Talk:Leather

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Contents 1 Factual Inaccuracies 2 Snake and crocodile leather 3 added to a few stubs 4 Need for information on usage 5 leather grades 6 Need clarification on the Suede Definition 7 Tensile Strength 8 Vegetarian leather 9 Keep leather/suede separate 10 Weird 11 Historical information 12 Nubuck 13 Types of Leather 14 Elephant leather? 15 How to define a real leather 16 checking of leather 17 Neutrality of Greenpeace/PETA -Like Rant 18 Deleted External redirect 19 Leather direct to a disambiguation page? 20 Leather chemical potential 21 Source of leather 22 Water-proof leather?? 23 In countries with harmonious multi-religious environments, leather vendors choose to announce the leather used in their products 24 Edibility? 25 Enzyme originators 26 Amount of leather vs amount of meat.

[edit] Factual Inaccuracies

As a ex-lecturer of the British School of Leather of leather technology and now a leather consultant for the leather industry I have restored some of the neutrality of this thread to distinguish between the fur and leather industries - very distinct industries - and the leather industry would be a little peeved if they were lumped with the fur industry - they are governed separately. I have also corrected the forms of leather to be a little more scientifically factual. If it needs simplifying I dont mind someone changing it - just dont rubbish the facts. I have updated the leather process into current thinking and I will expand the operation stubs when I get a chance. Also corrected the mistake that many people make in confusing an operation and a process. A process consists of operations so therefore an activity, e.g the tanning process cannot be part of the leather process--->tanning operation yes...

I will bulk up the leather section with lots of leather information as soon as I get a chance. I am also about to answer a lot of the discussion points below...Plugflower 21:32, 20 February 2007

[edit] Snake and crocodile leather

this doesn't seem correct -- snake and crocodile leather? I have heard them called snake skin and crocodile skin but never leather. Is anyone out there more certain? --rmhermen

according to the definition, leather is cured animal hide, which means the croc and snake skin are technically leathers...mike dill

The skin in its raw state is called skin (or hide if it is of larger animals) and leather refers to the processed/cured skin/hide. In the case of snake/crocodile even the cured skin is referred to as skins not leathers. It is just the language usage, no special reason. Technically leather should also be correct. -- Ma Siva Kumar

It depends on how you cure them. "Leather" has a technical meaning, which I'm only beginning to learn, and tried to hint at in the entry. -- Metahacker 23:20, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] added to a few stubs

I filled out a few stubs under leather technique. Please feel free to modify language. Crafters out there are welcome to add more technique. I know a lot more could be said under leather carving.

[edit] Need for information on usage

I believe a complete list of usages would be in order, if anybody is up to it? Bayerischermann 23:12, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] leather grades

I've seen a number of different leather grades promoted. "Grade A/B" at one place, Grades I-V at another. What do these mean and how do the grades interact with fullgrain vs. top-grain?

Some Peta assholes got into this page and put their opinions in there.

re: I think grade A/B or I-V is just sort of article with usage surface of leather for sort I-80% II-60% III 40% surface usage to doing shoes ( in POLAND)

The grading of leathers is a highly contentious issue as each tannery uses its own convention. Leather buyers also have their own convention so you can see this is a recipe for disaster. Generally speaking though Grade A or Grade 1 are the top grades and this can go all the way down to Grade 7 or Grade E. The last grades are usually referred to as pieces or reject. Unfortunately there are no industry standards for this : ( Plugflower 22:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need clarification on the Suede Definition

The suede definition here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suede seems very different from the summary given on this page. Would be nice if they matched closer XD

Well, they're not actually conflicting; that page is just a subset of information here. It should probably just redirect here. -- Metahacker 20:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

The link you have given talks about the uses of suede mainly. I have edited the piece on suede to give a little more detail on where the different suedes come from. Plugflower 22:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tensile Strength

I've been looking far a wide across the net for info on the tensile strength (Breaking strength or breaking point, depending on which term you know better)of leather. I haven't been able to find anything about this matter, and really am wondering. I know that leather is made differently and that various it's strength but I can't even find the tensile strength for one kind of leather.

Having some info this would be great.

Tensile strength is an important characteristic of most leather especially in shoe uppers and furniture. Equally important is perhaps tear strength. All the big shoe and automotive companies have specifications for tensile strength and tear strength of leather and there are a number of methods for measuring it. The strength will vary greatly with the thickness, type of leather, animal, breed, tannage and finishing processes. Tensile strength is typically in the range 2500 – 3500 lbs/in2, As with many leather physical characteristics, while strength is sometimes important for the end use, it often features in a specification as a guide to overall quality and leather making practices. ref: http://www.leatherusa.org/TEST-Tensile.htm rasp8 03:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vegetarian leather

AdBusters claims the shoes that they sell use vegetarian leather. [1] Does anyone know about this, and could we have something mentioned about it in the article? -- LGagnon 02:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

"Vegetarian leather" is often just a term for pleather (fake leather). It is sometimes marketed as "vegetarian leather" to make it more appealing to vegetarians, who do not wear genuine leather. Lycanthrope777 02:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keep leather/suede separate

I vote to keep leather and suede separate. The suede article could grow into quite a treatise on the subject, and all we need to do is provide a wikilink to leather to let people gain the full benefit. - Richardcavell 13:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, keep them seperate --SnakeSeries 21:34, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that as suede is a type of leather it should be here. There are non-leather suede copies but they are just that..copies if you separate these then the title of the separate article should be FAKE suedes and you can link back the genuine leather suede here. Plugflower 22:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weird

I've got a leather chair that i generally sit in while watching t.v., and i just recently noticed that the leather interferes with my remote control. If i hold my remote within about 3 inches of the chair the infrared beam doesnt reach the television. Any thoughts would be great.

