you mean that others MIGHT sue, when they learn of this?"
Apr 13 17:36:33 kim_ it might be [[WP:PANIC]] instead :-P
Apr 13 17:36:39 Texas_Patriot I've seen people blocked for it before.
Apr 13 17:36:47 Sardanaphalus the real problem tho is his/her apparent inability to communicate/collaborate earlier in the sotry
Apr 13 17:36:51 kim_ right
Apr 13 17:36:51 Phoenix-wiki he's technically saying others might sue, but it's a veiled threat
Apr 13 17:36:52 Sardanaphalus story
Apr 13 17:36:53 Texas_Patriot not sure if for less than that however. It does seem borderline.
Apr 13 17:36:57 kim_ okay
Apr 13 17:37:06 kim_ but we'd like to resolve the situation , if possible
Apr 13 17:37:11 NotASpy what's wrong with blocking the user, protecting their talk page, preventing them from sending e-mail and blacklisting from the unblock mailing list ?
Apr 13 17:37:12 Xavexgoem I'd drop him off at wikiquette
Apr 13 17:37:14 kim_ just block and run seems rather crude :-)
Apr 13 17:37:18 Sardanaphalus yes, i agree
Apr 13 17:37:20 Phoenix-wiki and he should have been blcoked for edit warring anyway
Apr 13 17:37:25 kim_ heh
Apr 13 17:37:27 kim_ GOOD LORD
Apr 13 17:37:32 kim_ you guys are all so darn violent!
Apr 13 17:37:33 kim_ ;-)
Apr 13 17:37:34 Sardanaphalus as non-admin, i feel the jump to block too quick
Apr 13 17:37:37 Phoenix-wiki NotASpy, that'd be a bit far
Apr 13 17:37:51 NotASpy surely not.
Apr 13 17:37:59 Phoenix-wiki well he is a pov pusher
Apr 13 17:38:06 Xavexgoem Maybe he has a place to contribute elsewhere?
Apr 13 17:38:07 kim_ NotASpy, posting a watch on their house, installing snipers, hacking the pentagon, and firing a nuclear strike? ;-)
Apr 13 17:38:12 kim_ Ok...
Apr 13 17:38:21 NotASpy kim_: yeah, you're getting the idea now. Jolly good.
Apr 13 17:38:26 Sardanaphalus i've had a less heavy-duty version of this not too long
Apr 13 17:38:30 Sardanaphalus ago
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Apr 13 17:38:48 kim_ well, that's the shortest question ever then
Apr 13 17:38:48 Filll back
Apr 13 17:38:51 kim_ now here's the thing
Apr 13 17:38:52 Filll haha
Apr 13 17:38:54 Phoenix-wiki if he'd been doign that for 2 weeks he would have been brought to ANI
Apr 13 17:38:55 kim_ say I sign you on to EA
Apr 13 17:38:56 Filll short is good
Apr 13 17:38:58 Phoenix-wiki and made to stop
Apr 13 17:39:04 kim_ and this guy comes to you and asks you to get him off... ;-)
Apr 13 17:39:07 kim_ or say you're a mediator
Apr 13 17:39:12 Filll I have some longer ones in the 2nd batch of exercises
Apr 13 17:39:17 Sardanaphalus wait, sorry, what is EA
Apr 13 17:39:23 kim_ Editor Assistence
Apr 13 17:39:25 Sardanaphalus not Electronic Arts i'm guessing
Apr 13 17:39:27 Sardanaphalus ah okay
Apr 13 17:39:33 Sardanaphalus thanks
Apr 13 17:39:37 kim_ you're supposed to help the editor write the wiki
Apr 13 17:39:46 Sardanaphalus ya
Apr 13 17:39:46 Phoenix-wiki yeah?
Apr 13 17:39:46 kim_ so this guy has been doing some stupid things
Apr 13 17:39:51 Sardanaphalus yup
Apr 13 17:39:52 Phoenix-wiki yeah?
Apr 13 17:39:58 Xavexgoem otoh, everyone is tolerating him.
Apr 13 17:40:04 kim_ but as their editor assistent, we now need to advise them how to get out of the sticky situation ;-)
Apr 13 17:40:10 Sardanaphalus but not tolerating him in an EFFECTIVe way
Apr 13 17:40:16 Xavexgoem Sard, yeah
Apr 13 17:40:23 Phoenix-wiki kim_, depends on the situation in question
Apr 13 17:40:39 kim_ Can we still prevent others from blocking him?
Apr 13 17:40:41 Sardanaphalus offer to help him/her get one of the refs needed
Apr 13 17:40:50 * kim_ says, making this challenge question a lot more challenging, suddenly :-)
Apr 13 17:40:57 Phoenix-wiki if I thought that he was a genuine editor who'd been a bit stupid, I'd probably get them out of trouble somehow
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Apr 13 17:41:08 NotASpy kim_: no, you're not supposed to help *the* editor help write the wiki, you're supposed to help *all* editors write the wiki, and if one or two people are getting in the way, they need to be sacrificed for the greater good.
Apr 13 17:41:14 Sardanaphalus yes, phoenix, that's where i am
Apr 13 17:41:27 Phoenix-wiki NotASpy, that's exactly my philosophy
Apr 13 17:41:28 Xavexgoem Huh? You can't help all editors. Unless you have a REALLY big room :-p
Apr 13 17:41:30 Sardanaphalus man that's raw, NotASpy!!
Apr 13 17:41:34 kim_ NotASpy, well, if you're EA, you're sort of supposed to try and help this one guy :-)
Apr 13 17:41:36 Phoenix-wiki Igorberger should be indef banned
Apr 13 17:41:36 Texas_Patriot According to WP:EA, its to help editors with understanding the wiki policy and editing.
Apr 13 17:41:43 kim_ NotASpy, you're an old-style wikipedian, I can tell ;-)
Apr 13 17:41:54 NotASpy being too heavy handed is bad, but being overly generous is equally as bad.
Apr 13 17:42:06 kim_ NotASpy, I agree... but can we try to help this guy?
Apr 13 17:42:13 Phoenix-wiki no
Apr 13 17:42:14 kim_ NotASpy, and see if they are truely a lost cause? :-)
Apr 13 17:42:15 Sardanaphalus the editor may have good stuff contribute if they can just get past being asked for sources
Apr 13 17:42:17 NotASpy who are we trying to help ?
Apr 13 17:42:21 Xavexgoem No?
Apr 13 17:42:28 Xavexgoem It's called the AGF challenge :-p
Apr 13 17:42:28 kim_ NotASpy, the 47-edits guy :-)
Apr 13 17:42:42 kim_ if everyone just assumes bad faith upfront
Apr 13 17:42:48 kim_ it's gonna be a very short session ;-)
Apr 13 17:42:59 * kim_ snickers
Apr 13 17:43:00 Phoenix-wiki email him to say that he should create a sock in a month and not get into trouble next time if he really watns to help, and not to tell anyone, including me who the sock is
Apr 13 17:43:06 Sardanaphalus assuming it's a topic i was into, i'd try to do one (just one) ref for them and seewhat they make of it
Apr 13 17:43:08 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, wow
Apr 13 17:43:17 Phoenix-wiki that's what they do anyway
Apr 13 17:43:18 kim_ alright
Apr 13 17:43:20 Xavexgoem ...
Apr 13 17:43:22 kim_ so that's your initial position
Apr 13 17:43:23 kim_ ;-)
Apr 13 17:43:31 kim_ that;s your gut feeling anyway ;-)
Apr 13 17:43:38 Sardanaphalus in other words, encourage them to do what people were asking for and what the encyclopedia needs
Apr 13 17:43:39 kim_ I think Sardanaphalus probably has the best approach
Apr 13 17:43:42 Phoenix-wiki socks get you out of trouble easily
Apr 13 17:43:43 Texas_Patriot Wikipedia:Assume stupidity
Apr 13 17:43:48 kim_ Alright
Apr 13 17:43:50 Phoenix-wiki you're even allowed to by policy
Apr 13 17:43:51 Texas_Patriot or WP:ASS
Apr 13 17:43:58 Texas_Patriot ;)
Apr 13 17:43:59 kim_ so we go with Sardanaphalus approach... that's just question 1 on the list though ;-)
Apr 13 17:44:02 kim_ the next question ...
Apr 13 17:44:05 Phoenix-wiki create a sock to "start again"
Apr 13 17:44:10 kim_ who is involved in this position
Apr 13 17:44:11 NotASpy no, you need to WP:Assume Good Faith but Expect Stupidity
Apr 13 17:44:15 Sardanaphalus but if they continue being obstructive, i guess the situation goes up a defcon
Apr 13 17:44:17 kim_ who is involved in this situation?
Apr 13 17:44:23 Texas_Patriot Good version NotASpy
Apr 13 17:44:25 kim_ Sardanaphalus, exactly
Apr 13 17:44:32 Sardanaphalus the arrow-of-time situation?
