Talk:Laws about rape

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Given that there's already a page on rape reporting and the information on it here is both redundant and off-topic, I'm going to delete the section unless someone objects. --JaceCady 01:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone else feel that this view does not, and can never, give a worldwide view of the law of rape? Would it not be better to briefly summarise the main elements and the list articles discussing the law in individual states, rather than making broad generalisations as this article does? It is very hard to say "the law of rape is this" as it almost always won't universally be so.

[edit] Scots law dispute

This discussion is carrying over from the main article, Rape. Anonymous user, please stop changing this article to remove the one proper legal reference in it. If you have formal references to support your point about Scottish law, please present them. If you do not, please desist. Thank you. -- TinaSparkle 16:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not changing the article, you have no referneces to your 'alleged' facts. Can you answer one question for me, I just want something confirmed, men can be raped by women correct... in scottish law it states 'Women can be prosecuted for rape under the Rape Act 2003, the act is designed to make offences more gender neutral'. Women can be prosecuted and charged for raping men in Scotland, its a fact. I don't mean to sound rude, but am putting across a serious point. Take a look at this link and this link, it states 'Victim' not 'Woman' or 'Man' and perpetrater not 'Man' or 'Woman' meaning either the man or woman can be the perpatrator and/or the victim. The second actually states that 'the reform will encourage thousands more women - and men - each year to report sex attacks and increase the abysmally low conviction rate for rape, which stands at just over 4%'. --88.108.53.172 20:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the links you provided? The BBC article makes no reference to it being possible to charge women with rape. Nor does the Scotsman link, though it mentions that male-male rape may be legally defined at some point in the future. Neither article supports the point you're making.

The bit in the Scotsman that says "more women - and men - each year to report sex attacks" is about sex attacks, not rape. Unconsenting penile penetration of any orifice on a man or a woman other than a vagina is presently defined as sodomy or indecent assault, as the article makes very clear. This Wikipedia article is not about sodomy laws or indecent assault laws; it is about rape laws. To quote from the Scotsman piece:

Under the plans, the definition of rape will be extended to cover any crime of penile penetration. It is also expected to introduce a new crime of 'sexual assault by penetration' to cover other forms of non-penile penetration. Also expected is a new crime of 'sexual assault by touching', under which offenders could be prosecuted for groping someone without their consent.

The definition of rape may be expanded to include any act of penile penetration, but this would still mean that it was impossible for a woman to commit rape. Unless, of course, she had a penis. Women generally don't. Anyway, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball - we can't include possible changes to the law in the future in this piece.

You seem to want me to say that men can be raped by women. It doesn't matter what I think, and nor does it matter what you think: Scottish law, as it stands, says that only men can perpetrate rape and only women can be the victims of it. This article is about rape laws, not your opinion or mine. There is some suggestion that the Scots may change the law so that men can also be defined as the victims of rape, though this has not yet taken place. There is no suggestion that women could be defined as the rapists in any situation.

There is no such thing as the Rape Act 2003. There is a Sexual Offences Act 2003 in English and Welsh law, not Scottish law, and it states unambiguously that rape is committed by men against women. You can read it at the British Government's Office of Public Sector Information, here: [1]

In Scotland, there was a Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003, but it made no reference to rape being gender-ambiguous; rather the opposite, in fact. You can read it also at OPSI, here: [2]

The Scottish legal system's current views on rape are stated very clearly in a PDF from the Scottish Parliament's website. It's available here: [3]

I quote:

Rape is a gender-specific crime. In Scotland, it can only be committed by males upon females, which appears to mean by persons biologically male at birth upon persons born biologically female. It is, therefore, a crime of specific personal violence perpetrated on females.