That is really weird. I'm inclined to believe that it's not anything to do with the material of your chair but perhaps the color. If the infrared signal from your remote is not strong enough to be registered by your TV then it may be relying on reflection from multiple surfaces around your room, the ceiling, the carpet, the walls... anything that is remotely reflective will backscatter the infrared signal. The TV may respond to the infrared "glow" of your room when it may not respond to your remote on its own. If the chair is highly non-reflective (dark color or heavily textured) then by placing the remote too close to it, you might be preventing the infrared backscatter from, say, half of the room. Just a theory. C. Rout

[edit] Historical information

I would like some information on the history of leather. /Yvwv 23:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nubuck

Can we have the a description of the process to produce "Nubuck" and a history of this term? It is briefly defined in Wiktionary.

Vernon White 20:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC) The process is simple, when we have tan leather (with chrome or wegetable) we just buffing this leather in buffing machine 2 times in side to side, with grainy paper. The leather must be tanned with waterproof oils.

There's an article about Nubuck, and I was wondering if it should be linked from here, or if it should just be merged into this article. (Edit: this was me, forgot to sign in) AlexDitto 21:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Types of Leather

The article states that most leather used is from cows but I'm pretty sure that I've read before that pig leather is as common/more common with cheaper goods. --JD79 13:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The pig leather production is most cheaper but pig leather have only one layer and the thickness is from 1.5 to 1.7mm The cow leathers have 5layers and the thickness is from 3.2 to 4.0 mm in process of chrome tanning. We can split and use all of 2 layers of cow leathers. So cow leathers is better for use inthe top of the shues and pig leathers is good for filler of the shues. Sorry for My english, I just learning..... Greetings, Specialist of finishing leathers

According the latest FAO statistics cattle hide leather still way outweighs the amount of pig leather around and will do so for a very long time to come Plugflower 22:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't this vary greatly by country? Is this a world-wide statistic, or one specific to a certain region? Indium 13:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

How to clarify the surface print of the leather?

[edit] Elephant leather?

Is leather ever made from elephants? I would imagine it would be very tough.

My uncle had a jacket made of Rhino leather. I know it's not the same as elephant leather, but this stuff was so thick and tough that the coat could stand upright without support.

Elephant leather is made in tanneries - mainly in Africa. The hides have to be tanned in an approved tannery and under strict licence - as all elephants are protected by CITES. It is an extremely durable and thick leather. The hide can be split up to 12 times!!!! But it makes very nice leather. Plugflower 22:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How to define a real leather

How can one define real leather from synthetic

The way I tell real leather from synthetic is by the smell; real leather has a very distinctive odour. BlueValour 17:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

In addition to smell, they often feel different. Fake leather often has a "plasticy" feel and usually does not have the same texture as real leather. Also, real leather often has the smooth side and a softer side (which feels like suede", while fake leather usually has two smooth sides. Lycanthrope777 20:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] checking of leather

How can one tell whether leather is real or synthetic?

Generally, synthetic laether is made of plastic, and will not get "wet" when water is put on it. Be warned that this may damage actual leather. Another missing factor is the smell; synthetic leather smells like plastic; leather smells like leather. If folks keep asking, I suppose a section on this could be put in the main article... - Metahacker 22:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I remember a simple test on whether the leather is real or synthetic. You need to cut a little strip of the material and burn it. The smell of real leather/skin is very distinctive.Alexei123 05:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, the main article mentions "Nappa leather". Interestingly, Audi and Volkswagen cars also use some other material they call "Vienna leather". Some furniture manufacturers also mention the use of "Vienna leather". I could not find reliable information on what is it, is it "real", synthetic, or something else? Alexei123 05:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

What is the symbol of leather?(at a shoe for example?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.170.209.215 (talk) 10:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of Greenpeace/PETA -Like Rant

Umm? Does this section really fit in as a wikipedia quality article?

This section has no place in this article; it is clearly intended as an opinion piece, and appears to have been dropped in entirely to push a point of view. Additionally, it is not *about* leather. A well-sourced paragraph on concerns that animal rights' groups have regarding the use of animals for leather production would be acceptible; this is way off base. -- Metahacker 00:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the "neutrality dispute" header, as it appears that our "PETA-person" has made no attempt to repost his opinions. If you feel it is still necessary, please feel free to re-add it to the page.

[edit] Deleted External redirect

I deleted the redirect to the peta website and left the "comments" by the poster. Alot of the text was actually comming from an external web site and not wikipedia.