Apr 13 17:44:35 * kim_ pokes White_Cat -> can you give me a +O?
Apr 13 17:44:44 kim_ Sardanaphalus, yes :-)
Apr 13 17:44:49 kim_ Order Order!
Apr 13 17:45:01 Sardanaphalus theoretically the whole community, but i'm guessing you mean more directly
Apr 13 17:45:20 kim_ We're on "* who is involved" for the arrow of time situation (see topic for material for today)
Apr 13 17:45:27 Phoenix-wiki I think Guy agrees with NotASpy, btw
Apr 13 17:45:27 kim_ Sardanaphalus, yes
Apr 13 17:45:46 a which case are we talking about here?
Apr 13 17:45:48 Sardanaphalus okay, the 47-edit guy and the other editors on the talk page?
Apr 13 17:45:52 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, the sock plan might be a good backup plan, if Sardanaphalus plan doesn't quite work
Apr 13 17:45:53 Sardanaphalus the arrow-of-time
Apr 13 17:45:55 Xavexgoem "Arrow of Time"
Apr 13 17:45:56 kim_ Sardanaphalus, Ayup
Apr 13 17:46:06 Phoenix-wiki kim_, I've done it
Apr 13 17:46:12 kim_ Ok, so now "what needs to be attained" ?
Apr 13 17:46:14 Phoenix-wiki he wasn't in trouble
Apr 13 17:46:19 Phoenix-wiki wel he was
Apr 13 17:46:28 Xavexgoem Has he figured out refs yet?
Apr 13 17:46:32 Texas_Patriot I don't see an editor on editor conflict, it's a general community involvement. Since the quality of the article is in question from the statement being argued.
Apr 13 17:46:33 Phoenix-wiki everyone thought he was a stupid asshole
Apr 13 17:46:34 kim_ what needs to happen at Young Earth Creationism?
Apr 13 17:46:47 Phoenix-wiki so I told him to just create a new account and putthe stuff behind him
Apr 13 17:46:52 Phoenix-wiki the YEC needs banning
Apr 13 17:46:52 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, *nod*
Apr 13 17:46:59 Sardanaphalus a stable situation where 47-edit doesn't keep readding their stuff without foundation
Apr 13 17:47:13 kim_ does everyone agree with Sardanaphalus here? :-)
Apr 13 17:47:19 Sardanaphalus i do ;)
Apr 13 17:47:20 Phoenix-wiki the guy about the arrow of time needs blocking
Apr 13 17:47:21 Xavexgoem sure
Apr 13 17:47:43 Xavexgoem (Sure, Sard)
Apr 13 17:47:44 Sardanaphalus hey phoenix, maybe they haven't sussed wikiing yet
Apr 13 17:47:46 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, well, this is the young earth creationism article, I don't think we can ban the YEC's ... maybe the arrow guy, but we were AGF-ing ? :-P
Apr 13 17:47:51 Texas_Patriot Phoenix - Indef?
Apr 13 17:48:00 Phoenix-wiki no I mean just that guy
Apr 13 17:48:02 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, maybe
Apr 13 17:48:06 Phoenix-wiki yeah indef
Apr 13 17:48:13 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, can we solve the situation WITHOUT blocking that guy?
Apr 13 17:48:14 * bob222 (n=Sprat@c-68-32-123-22.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:48:19 Phoenix-wiki not really
Apr 13 17:48:22 Sardanaphalus i think it's possible
Apr 13 17:48:25 kim_ try to figure the LEAST invasive solution
Apr 13 17:48:28 Phoenix-wiki it would take time
Apr 13 17:48:29 Xavexgoem Can we operate under the assumption that this guy isn't totally unwhateverable?
Apr 13 17:48:30 Texas_Patriot The possibility is there, but most things are possible Kim.
Apr 13 17:48:30 Sardanaphalus it should at least be TRIED dammit
Apr 13 17:48:34 bob222 ok sorta back
Apr 13 17:48:35 Phoenix-wiki and effort
Apr 13 17:48:38 * bob222 is now known as Filll2
Apr 13 17:48:38 kim_ this is kinda important if you don't have admin tools in the first place ;-)
Apr 13 17:48:41 Phoenix-wiki which no one wants to waste
Apr 13 17:48:44 Filll2 oops
Apr 13 17:48:49 Texas_Patriot Depends on effort needed on one editor due to one small statement being the issue.
Apr 13 17:48:53 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, well, that's harsh
Apr 13 17:49:02 Phoenix-wiki that particul guy needs a block, though I'd bring it to ANI first
Apr 13 17:49:08 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, and that attitude causes all kinds of trouble down the line
Apr 13 17:49:08 Xavexgoem I wouldn't be wasting my time were I there...
Apr 13 17:49:12 kim_ So I see we ahve a problem
Apr 13 17:49:19 Sardanaphalus i'm finding people often come over far worse in typeface than they really are
Apr 13 17:49:19 Filll2 interesting how harsh people are
Apr 13 17:49:20 kim_ some people here do not WANT to Assume Good Faith upfront
Apr 13 17:49:23 Phoenix-wiki where has it caused trouble?
Apr 13 17:49:26 kim_ Phoenix wants to block
Apr 13 17:49:28 kim_ who else?
Apr 13 17:49:34 Sardanaphalus no, not yet
Apr 13 17:49:36 Filll2 i think
Apr 13 17:49:45 Phoenix-wiki no he has clearly demonstrated he is not acting in good faith
Apr 13 17:49:48 kim_ Filll, yes, they just stop at step 1, and aren't going to look further!
Apr 13 17:49:51 Sardanaphalus some people need more than 47 edits to get it
Apr 13 17:49:56 Phoenix-wiki if he says that WP could be sued
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Apr 13 17:50:08 Sardanaphalus melodrama?
Apr 13 17:50:10 Texas_Patriot Editors as well.
Apr 13 17:50:11 Xavexgoem Sard is right: 47 ain't much
Apr 13 17:50:12 Phoenix-wiki and he added that in 34 times in 2 weeks
Apr 13 17:50:19 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, come on, he's only made 47 edits!
Apr 13 17:50:29 a indef might be too harsh
Apr 13 17:50:30 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, maybe hes' just clueless! :-)
Apr 13 17:50:35 Phoenix-wiki yes but he's not acting in good faith
Apr 13 17:50:37 a a temp block is better IMO
Apr 13 17:50:38 kim_ a: and we're trying to be systematic
Apr 13 17:50:44 Sardanaphalus i agree 47-edits doesn't sound promising but more chance needed
Apr 13 17:50:46 kim_ but we're stuck at step 1 of the system
Apr 13 17:50:47 Xavexgoem lotsa people don't, Phoenix :-p
Apr 13 17:50:50 Texas_Patriot A: Why? We dont want to use cooldown blocks.
Apr 13 17:50:51 Phoenix-wiki no he'd have been warned millions of times in 2 weeks
Apr 13 17:50:58 Texas_Patriot 'cooldown'*
Apr 13 17:51:00 kim_ hehehe
Apr 13 17:51:02 kim_ OK!
Apr 13 17:51:04 kim_ ORDER!
Apr 13 17:51:11 Filll2 and what is interesting to me is that the people who complain that Wikipedia is too harsh....have little experience in controversial areas...and when they give their opinion on these AGF Challenge exercises...they are far more harsh than many experienced people
Apr 13 17:51:11 Filll2 The biggest complainers are often the least experienced and the most harsh
Apr 13 17:51:12 kim_ I'm going to try to use just my voice
Apr 13 17:51:24 kim_ rather than the chanop tools to keep the channel at order here ;-)
Apr 13 17:51:38 kim_ Filll2, extremely more harsh in fact
Apr 13 17:51:46 Phoenix-wiki Guy once said that I had "a bulletproof assumption of good faith"
Apr 13 17:51:50 kim_ I think "block him" is way too premature here
Apr 13 17:51:57 Filll2 yes it is interesting isnt it?
Apr 13 17:51:57 Phoenix-wiki no
Apr 13 17:52:01 Phoenix-wiki 2 weeks is a long time
Apr 13 17:52:06 Xavexgoem Also, assume stupidity not malice
Apr 13 17:52:15 Xavexgoem which is kind of a corollary, I guess
Apr 13 17:52:16 Filll2 I will not reveal what we did in practice yet
Apr 13 17:52:16 Filll2 haha
Apr 13 17:52:16 Filll2 all of these are based on real situations
Apr 13 17:52:18 Phoenix-wiki and he would have been brought to ANI already anyway
Apr 13 17:52:21 Sardanaphalus but 47-edits might not be a consistent regualr editor
Apr 13 17:52:23 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, well, the objective here... is not only to AGF on this dude's part
Apr 13 17:52:34 a the problem is that most newbies consider WP to be a graffiti wall rather than an encyclopedia
Apr 13 17:52:37 Filll2 I will wait until more have answered...then in a few weeks I will tell what we really did
Apr 13 17:52:40 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, but now that we all became EA members... we have to help him
Apr 13 17:52:47 * a is now known as Sniperz11
Apr 13 17:52:57 Sniperz11 and I suspect that this guy is the same...