I really don't see that there's any way you could mistake this for a law that says women can perpetrate rape and men can have it perpetrated on them. And I don't know where you're getting your ideas from - they certainly aren't supported by the evidence you have provided. Please stop changing this page to include blatantly wrong information: it is a form of vandalism, and contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. -- TinaSparkle 22:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You really don't understand do you, there are laws in Scotland that do state if a man is raped or sexually assaulted by a woman the charges are the same to that as rape. If there was no law in place to state this, women would be raping and sexually assalting men all over the place; it is a problem worldwide already. My case is made and point is put foward. You didn't answer my above comment so I will assume from that, that you are some sort of feminist and 'trying' not to believe that men are victims of rape by women. I also notice that another user, not related to me changed something in the 'Rape' artcle referencing that men are now becoming victims of rape and that laws are changing to counteract this. That is fact. By the way, what does the Wikipedia article on Rape state right at the top of the page? This; "Rape is a form of assault involving the non-consensual sexual violation of the sexual, anal, or oral organs of another person's body. The victim can be of either sex, as can the assailant.". My case is at rest. --88.108.53.172 10:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

If your case is at rest, I fear you may be losing. References to other Wikipedia articles do not qualify as references to reliable sources! You clearly have an interest in pushing the line that female rape of men is epidemic. If you wish to believe that, you are entitled to do so. But, if you can't back it up with reliable sources, such an assertion has no place on Wikipedia. Meanwhile, you have provided no references to any Scottish laws to demonstrate your belief that rapists can be defined as female in Scotland.

Look, let me make the position extremely clear: my concern re this page is to have it accurately reflect the state of the laws about rape worldwide. If the law in Scotland says that both men and women can be rapists, that is a fascinating and important fact and needs to be in the article. However, according to all available sources, the law in Scotland says that only men can be rapists. If you can find any reliable sources to support your argument, please present them, and I will be very happy to have them added to the article or to add them myself. If you are right about the state of the law in Scotland, it should be very easy to prove it from the Scottish Parliament or OPSI websites, and I will concede the point and offer you an apology. If you discover in the course of your researches that I am correct, I hope you will do me the same courtesy. -- TinaSparkle 14:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

88.108.53.172 you are getting confused between the definition of rape you find in a dictionary, on Wikipedia, on in your head, and the Scots legal definition of rape.

In Scots law a woman cannot be charged with rape. This is because, in Scots law, rape as defined as penetration of the vagina by the penis without the active consent of the woman. Lord Advocate's Ref (No 1 of 2001) is a recent case which removed the requirement of force in rape, but kept it gender specific.

Balfron 16:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

But a woman can be charged with engaging in a sexual act without his consent, which equates and the charges are the same as rape. --88.110.121.26 22:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Like I think is mentioned in the article, that would be indecent assault, which is a form of aggravated assault. She would be charged with aggravated assault. The charge would read something like "at 12 X street, y town, on 29th May at roughly 5am, you did (whatever) and you did indecently assault him." there would be no mention of rape, as in Scots law rape is only penile penetration of the vagina without active consent. I'm sure we all agree that the law isn't very good, but that's what it is and that's what Wikipedia has to say it is. If you don't believe me why not walk into a bookshop and open a book on Scots criminal law? Or else you can email me balfron123@gmail.com and i will send you my lecture notes on the subject. Or else you could trust me? Balfron 11:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this enough for you? Read the first page. (The actus reus means the physical act. A crime consists of two things; a physical act and a mental thought process (or lack of). http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/pdf_res_notes/rn01-46.pdf Balfron 11:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

OK I see you ignored our discussion here and went ahead with an edit stating untrue things. I edited it out again... Balfron 19:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

OK now you have given me some sort of warning, accusing me of vandalism and "removing sourced points". Your edit is wrong, and is not sourced. I have removed it once again, and seek support from the rest of the community. Once again, you are wrong, and you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your statement. Please can you give some sort of source backing up your view before editing. Please also can you discuss things here instead of just starting an edit war. Balfron 15:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Balfron, I'm entirely in support of you. I have removed this incorrect edit again. If the vandalism continues, we may need to consider having this page protected. A general message to anonymous users: Please note that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and you may not add potential future events; please also note that all additions to this article must be verifiable and sourced to reliable sources. If you can't provide proper references to formal legal sources for points in this article, it is not appropriate to add them. This article is not an opinion piece and may not represent anything other than an accurate account of the legal position on rape laws: that means no futurology, no advocacy, no opinion. This rule is vital everywhere on Wikipedia but is particularly important on a controversial subject like this. -- TinaSparkle 15:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)