Oh, I'd put that link in there as a citation/example of the arguments used. Do you think it disrupts the article? -- Metahacker 22:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leather direct to a disambiguation page?

Trying to find the gay Leather subculture, I came across this page. This page also mentions people named leather. Shouldn't the "go" search for "Leather" come up with a disambiguation page that gives you these 3 alternatives and lets you choose for yourself? C4bl3Fl4m3 16:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leather chemical potential

There is a growing debate on the potential of leather chemicals used in leather processing. For this definite answer for the exact leather production in various countries is required to be compiled and a universal recipe for different types of leather produced needs to be standardised. A marginal deviation of 10% can be allowed in the recipe.

R Kumaresan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.110.85.248 (talk) 09:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

It is not the scope of Wikipedia to present a "how-to" selection of content, please refer to Wikibooks for such like content. Wikipedia is the presentation of facts on a given topic. As to the content of a universal recipe for leather that would be contained in Wikibooks. A universal recipe does not exist. Plugflower (talk) 14:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Source of leather

Something I always wondered, and would be a good piece of info for the article if a reference could be found: Does most leather come from cattle used for other purposes (e.g. food), or are certain cattle raised for their hides? I imagine it's some combination of both... if so, what is the distribution? --Varco 06:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

All commercial cattle hide leather is a by-product of the meat industry. No cattle hide leather is obtained from animals for the strict purposes of its leather. The reason for this is that to raise a bovid to maturation would cost quite a lot(12-18 months of food). The only return would be the leather which does not sell for a lot (bovine leather is very common). A single cattle hide goes for about £400-800 (good quality). The meat would be wortha lot more. The food for that animal for 12-18 months would be a lot more than that. If the animal was free run, i.e. no food is bought for it then the hide will bear the scars of a free range animal and the amount you get for the skin would be be 2-5 times less than you get for the meat. Plugflower 22:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Surely the cost of a single cattle hide is typically lower than £400 - 800! Maybe £40 -80? User:Con21|rasp8 08:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)]

800 pounds is $1600. You can buy an entire cow for that at auction. A hide would only be worth that much after processing. You can buy a commercially processed and treated South American hide for $400 or less. That's about 150-200 pounds. Or about $600 for a quality one (300 pounds). This is including the store owner's cut. It's even less wholesale. perfectblue 13:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Your Miles out, a cow hide today if you knew where to purchase would be somewhere more in the region of USD$80-100 depending on the type, thats bovine of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scm5mrjn (talk • contribs) 15:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Water-proof leather??

My wrist watch is water proof but has a leather strap. After I examined it.. The strap says water-proof leather. Could somebody give details of the same (man-made material or hide processed to make it water-proof??). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.167.62.67 (talk) 04:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Truly waterproof leather is very difficult, if not impossible but water resistant and water repellent leather is quite common. Water resistance can be by various means. Hydrophobic materials can be impregnated into the leather, or such materials can be applied to the surfaces only. Resistance varies with the methods used and the type of leather. Resistance to water penetration is best if chemicals/oils are penetrated through the thickness of the leather and durability is best if the chemicals react with the leather or its tanning materials. Surface sprays are useful additions to penetrated treatments but used on their own, they are generally less effective. As well as water resistance and repellency, common treatments often reduce the water absorption, making wet leather much lighter. This is sometimes the main benefit e.g. in sporting goods. Repeated wetting, soiling, cleaning and abrasion will cause water resistance to diminish.rasp8 03:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Really, I just used a waxing agent on mine. The water can't penetrate the surface so the leather is water resistant enough to be storm proof. It's very effective and only needs re coating every couple of years. - perfectblue 13:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In countries with harmonious multi-religious environments, leather vendors choose to announce the leather used in their products

Is there a WP:RS for this? Isn't this a requirement of labeling laws in many places or included because certain types of leather are less valuable/resistant than others (for example, pig skin gloves being much cheaper than cow hide).

perfectblue 13:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edibility?

Is leather edible? theres lots of stories of starving people eating thier own boots, is it true and is there any nutritional value in leather? —Preceding unsigned comment added by OktoberSunset (talk • contribs) 17:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Raw hide and skin is edible and is eaten in many countries. The most common and obvious is bacon and crackling. Cattle hide is eaten in some West African countries. Leather itself is technically edible, but I would imagine it wouldn't taste very nice and coul be hazardous if certain chemicals are ingested. As to the practice of it. I think occasions have occurred where leather is eaten but it isn't commonplace.Plugflower (talk) 15:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Enzyme originators

I have deleted the addition "Vasudeo Zambare and his team have done ample of work on dehairing protease. Vasudeo Zambare is one of the inventor of this work and the team has filled patent application in Indian, German and United States Patent Offices." As this was seemingly added for personal gain (contravening Wiki's rules) and is not verifiable. If Mr Zambare can add the information in a neutral manner in accordance with Wikipedia's rules, I will stop deleting it.Plugflower (talk) 14:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Amount of leather vs amount of meat.

There's one thing that I've always wanted to know: do we discard a lot of animal hides that would make viable leather?

We kill a lot of animals for meat, and I'm wondering whether wearing more leather would be the most efficient, ecological option... Prof Wrong (talk) 16:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)