Apr 13 17:52:59 Phoenix-wiki yes but it says he put in in 34 times in 2 weeks, he had to make 2 edits a day or he would have been blocked per 3 rr already
Apr 13 17:53:10 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, if it's any help, say you get to talk to the 47-edit dude on the phone, and he genuinely sounds like he wants to help out wikipedia, and is asking you what he's doing wrong? :-)
Apr 13 17:53:10 * Filll3 has quit (No route to host)
Apr 13 17:53:11 Sardanaphalus hmm okay
Apr 13 17:53:23 Phoenix-wiki in that case
Apr 13 17:53:28 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, 99% of the time when I've called someone, they turn out to be that way
Apr 13 17:53:35 Filll2 Many of these cases violate 3RR for days on end with no consequences
Apr 13 17:53:35 Filll2 because we try not to BITE
Apr 13 17:53:37 Phoenix-wiki tell him it's not sensible to mention sueing of the 'pedia
Apr 13 17:53:42 Phoenix-wiki and that things need references
Apr 13 17:53:49 Xavexgoem Do NOT tell him about sueing
Apr 13 17:53:56 kim_ Ok
Apr 13 17:54:25 kim_ alright
Apr 13 17:54:28 Phoenix-wiki Qst, I'd like to hear your opninion
Apr 13 17:54:37 kim_ right
Apr 13 17:54:41 kim_ just to be sure
Apr 13 17:54:46 Sardanaphalus the sueing stuff sounds so melodramatic (sp?) i'd just ignore (but not forget) it
Apr 13 17:54:53 Xavexgoem yeah
Apr 13 17:55:09 Phoenix-wiki do you guys read ANI much?
Apr 13 17:55:17 kim_ we're on step 1 "The action you would like to take , and a personal reason why you are in support of that action.", subquestion "what's your gut feeling"
Apr 13 17:55:18 kim_ :-P
Apr 13 17:55:18 Sardanaphalus must admit no
Apr 13 17:55:20 Phoenix-wiki have a look now
Apr 13 17:55:26 Qst Phoenix-wiki: On what, exactly?
Apr 13 17:55:26 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, not today thank you
Apr 13 17:55:28 Phoenix-wiki moso much fighting
Apr 13 17:55:30 kim_ we'd like to move along
Apr 13 17:55:37 Phoenix-wiki kk next question
Apr 13 17:55:38 * Filll4 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
Apr 13 17:55:39 Sardanaphalus okay, more Qst?
Apr 13 17:55:47 Qst More what?
Apr 13 17:55:48 kim_ ok # who is involved
Apr 13 17:55:56 Qst Sorry, I've been AFK and missed this
Apr 13 17:56:01 kim_ Sardanaphalus, already answered... some others need to catch up :-)
Apr 13 17:56:02 Sardanaphalus okay no prob
Apr 13 17:56:07 Phoenix-wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time
Apr 13 17:56:07 Sniperz11 this is too chaotic
Apr 13 17:56:10 kim_ RIGHT
Apr 13 17:56:11 Phoenix-wiki Qst, your opnion on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time
Apr 13 17:56:11 kim_ OK
Apr 13 17:56:19 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, quiet please
Apr 13 17:56:29 kim_ QUIET! :-)
Apr 13 17:56:31 Sniperz11 everyones talking together.. one at a time plz. Kim moderate plz.
Apr 13 17:56:32 kim_ Thank you :-)
Apr 13 17:56:37 kim_ Moderating now!
Apr 13 17:56:39 Sniperz11 thanks
Apr 13 17:56:45 kim_ Sniperz11, hush :-P
Apr 13 17:56:50 kim_ alright
Apr 13 17:57:02 kim_ so ... 1 answer per person ... who is involved in the Arrow of time case?
Apr 13 17:57:24 kim_ Sardanaphalus, you can just copy-paste your earlier answer ;-)
Apr 13 17:57:25 Filll2 Wow Qst is here
Apr 13 17:57:27 Xavexgoem A presumably salvagable character and a bunch of other tolerating folks
Apr 13 17:57:40 Phoenix-wiki can we do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules next?
Apr 13 17:57:57 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, yes... good plan, but first this step :-)
Apr 13 17:58:04 Phoenix-wiki kk
Apr 13 17:58:08 Qst Well, its probably best to explain to hi (again) that Wikipedia needs reliable references to back such claims up (more than one, if available) and that he cannot enter such theories which may be only his personal beliefs in to a fact-based encyclopedia
Apr 13 17:58:18 * Filll has quit (No route to host)
Apr 13 17:58:19 kim_ Ok, I think we got the answer from Xavexgoem ... anyone else have additions?
Apr 13 17:58:20 Sardanaphalus good idea, "the 47-edit guy and the other editors on the talk page"
Apr 13 17:58:30 Qst to him, sorry **
Apr 13 17:58:39 Texas_Patriot 47 Edit Editor, and the general community of people on the talk page who are active.
Apr 13 17:58:39 Phoenix-wiki yeah that cleared up, next part
Apr 13 17:58:40 kim_ Ok... I think that that's all we can surmise here
Apr 13 17:58:41 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 17:58:43 Sardanaphalus they are the active people involved anyway
Apr 13 17:58:46 Sardanaphalus okay
Apr 13 17:58:54 Qst What is the next part?
Apr 13 17:58:59 * Xavexgoem is now known as Xav
Apr 13 17:59:03 Phoenix-wiki Qst, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 17:59:05 kim_ so the next question : "# what needs to be attained"
Apr 13 17:59:20 kim_ what are we trying to have happen on the Young Earth Creationism page?
Apr 13 17:59:21 Sardanaphalus copypasting...
Apr 13 17:59:29 Phoenix-wiki we need it to become stable
Apr 13 17:59:31 Qst Do I tell the answers here?
Apr 13 17:59:32 kim_ one answer per person again... else it gets too crowded :-)
Apr 13 17:59:33 Xav Consensus is against his addition, even ref'd, so... That has to go
Apr 13 17:59:33 Phoenix-wiki nobody editing
Apr 13 17:59:36 Phoenix-wiki Qst, yes
Apr 13 17:59:37 * Filll (n=Sprat@c-68-32-123-22.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 17:59:42 kim_ Qst, we're doing answers here :-)
Apr 13 17:59:43 Sardanaphalus "a stable situation where 47-edit doesn't keep readding their stuff without foundation"
Apr 13 18:00:05 kim_ Ok
Apr 13 18:00:13 Phoenix-wiki everyon involved needs to stop editing the main page, and be ready to discuss things on the talk
Apr 13 18:00:22 kim_ Continuing on Xav: perhaps the 47 edit guy can add elsewhere (like at time cube? )
Apr 13 18:00:24 [AGK|away] Back, folks.
Apr 13 18:00:27 * [AGK|away] is now known as [AGK]
Apr 13 18:00:32 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, that's actually broken ...
Apr 13 18:00:36 Xav That'd be my suggestion
Apr 13 18:00:44 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, that's just procedure... what needs to HAPEN :-)
Apr 13 18:00:45 Xav But not Time Cube, per se
Apr 13 18:00:53 Phoenix-wiki that needs to happen
Apr 13 18:00:55 kim_ Xav, just someplace... to be determined?
Apr 13 18:01:03 Xav Ask what his interests are
Apr 13 18:01:07 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, no, then the page will be protected on the wrong version ;-)
Apr 13 18:01:12 Phoenix-wiki he neds to stop editing that page
Apr 13 18:01:16 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, that's all?
Apr 13 18:01:24 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, and what can he do instead?
Apr 13 18:01:33 Phoenix-wiki talk on talk page
Apr 13 18:01:34 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, so not everyone, just him?
Apr 13 18:01:35 Phoenix-wiki discuss
Apr 13 18:01:42 Phoenix-wiki everyone involved
Apr 13 18:01:44 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, maybe...
Apr 13 18:01:49 Sardanaphalus it might just be redirecting 47-edit's hevay-handed editing to another article, but try to interest him/her in a more time-related topic might work?
Apr 13 18:01:54 Xav that's prejudicial, imo
Apr 13 18:01:55 Phoenix-wiki some ip who wants to do a typo can still edit
Apr 13 18:01:58 Xav wouldn't make him happy at all
Apr 13 18:02:08 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, that's all very nice... but what must he ACHIEVE with discussion. discussion is not an objective, it's merely a means
Apr 13 18:02:16 Phoenix-wiki oh
Apr 13 18:02:33 Phoenix-wiki he needs to find reliable references for his info, or leave it out
Apr 13 18:02:36 kim_ Sardanaphalus, Possibly... maybe we need to teach him better editing? :-) Suggest 1 page? :-)
Apr 13 18:02:40 Phoenix-wiki and not mention sueing WP
Apr 13 18:02:50 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, that sounds like a plan
Apr 13 18:02:59 kim_ ok, so we now all have a bit of an idea what we'd like to achieve
Apr 13 18:03:17 Phoenix-wiki what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?
Apr 13 18:03:19 kim_ Next question: what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?
Apr 13 18:03:20 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:03:20 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:03:23 kim_ Exactly
Apr 13 18:03:25 Xav how important is it to get his edits out NOW? There's a chance he'll go at it, but edit warring over a single guy sounds bad. Maybe
Apr 13 18:03:27 Phoenix-wiki lol
Apr 13 18:03:28 kim_ one answer per person first :-)
Apr 13 18:03:30 Xav nvm
Apr 13 18:03:31 Xav heh
Apr 13 18:03:33 Phoenix-wiki what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?
Apr 13 18:03:35 Sardanaphalus peace, tranquility and accuracy
Apr 13 18:03:41 Xav ^^ him
Apr 13 18:03:45 kim_ Sardanaphalus, Right... now applied to this situation? :-)
Apr 13 18:03:51 Phoenix-wiki the best outcome is that his thing is left out if can;t find refs
Apr 13 18:03:53 Phoenix-wiki or
Apr 13 18:03:56 Phoenix-wiki if he can
Apr 13 18:04:07 Sardanaphalus 47-edit's stuff is either there with refs or left out, yes
Apr 13 18:04:13 Xav there are many best outcomes, too
Apr 13 18:04:19 Sniperz11 if we get him actively talking to the other editors, that will be a start
Apr 13 18:04:20 Phoenix-wiki then include it
Apr 13 18:04:23 Xav (well, good ones)
Apr 13 18:04:36 Sardanaphalus yes, decent refs
Apr 13 18:04:40 Sniperz11 the end result would be his understanding and agreement with WP:RS policy
Apr 13 18:04:45 Phoenix-wiki yes
Apr 13 18:04:48 Phoenix-wiki agreed
Apr 13 18:04:55 Phoenix-wiki next question
Apr 13 18:04:55 Sniperz11 once he agrees that RS is impt, problem solved
Apr 13 18:04:57 Xav applied: ask him what his interests are; ignore the edit war and uncited stuff atm
Apr 13 18:05:00 Sardanaphalus (another opportunity for trouble tho i guess
Apr 13 18:05:04 Xav append :-) [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 22:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC) at the end
Apr 13 18:05:11 Phoenix-wiki how can that outcome be attained?
Apr 13 18:05:13 kim_ Xav, :-P
Apr 13 18:05:16 Phoenix-wiki well
Apr 13 18:05:27 kim_ Xav, have you been stalking me? ;-)
Apr 13 18:05:37 Xav sorta
Apr 13 18:05:41 Xav but not really
Apr 13 18:05:45 Phoenix-wiki how can that outcome be attained?
Apr 13 18:05:52 * Texas_Patriot goes afk
Apr 13 18:05:55 kim_ Xav, :-P
Apr 13 18:05:56 Sardanaphalus even if the first step moves the problem from the stuff to how decent the refs might be, that's progress, no?
Apr 13 18:05:58 Xav just the :-) thing (all I learned was the hyphen is important)
Apr 13 18:06:09 Phoenix-wiki keep reverting him untill he confirms he's read RS and actually found refs
Apr 13 18:06:20 Phoenix-wiki agree?
Apr 13 18:06:23 Xav No.
Apr 13 18:06:23 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, Oh, you're totally mean... How about contacting him? ;-)
Apr 13 18:06:27 Sniperz11 it hasn't worked till now
Apr 13 18:06:29 Xav Reverting escalates the problem
Apr 13 18:06:35 Sardanaphalus agreed
Apr 13 18:06:36 Phoenix-wiki yes this would be while talking on the talk page
Apr 13 18:06:39 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, if you do that, I will report you for 3RR ;-)
Apr 13 18:06:45 Phoenix-wiki but he can't keep adding in
Apr 13 18:06:52 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, someone else breaking the rules doesn't excuse you doing the same :)
Apr 13 18:06:54 Phoenix-wiki he would reach 3 rr b4 me
Apr 13 18:07:06 Sardanaphalus hmm sounds like gaming the system thing
Apr 13 18:07:14 Phoenix-wiki and I would just get someoen from irc to revert for me when I reached 2
Apr 13 18:07:15 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, now you're gaming the system... which is covered somewhere, but probably will get you a site-ban in the end ;-)
Apr 13 18:07:44 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, and THAT would re-open the IRC RFAr if anyone ever found you out ;-)
Apr 13 18:07:46 Phoenix-wiki no stuff with no ref in contraversial topics can be removed
Apr 13 18:07:52 Phoenix-wiki with no fear of 3 rr
Apr 13 18:07:57 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, is that so?
Apr 13 18:08:05 Sardanaphalus phoenix, the dodgy text might need to stay there for a day or three while people try to communicate with 47-edit
Apr 13 18:08:11 Phoenix-wiki it happens routinely on Evolution
Apr 13 18:08:14 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, I thought that was only for BLP, and controversial at that :-P
Apr 13 18:08:16 Xav 3RR is a stop-gap against being being a dick, not against reverting dicks
Apr 13 18:08:23 Phoenix-wiki yeah it is
Apr 13 18:08:26 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, I see... that's not quite policy-compliant
Apr 13 18:08:26 Xav an m:Dick, sorry
Apr 13 18:08:28 Phoenix-wiki according to policy
Apr 13 18:08:36 Phoenix-wiki but noone blocks you for it
Apr 13 18:08:40 Phoenix-wiki even if it is against policy
Apr 13 18:08:41 Xav (I mean it works for all parties, regardless, no?)
Apr 13 18:08:42 Phoenix-wiki IAR
Apr 13 18:08:45 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, interesting... ;-)
Apr 13 18:08:47 Phoenix-wiki you're helping the encyclopedia
Apr 13 18:08:49 Sardanaphalus cmon all this is beside the point if 47-edit doesn't get a breaktrhough
Apr 13 18:09:05 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, still, that's very dirty... ;-)
Apr 13 18:09:06 Xav we haven't even gotten to the point where we discuss how he gets a breakthrough (or have we?)
Apr 13 18:09:10 Phoenix-wiki Xav, am a dick
Apr 13 18:09:17 Phoenix-wiki I am a dick*
Apr 13 18:09:23 Phoenix-wiki according to that essay
Apr 13 18:09:26 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, being a dick is against policy ;-)
Apr 13 18:09:40 Phoenix-wiki then most of us would be indef banned
Apr 13 18:09:41 * kim_ pokes out tongue ;-)
Apr 13 18:09:43 Xav I wasn't implying anything personal :-)
Apr 13 18:09:46 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, possibly true!
Apr 13 18:09:50 Phoenix-wiki no
Apr 13 18:09:51 Sardanaphalus 47-edit might not genuinely think they're being a dick
Apr 13 18:09:58 Phoenix-wiki Xav I'm just saying, soz
Apr 13 18:09:59 kim_ Right
Apr 13 18:09:59 Xav right
Apr 13 18:10:05 kim_ Ok, carrying on ...
Apr 13 18:10:09 Phoenix-wiki yes but you'd be talking to them on the talk page
Apr 13 18:10:21 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, I'd e-mail them, actually, :-)
Apr 13 18:10:27 Sniperz11 most newbies just think that WP is a nice wall to put graffiti on, and 47E seems like that....
Apr 13 18:10:30 Sardanaphalus the point is, we need 47-edit to sign up to the wiki way of thinking
Apr 13 18:10:33 * Texas_Patriot is back
Apr 13 18:10:35 Phoenix-wiki and the best thing to do would to get them to stop untill they find refs
Apr 13 18:10:37 kim_ Sniperz11, so we need to explain :-)
Apr 13 18:10:46 Xav Sniperz11: and that's a bad culture, and we can fix that!
Apr 13 18:10:48 kim_ Sardanaphalus, sounds like you've had some experience mediating eh?
Apr 13 18:11:03 Sardanaphalus it's no good if we go to 47-edit ASSUMING they're okay with it
Apr 13 18:11:11 Sardanaphalus kim> in real world, sometimes
Apr 13 18:11:21 Phoenix-wiki I've done loads of medcab
Apr 13 18:11:23 kim_ Sardanaphalus, that's much harder than on-wiki. cool :-)
Apr 13 18:11:38 Sardanaphalus heh i didn't say how successful
Apr 13 18:11:41 Phoenix-wiki only 1 went past me
Apr 13 18:11:47 Phoenix-wiki like, to medcom
Apr 13 18:11:48 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, wow, so I'll ask vassayana to watch you some more :-)
Apr 13 18:11:54 Phoenix-wiki lol
Apr 13 18:12:07 Phoenix-wiki but that case is absurd
Apr 13 18:12:12 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, Possibly you're doing ok, but you're way harsh man. ;-)
Apr 13 18:12:35 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, it really happened, apparently (with names and details altered to protect the <s>guilty</s> innocent )
Apr 13 18:12:49 Phoenix-wiki listen, if he re-added 34 times, despite everyone explaining to him on the talk page he isn't acting in good fait
Apr 13 18:12:58 kim_ alright, we're coming up on halt-time, so let's move along ;-)
Apr 13 18:13:01 Xav He might not have even SEEN WP:AGF
Apr 13 18:13:08 Xav 47 is nuthin'
Apr 13 18:13:12 Sardanaphalus i guess it depends how exactly the message didnt get through 34 times
Apr 13 18:13:17 Phoenix-wiki yes but people would no doubt have linked him to it
Apr 13 18:13:21 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, need to contact him directly then ;-)
Apr 13 18:13:29 Phoenix-wiki I was discussing stuff on the VP as my first edit
Apr 13 18:13:43 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, you're superman then ;-)
Apr 13 18:13:44 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:13:51 Phoenix-wiki no pleanty of people have
Apr 13 18:13:56 kim_ True...
Apr 13 18:13:59 kim_ anyway... moving along
Apr 13 18:14:04 * Phoenix-wiki saw someone who'd never left a back edit summary
Apr 13 18:14:05 kim_ let's see what we can salvage :-)
Apr 13 18:14:20 Qst Anyone using Skype here?
Apr 13 18:14:21 kim_ so what needs to be done for us to reverse our position ...
Apr 13 18:14:32 Sniperz11 2 things - 1) he's actually talking, rather than simply silently editing, 2) only 47 edits - he's a newbie and 3) Its obvious he doesn't know WP policies
Apr 13 18:14:34 kim_ Qst, lots are... possibly a future lecture will be on voice on skype
Apr 13 18:14:42 Sniperz11 I'm on skype
Apr 13 18:14:46 Sardanaphalus how about one of those "noone can edit this article for N days" padlocks
Apr 13 18:14:52 kim_ Sniperz11, where people are talking, there's always hope!
Apr 13 18:14:57 kim_ Sardanaphalus, I hate those :-P
Apr 13 18:14:58 Sardanaphalus then 47-edit is with everyone else on talkpage
Apr 13 18:15:05 Sardanaphalus oh okay
Apr 13 18:15:16 Phoenix-wiki Sniperz47, he's been here 2 weeks, and has replied 13 times on the talk page, he would have been pointed ot the policies
Apr 13 18:15:16 kim_ Sardanaphalus, it might help, or it might turn the talk apge into a pressure-stove
Apr 13 18:15:18 Xav Sard: the problem is everyone else who wants to contribute, and 47-edit will know exactly why it's locked, and might escalate
Apr 13 18:15:20 Sardanaphalus i can imagine, i'm not sying i'm keen on them
Apr 13 18:15:27 Sardanaphalus okay, i see
Apr 13 18:15:29 kim_ what I'd do is ask 47-edit dude to not edit for a bit and talk with me first :-)
Apr 13 18:15:30 Sardanaphalus good point
Apr 13 18:15:46 kim_ possibly they would :-)
Apr 13 18:15:48 kim_ alright
Apr 13 18:15:58 kim_ so we're currently all agf
Apr 13 18:16:08 kim_ we'll ask others to be nice to 47-dude as well (I missed that)
Apr 13 18:16:12 kim_ and we talk with him first...
Apr 13 18:16:16 Xav You could do something strange, like get a bunch of good faith folks to concoct a message on his talk page, trying to move things there
Apr 13 18:16:22 kim_ so what would need to be said or done to reverse that position
Apr 13 18:16:24 Phoenix-wiki and the first thing you see when you create an account is "There's no need to worry about the policies, if it helps improe the encyclopedia it's okay", he knows full well he's not helping by readding it when people want to discuss it with him
Apr 13 18:16:24 Xav but that's me thinking out loud.
Apr 13 18:16:39 Phoenix-wiki the first few times, that's okay
Apr 13 18:16:44 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, that's what we explain to him ;-)
Apr 13 18:16:45 Xav does he understand why discussion is important on WP?
Apr 13 18:16:46 Phoenix-wiki but 32 times over 2 weeks?
Apr 13 18:17:05 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, right, so you get to answer why we would change our position ...
Apr 13 18:17:21 Phoenix-wiki and if he did it exactly twice a day, that implies he's familier with 3RR
Apr 13 18:17:28 Sardanaphalus yes, i remember thinking when i first saw the "Ignore all rules" page soon after getting into wikipedia how it could backfire
Apr 13 18:17:31 Phoenix-wiki and he's gaming the system
Apr 13 18:17:43 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, dude, DONE... we're at question 2 now :-)
Apr 13 18:17:50 Phoenix-wiki oh
Apr 13 18:18:13 Sardanaphalus "What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise"
Apr 13 18:18:13 Xav (2. What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise)
Apr 13 18:18:16 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, if someone keeps talking about question 1a all the time, despite the channel moderator continuously telling him to move on. Is that obviously bad faith?
Apr 13 18:18:17 Sardanaphalus hehe
Apr 13 18:18:17 Xav jinx
Apr 13 18:18:28 Phoenix-wiki no
Apr 13 18:18:36 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, just stupidity, right?
Apr 13 18:18:41 Phoenix-wiki yes
Apr 13 18:18:46 Sardanaphalus anyway, is it okay to go onto 2. now?
Apr 13 18:18:48 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, glad we agree :-)
Apr 13 18:18:55 kim_ Sardanaphalus, C
Apr 13 18:18:58 kim_ kay :-)
Apr 13 18:19:11 Phoenix-wiki [17:19] *ChanServ* The channel [#wikipedia-en-lectures] is not registered ???
Apr 13 18:19:13 * Filll has quit (Connection timed out)
Apr 13 18:19:18 Phoenix-wiki wwhy not?
Apr 13 18:19:29 Sardanaphalus so, by reverse, does that mean let 47-edit go on with their behavior??
Apr 13 18:19:31 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, next time.
Apr 13 18:19:42 Phoenix-wiki no
Apr 13 18:19:43 kim_ Sardanaphalus, By reverse, I think we mean that we should block 47-edit anyway
Apr 13 18:20:00 Sardanaphalus i'll read that bit again
Apr 13 18:20:08 kim_ Sardanaphalus, well, they're generic questions...
Apr 13 18:20:09 Xav Does he understand what he's doing wrong?
Apr 13 18:20:14 Phoenix-wiki yes
Apr 13 18:20:18 Phoenix-wiki he clearly does
Apr 13 18:20:19 kim_ Xav, we'll need to ask him :-)
Apr 13 18:20:21 Xav I'm not convinced
Apr 13 18:20:27 Phoenix-wiki so I don't think anyone can change my position
Apr 13 18:20:34 kim_ Xav, that's covered in the mediator approach at the bottom
Apr 13 18:20:44 Sardanaphalus okay, if your position = block, what would change your mind - is that theq?
Apr 13 18:20:45 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, ever?
Apr 13 18:20:53 Xav I'm confused by mediator approach, it says talk page and stuff. I'm wondering if you meant mediators here should participate differently, or what?
Apr 13 18:21:02 Phoenix-wiki kim_, possibly
Apr 13 18:21:07 kim_ Sardanaphalus, more like if your position is help him (which should be your initial position as a mediator or EA role anyway)
Apr 13 18:21:18 Xav Phoenix-wiki, can you beyond reasonable doubt assume he Will. Not. Change?
Apr 13 18:21:20 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, you would be un-mediatable then
Apr 13 18:21:44 kim_ Sardanaphalus, what'd convince you to block
Apr 13 18:21:54 kim_ or in the case of phoenix, what would convince him not to
Apr 13 18:21:55 Sardanaphalus well i guess i would change my mind if i and people had tried some more-than-usual ways to get thru but no joy
Apr 13 18:22:05 Sardanaphalus um if that makes sense
Apr 13 18:22:07 Phoenix-wiki Xav, who?
Apr 13 18:22:14 kim_ Sardanaphalus, it does
Apr 13 18:22:17 Phoenix-wiki I thought change *my* position?
Apr 13 18:22:33 Xav 47-edit
Apr 13 18:22:37 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, you need to know when to hold'em and when to fold 'em and when to walk away
Apr 13 18:22:43 Sardanaphalus the question's relative, phoenix, that's what i misunderstood
Apr 13 18:22:46 * Phoenix-wiki plays poker a lot
Apr 13 18:22:53 Sardanaphalus flop
Apr 13 18:23:04 Phoenix-wiki oh what he needs to do
Apr 13 18:23:05 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, so when would you do the latter? :-)
Apr 13 18:23:06 Phoenix-wiki oh
Apr 13 18:23:09 Xav we're not even at river
Apr 13 18:23:10 Phoenix-wiki if he finds referenes
Apr 13 18:23:20 Phoenix-wiki if he fids references, that's okay then
Apr 13 18:23:23 Phoenix-wiki finds*
Apr 13 18:23:24 kim_ Ok!
Apr 13 18:23:27 kim_ next question
Apr 13 18:23:36 Sniperz11 thank you!!
Apr 13 18:23:48 kim_ why do you think your position will gain consensus?
Apr 13 18:23:49 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:24:01 kim_ or why should others agree with your position
Apr 13 18:24:06 Sardanaphalus because it AGF!!
Apr 13 18:24:07 kim_ 1 answer per person again, I guess :-)
Apr 13 18:24:08 Xav They apparently already do
Apr 13 18:24:13 Phoenix-wiki because it's complying with policies and benifitting the 'pedia the most
Apr 13 18:24:16 kim_ heh, that's easy then
Apr 13 18:24:21 Sardanaphalus ya
Apr 13 18:24:45 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, that's not a complete answer. once again.. complying with policies and benefitting wikipedia are a means, but what's the goal?
Apr 13 18:25:02 kim_ well benefitting wikipedia is a goal, but that's too general
Apr 13 18:25:05 kim_ can you be more specific?
Apr 13 18:25:18 Sardanaphalus mine is a bit too vague then too
Apr 13 18:25:21 kim_ Sardanaphalus, merely AGF might not be enough too... :-)
Apr 13 18:25:24 kim_ *nod*
Apr 13 18:25:32 Phoenix-wiki I've made the article as accurate as it can be
Apr 13 18:25:44 Phoenix-wiki by removing unreferenced material
Apr 13 18:25:56 Xav I thought he referenced it?
Apr 13 18:25:58 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, fair enough. Can you also help others become better at editing with your approach?
Apr 13 18:26:00 Sardanaphalus hmm why isn't Phoenix's answer enough?
Apr 13 18:26:04 Phoenix-wiki and I've also informed the user of various policies on the talk page
Apr 13 18:26:13 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, so you've educated them
Apr 13 18:26:16 Sardanaphalus oh okay, i get it
Apr 13 18:26:18 Phoenix-wiki yes
Apr 13 18:26:21 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, did you tell them WHY the policies apply?
Apr 13 18:26:22 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:26:26 kim_ Phoenix-wiki, do you think they get it?
Apr 13 18:26:32 Phoenix-wiki yes
Apr 13 18:26:35 kim_ those are questions to ask when you try to educate someone :-)
Apr 13 18:26:40 kim_ fair enough
Apr 13 18:26:48 Sardanaphalus are u usually an educator, kim?
Apr 13 18:27:06 kim_ Sardanaphalus, mediator-type-person... what's the difference ;-)
Apr 13 18:27:10 kim_ on-wiki anway :-)
Apr 13 18:27:13 Sardanaphalus indeed
Apr 13 18:27:18 Phoenix-wiki next question?
Apr 13 18:27:19 kim_ ok
Apr 13 18:27:32 kim_ so when would the community back away from that position?
Apr 13 18:27:42 Phoenix-wiki back away from it?
Apr 13 18:27:45 Xav He could go on with the legal threats
Apr 13 18:27:47 kim_ like they would support you
Apr 13 18:27:52 kim_ but what would make them change their minds?
Apr 13 18:27:53 Sardanaphalus specify the position to discuss pls
Apr 13 18:27:54 Phoenix-wiki oh
Apr 13 18:28:10 kim_ Sardanaphalus, the one you formulated above... why would they support you?
Apr 13 18:28:17 Sardanaphalus okay..
Apr 13 18:28:21 Phoenix-wiki well I've made the article as accurate as it can be, and instructed a user on various policies
Apr 13 18:28:32 Phoenix-wiki they would agree with this
Apr 13 18:28:34 * Filll (n=Sprat@pool-71-179-92-109.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 18:28:37 Xav (3 or 4?)
Apr 13 18:28:46 Filll back
Apr 13 18:28:47 kim_ Sardanaphalus, it's symmetrical ... what do you want to do and why <-> when would you drop that position ... what does the community want and why <-> when would they drop it
Apr 13 18:28:48 Filll haha
Apr 13 18:28:51 kim_ Xav, we're at 4
Apr 13 18:28:56 kim_ wb Filll
Apr 13 18:29:05 Filll good thing you are going to keep a record
Apr 13 18:29:06 * Filll2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Apr 13 18:29:12 Filll i can see what I missed
Apr 13 18:29:17 Sardanaphalus i guess the community would support whichever approach it thought would leave the best test intact
Apr 13 18:29:25 Sardanaphalus text*
Apr 13 18:29:26 kim_ best text
Apr 13 18:29:30 Sardanaphalus yup
Apr 13 18:29:32 Phoenix-wiki yes
Apr 13 18:29:38 kim_ so basically if our friend showed up with refs, they'd go one way
Apr 13 18:29:42 Phoenix-wiki and the best text is the referenced text
Apr 13 18:29:46 Sardanaphalus with bonus of bringing someone like 47-edit on board
Apr 13 18:29:46 kim_ and if he didn't show up with refs... they'd go the other way
Apr 13 18:29:51 Phoenix-wiki yeah
Apr 13 18:29:55 kim_ Sardanaphalus, You're on the ball ;-)
Apr 13 18:29:58 kim_ Ok
Apr 13 18:30:07 Sardanaphalus yay
Apr 13 18:30:14 kim_ so we can't really do the mediator role here
Apr 13 18:30:15 Phoenix-wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules ext
Apr 13 18:30:26 kim_ we've answered all the questions
Apr 13 18:30:31 kim_ now we actually do the doing bit
Apr 13 18:30:32 Sardanaphalus dammit, i suddenly remembered, i gotta go, it's half past
Apr 13 18:30:36 Sniperz11 of course, the question when he does bring refs will turn to RS
Apr 13 18:30:40 Phoenix-wiki 5:30
Apr 13 18:30:46 kim_ could each of you list the talk page statement you'd make?
Apr 13 18:30:47 kim_ Yup
Apr 13 18:30:52 kim_ 30 minutes for next one
Apr 13 18:30:58 Sardanaphalus i'll read the transcript to see what happens
Apr 13 18:30:59 kim_ Sardanaphalus, Ok, have a nice day! Nice to have you!
Apr 13 18:31:06 Xav Cya Sard
Apr 13 18:31:07 Sardanaphalus thanks, it was interesting, bye!!
Apr 13 18:31:09 Xav anaphalus
Apr 13 18:31:10 kim_ If you are an admin, or BOLD editor, or what have you...
Apr 13 18:31:10 kim_ * write on the talk page:
Apr 13 18:31:13 * Sardanaphalus has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.13/2008031114]")
Apr 13 18:31:22 kim_ basically formulate on the talk page
Apr 13 18:31:28 Xav the hypothetical talk page, or the actual one? :-p
Apr 13 18:31:36 kim_ Xav, hypotehtical! ;-)
Apr 13 18:31:59 kim_ we've answered the 4 questions for ourselves, now we need to state them on talk
Apr 13 18:32:04 Xav that'd be a lot of threads, though. What do you mean what should I say?
Apr 13 18:32:08 kim_ that's where the tire-hits the road
Apr 13 18:32:11 Xav (that'd work on iRC)
Apr 13 18:32:23 kim_ yeah we're taking several steps
Apr 13 18:32:30 Xav oh
Apr 13 18:32:35 kim_ Xav, just paraphrase then :-)
Apr 13 18:32:39 kim_ hmmm
Apr 13 18:32:59 Phoenix-wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Phoenix-wiki&diff=prev&oldid=205155232
Apr 13 18:33:01 Xav So we've gone through the scenario... you want me to innact it?
Apr 13 18:33:44 Texas_Patriot Oh natural Phoenix.
Apr 13 18:33:55 Xav 47: Grr! Rawr! Other people: Sorry we reverted you :-( 47: Law suits, but not really! Other people: Umm...
Apr 13 18:34:01 kim_ "I'd like to invite User:47editdude to stop editing here and talk with me first ... unless he does something really crazy ... I think other people will support that, so they can get on with editing, and we'll try to solve User47's problems separately. If 47dude keeps making trouble, of course I'd support banning"
Apr 13 18:34:03 kim_ something like that?
Apr 13 18:34:04 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:34:22 kim_ alright
Apr 13 18:34:31 kim_ I'm going to get some tea, and then next scenario :-)
Apr 13 18:34:35 Phoenix-wiki quit
Apr 13 18:34:37 * Xav thinks
Apr 13 18:34:42 * Phoenix-wiki has quit ("Connection not reset by Peer - http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Peer")
Apr 13 18:35:09 kim_ Poor Phoenix... that sucks ^^;;
Apr 13 18:35:23 kim_ Ok
Apr 13 18:35:41 Xav And I have no context! This is hard...
Apr 13 18:35:46 Xav ...as a mediator
Apr 13 18:36:14 * kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions ... Next scenario ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules
Apr 13 18:36:18 Xav Vernacular can be soo important.
Apr 13 18:36:22 kim_ does everyone agree with that one?
Apr 13 18:36:26 Filll ah yes
Apr 13 18:36:30 Filll that is a good one
Apr 13 18:36:42 kim_ Ok, 5 minute break , then we continue on that
Apr 13 18:36:46 * kim_ needs 5 minutes :-P
Apr 13 18:36:46 Filll the person that is about recognized the exercise I think
Apr 13 18:36:48 Filll he is annoyed at me for making him an exercise
Apr 13 18:36:56 kim_ Filll, poor guy!
Apr 13 18:37:00 Filll oh wel
Apr 13 18:37:01 Filll haha
Apr 13 18:37:06 Filll it was like 2 years ago
Apr 13 18:37:22 * Xav thinks he knows who this guy is, but 2 year comment means probably not
Apr 13 18:37:35 Xav I like it
Apr 13 18:37:37 Xav scenario
Apr 13 18:38:16 Filll i wont reveal it..at least not yet...and not in public probably
Apr 13 18:38:20 Filll i dont wanna embarass him
Apr 13 18:38:25 Xav Can someone decide unilaterally? No.
Apr 13 18:38:29 Filll but it really happened
Apr 13 18:38:46 Filll and he welcomed everyone new with his own welcoming message and own policies
Apr 13 18:38:54 Filll which were not the same as the regular policies
Apr 13 18:38:54 Filll haha
Apr 13 18:38:55 Xav Erm... I'd probably let the horde take care of his revisions :-p
Apr 13 18:39:15 Filll his revised policies still exist
Apr 13 18:39:20 kim_ Filll, Cool!
Apr 13 18:39:20 Filll and you can still read them
Apr 13 18:39:22 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:39:26 kim_ I might want to ;-)
Apr 13 18:39:27 Filll they are off wiki now though
Apr 13 18:39:37 kim_ they should have remained in the public record
Apr 13 18:39:37 Sniperz11 were they atleast halfway sane??
Apr 13 18:39:50 Filll I would have to look them up
Apr 13 18:39:56 kim_ fair deal
Apr 13 18:39:56 Xav Ooh, were these "policies" in userspace or something?
Apr 13 18:39:59 kim_ ok
Apr 13 18:40:04 * kim_ takes a deep breath
Apr 13 18:40:05 Filll but they are at the Raymond arritt expert withdrawal pages as a link
Apr 13 18:40:07 kim_ 20 more minutes
Apr 13 18:40:12 Filll but you have to look at a lot of material to find it
Apr 13 18:40:14 kim_ and we're done for the day
Apr 13 18:40:16 kim_ alright
Apr 13 18:40:19 kim_ this new scenario
Apr 13 18:40:24 kim_ let's speed things up
Apr 13 18:40:41 kim_ normally you'd do all 4 questions more quickly too... we just took our time today
Apr 13 18:40:49 Texas_Patriot Contact the user, let him know that he can propose an alteration or new policy, but altering or simply making his own is disruptive to the community. And ask him to remove them and go through the correct process. If he refuses, offer to open a cabal mediation.
Apr 13 18:41:09 Filll anyone is welcome to do these on their own...by multiple choice, or essay answer or anonymously
Apr 13 18:41:19 kim_ Texas_Patriot, actually, you can alter or make your own policy, it's "What I Do" now ;-)
Apr 13 18:41:30 kim_ Ok
Apr 13 18:41:51 kim_ Texas_Patriot, but that's your answer to question 1 ? :-)
Apr 13 18:41:52 [AGK] kim_: how much longer will your lectures last?
Apr 13 18:42:00 kim_ 19 more minutes today
Apr 13 18:42:05 kim_ we started for real at 17:30
Apr 13 18:42:17 kim_ and 1:30 (2* 45 minutes) is reasonable
Apr 13 18:42:18 Texas_Patriot Question 1?
Apr 13 18:42:29 kim_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Apr 13 18:42:40 kim_ 1.The action you would like to take , and a personal reason why you are in support of that action.
Apr 13 18:42:50 kim_ 2. What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise
Apr 13 18:42:58 kim_ 3. A reason why you think others (will) support that position (ie, why is this likely to gain consensus).
Apr 13 18:42:59 Xav My action: Be polite, inform him of what policy really is (Vassyana's principles essay, or something), gut feeling is he thinks he'll lawyer a way out of it (ironically), everyone is involved, he needs to stop, he needs to stop, be polite and inform him at first (by bullet points)
Apr 13 18:43:02 Texas_Patriot Yes, I had that open, along with a few other windows, thanks for clarifying.
Apr 13 18:43:03 Qst Fill: Did you try to add me on skype?
Apr 13 18:43:07 kim_ 4. What likely would need to be said or done to reverse the position of the community. , or where the community might be willing to compromise
Apr 13 18:43:29 Filll i did qst
Apr 13 18:43:32 Filll just clickyes
Apr 13 18:43:32 kim_ Xav, alright... and what would be needed to change your approach?
Apr 13 18:43:44 Xav Oh. First be polite and tell him WHY he should stop (pref, without ever saying stop), and I support this action cuz it's right
Apr 13 18:43:57 kim_ Xav, it's "right" ... why is it right?
Apr 13 18:44:18 * kim_ actually disagrees with everyone who thinks they should tell this guy to stop ... ;-)
Apr 13 18:44:33 kim_ The part I'd ask him to stop with is posting welcomes to newbies
Apr 13 18:44:34 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:44:34 Xav Well, change his method at any rate
Apr 13 18:44:45 Xav But giving people false policies isn't good
Apr 13 18:44:54 Texas_Patriot Just about to say that part honestly Kim.
Apr 13 18:44:56 kim_ who says they're false? :-)
Apr 13 18:45:17 Sniperz11 arbcomm
Apr 13 18:45:21 Xav Mostly everyone; I'm being pragmatic. I'm pretty inclusionist myself...
Apr 13 18:45:26 kim_ "can someone decide to unilaterally design their own policy statements?"
Apr 13 18:45:33 kim_ [[WP:CCC]] [[Wp:BOLD]] <- YES! ;-)
Apr 13 18:45:42 Sniperz11 wouldn't that be an oxymoron??
Apr 13 18:46:06 kim_ However, if he tells other people that this is how wikipedia works, to new users...
Apr 13 18:46:07 kim_ well ...
Apr 13 18:46:12 Sniperz11 since the WP Rules are "created by the community" through consensus and general agreement?
Apr 13 18:46:15 kim_ how does he know so sure :-)
Apr 13 18:46:24 kim_ Sniperz11, wikipedia doesn't have firm rules ;-)
Apr 13 18:46:25 Xav well, sure, they can TRY. But I know this didn't work the way he intended from the outset (changing policy unilaterally)
Apr 13 18:46:28 Texas_Patriot There are policies that are widely accepted among editors, then there are the user ones...
Apr 13 18:46:28 kim_ [[WP:IAR]] ;-)
Apr 13 18:46:37 kim_ Xav, exactly
Apr 13 18:46:45 kim_ he isn't doing what he thinks he's doing ;-)
Apr 13 18:46:51 * kim_ snickers
Apr 13 18:46:59 Xav Ugh. Turning on koan module.
Apr 13 18:47:02 Filll I might even convince this gentleman to join us in IRC
Apr 13 18:47:05 kim_ Xav, ROTFL! ;-)
Apr 13 18:47:07 Filll he might come anonymously though
Apr 13 18:47:07 Sniperz11 lol
Apr 13 18:47:21 kim_ that'd be fun
Apr 13 18:47:26 kim_ for after the lecture
Apr 13 18:47:27 kim_ ;-)
Apr 13 18:47:29 Filll as a special guest
Apr 13 18:47:30 Filll yep
Apr 13 18:47:35 kim_ which is 13 minutes from now
Apr 13 18:47:36 kim_ tell you what
Apr 13 18:47:41 Filll he has VERY strong feelings about this
Apr 13 18:47:41 kim_ let's close a little early
Apr 13 18:47:42 Filll haha
Apr 13 18:47:45 Filll well he isnt on right now
Apr 13 18:47:48 Filll but I will work on him
Apr 13 18:47:55 kim_ Ok
Apr 13 18:48:06 kim_ We've walked through one of Fillls scenarios
Apr 13 18:48:10 kim_ and we've asked 4 basic questions
Apr 13 18:48:13 Xav I like these scenarios.
Apr 13 18:48:14 kim_ 1. what would you do
Apr 13 18:48:40 kim_ 2. what would you compromise on
Apr 13 18:48:45 kim_ 3. what would the community do
Apr 13 18:48:52 kim_ 4. what can the community compromise on
Apr 13 18:49:00 kim_ if you know the answers to these four questions
Apr 13 18:49:13 kim_ odds are, you will be able to convince the community to support your actions
Apr 13 18:49:30 kim_ Because it's not enough to know what you're going to do
Apr 13 18:49:35 kim_ and to do what you think is right
Apr 13 18:49:39 kim_ wikipedia is run by consensus
Apr 13 18:49:47 kim_ you need to convince other people to support your actions
Apr 13 18:50:03 kim_ else you will end up countered, reverted, or blocked
Apr 13 18:50:18 kim_ these 4 questions are not all you need to do , but they're a good framework :-)
Apr 13 18:50:26 kim_ So I hope you'll use them each time.
Apr 13 18:50:29 Xav <small>"He's not doing what he thinks he's doing" WTF?</small> (yes, I know no HTML tags)
Apr 13 18:50:46 kim_ And Fillls AGF situations are a good exercise ;-)
Apr 13 18:51:00 kim_ So please everyone try to answer them in the way you've learned today
Apr 13 18:51:04 Xav Oh, that makes sense suddenly. Durr.
Apr 13 18:51:15 kim_ and send your answers to Filll ... he's doing research, and you will help science by doing it ;-)
Apr 13 18:51:30 kim_ Xav, He thinks he's changing policy... while in reality he's writing pages :-)
Apr 13 18:51:32 Filll yes we want to compile a nice sampling of answers
Apr 13 18:51:38 Xav yup
Apr 13 18:51:46 Filll and then in a few weeks
Apr 13 18:51:53 Filll i will reveal what really happened
Apr 13 18:51:58 Filll in each of tehse cases
Apr 13 18:52:03 Filll and give some new exercises
Apr 13 18:52:10 Xav cool! :-D
Apr 13 18:52:44 Filll I hope I can get as many as possible from those who complain about how Wikipedia handles difficult situations to weigh in
Apr 13 18:53:09 Xav I sure hope you don't expect concise answers :-p
Apr 13 18:53:09 Filll since it is easy to criticize in the abstract..but what does one do in a concrete situation?
Apr 13 18:53:13 kim_ Filll, But here you're getting answers from people learning how to make the wiki work for them :-)
Apr 13 18:53:17 Filll no of course not
Apr 13 18:53:54 * Filll2 (n=Sprat@pool-71-179-92-109.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 18:54:04 kim_ wb Fill2
Apr 13 18:54:05 Filll2 and sometimes one has to do something quite complicated
Apr 13 18:54:05 kim_ Ok
Apr 13 18:54:11 Filll2 Durova answered one
Apr 13 18:54:13 Filll2 verbally
Apr 13 18:54:16 kim_ :-)
Apr 13 18:54:19 Filll2 and gave a very very long and detailed answer
Apr 13 18:54:23 Filll2 very sophisticated
Apr 13 18:54:35 Filll2 since she has a LOT of experience in dealing with difficult situations
Apr 13 18:54:39 SteveCrossin3 is durova online? :)
Apr 13 18:54:39 kim_ She's cool on skype :-)
Apr 13 18:54:47 Filll2 no not right now
Apr 13 18:54:51 Filll2 it is early where she is
Apr 13 18:54:53 SteveCrossin3 :/
Apr 13 18:54:55 Filll2 somewhat
Apr 13 18:54:59 Sniperz11 speakin of skype...
Apr 13 18:55:08 Sniperz11 who here is on it?
Apr 13 18:55:11 Xav I just got it. It's nice.
Apr 13 18:55:12 kim_ Right
Apr 13 18:55:23 kim_ just before we get into that... Lecture Over For Today
Apr 13 18:55:27 kim_ ----END ----
Apr 13 18:55:29 kim_ or some such
Apr 13 18:55:30 kim_ Alright
Apr 13 18:55:45 kim_ Feel free to discuss whatever ... I'm not moderating anymore :-)
Apr 13 18:55:51 * kim_ puts down my hat
Apr 13 18:56:10 Sniperz11 is this off the log then from now on???
Apr 13 18:56:11 kim_ So Sniperz11 was asking who is on skype?
Apr 13 18:56:23 kim_ Sniperz11, this channel remains logged... do take that into account :-)
Apr 13 18:56:41 * kim_ has changed the topic to: lecture over. Channel still logged. :-)
Apr 13 18:56:45 Xav Let's form a secret cabal dedicated to taking over wikipedia!
Apr 13 18:56:49 Sniperz11 hehe
Apr 13 18:56:50 Xav JOKING ZOMG
Apr 13 18:56:59 kim_ Xav, be careful
Apr 13 18:57:01 Xav (sorry)
Apr 13 18:57:01 Sniperz11 i'm on skype, if anyone wants to add me
Apr 13 18:57:06 Sniperz11 same username.
Apr 13 18:57:13 Xav I /am/ kidding :-)
Apr 13 18:57:21 kim_ Xav, once someone said "it won't let you delete the main page ... try it" on -en-admins
Apr 13 18:57:33 Xav haha, I saw the AN/I :-D
Apr 13 18:57:41 kim_ "Sorry, just kidding!"
Apr 13 18:57:46 kim_ right after
Apr 13 18:57:50 kim_ very very oops :-P
Apr 13 18:58:02 kim_ alright
Apr 13 18:58:14 kim_ now I needed to talk with ... AGK about a skype session
Apr 13 18:58:25 kim_ Did everyone learn something from todays lecture? :_)
Apr 13 18:58:43 Xav 1,2,3,4
Apr 13 18:58:45 Sniperz11 yes... ignore ALL rules
Apr 13 18:58:51 kim_ Sniperz11, <grin>
Apr 13 18:59:04 kim_ Sniperz11, yes you may do that... but what's the caveat to that? ;-)
Apr 13 18:59:24 kim_ Xav: Cool
Apr 13 18:59:41 * Sniperz11 is still figuring that out
Apr 13 19:00:15 kim_ Sniperz11, you need to always be improving the wikipedia
Apr 13 19:00:25 kim_ the rules are there to advise you on how to do that
Apr 13 19:00:27 Sniperz11 yes
Apr 13 19:00:45 Sniperz11 just a question here for everyone, show of hands....
Apr 13 19:00:54 Sniperz11 are u an inclusionist or a deletionist?
Apr 13 19:01:06 Xav I'm that one with the really long acronym bordering on inclusionist
Apr 13 19:01:11 * SteveCrossin3 is now known as SteveCrosisn
Apr 13 19:01:17 kim_ but if you have to chose between improving wikipedia, or following the rules
Apr 13 19:01:20 kim_ improve wiki is first
Apr 13 19:01:22 * SteveCrosisn is now known as SteveCrossin
Apr 13 19:01:30 kim_ I gotta talk about arranging a voice lecture next time
Apr 13 19:01:31 Sniperz11 good point Kim.
Apr 13 19:01:32 kim_ TTYL
Apr 13 19:01:38 Qst Filll: mind a pm?
Apr 13 19:03:07 * Xav (n=Xavexgoe@adsl-75-17-209-129.dsl.euclwi.sbcglobal.net) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 19:04:14 * Texas_Patriot (n=Texas_Pa@c-98-201-24-174.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 19:06:17 Filll2 yes on skype
Apr 13 19:06:19 Filll2 send me on
Apr 13 19:10:32 * Filll2 has quit ()
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Apr 13 19:11:10 * Filll has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Apr 13 19:18:26 * [AGK] has quit ("Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.")
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Apr 13 19:28:57 * SteveCrossin (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/stevecrossin) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures
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Apr 13 19:31:16 Xav kim_
Apr 13 19:31:33 Xav I need access to chat, so I can sort this damn chat thing out
Apr 13 19:35:58 Xav Is there a respective chat?
Apr 13 19:36:20 Xav wrong chat thinger
Apr 13 19:38:46 * Vassyana (n=pcccc@wikipedia/Vassyana) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 19:38:46 * Notify: Vassyana is online (kubrick.freenode.net).
Apr 13 19:39:03 Xav kim_ is there a respective chat for that conference?
Apr 13 19:41:11 * kim_bruning (n=kim@bruning.xs4all.nl) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 19:41:19 kim_bruning Vassyana, hello here some more
Apr 13 19:41:20 kim_bruning POKE
Apr 13 19:42:24 Sniperz11 whats goin on now?
Apr 13 19:42:38 kim_bruning Just gonna introduce Vassyana and Filll
Apr 13 19:44:27 * Qst has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
Apr 13 19:48:54 * lucasbfr (n=nn@wikipedia/lucasbfr) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures
Apr 13 19:57:52 * Xav has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Apr 13 20:08:36 * kim_bruning has quit ("Leaving")
Apr 13 20:12:29 * kim_ pokes Vassyana some more
Apr 13 20:12:37 kim_ guess he's got some issues
Apr 13 20:12:40 Python interface unloaded
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Apr 13 20:12:40 2008
