Talk:Land of Oz

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Wikiproject Oz
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This article is part of WikiProject Oz, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the Oz and Wicked series. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project.
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I removed the fictional category template becuase Oz is technically not a country, its a region containing countries.--The_stuart 17:55, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think that's incredibly silly of you. Oz matches most of the criteria for what a typical person would call a fictional country. The categorization scheme is not meant to be an exact scientific tool, it's meant as a reference guide. Would you remove zuchinni and eggplants from the category of vegetables, because technically they're fruit? Suit yourself, I think the way categories currently function on Wikipedia is too confused anyway for me to expend much energy on questions like this, but I think if anything should be in the category of Fictional Countries, Oz is a prime example. --Woggly 07:29, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
To answer your question yes I would remove zuchinni and eggplants from the category of vegtable because they are technically fruit or at least make a very clear point some where in the article of this fact. If you want to categorize Oz as a fictional country go ahead, but it's misinformation.--The_stuart 16:31, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Actually, Oz, IS a country. The four "countries" are equivalent to US states, with the Emerald City as its capital. Ozma rules ALL of Oz. Remember, Baum was creating an American fairy tale, and based Oz upon the United States's layout. If each "country" was a seperate nation, why would Ozma rule over them all? --[[User:JonMoore|—JonMoore 20:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)]] 05:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. According to wiktionary, a country is "a nation state, a political entity asserting ultimate authority over a large geographical area," which is definitely Oz. There's also a definition that says "a former independent nation state (e.g., England or Scotland)" so perhaps that's what Munchkinland etc. are, but just because Wales and Scotland are countries doesn't mean that the U.K., by the first definition, is not.--Signor Giuseppe 15:12, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Oz

I have created a new WikiProject about Oz: WikiProject Oz. I hope to create a community to help guide the continued development of the articles about the series and its authors, characters, etc. toward even more quality articles. If you are interested, please add your name under the "Participants section" and please leave any comments or questions on the project's talk page or my user talk page. [[User:JonMoore|— —JonMoore 20:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)]] 23:50, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

urrh...

"Perceptive cartographers will notice that on some maps of Oz, the west is drawn on the right-hand side of the map, and the east is drawn on the left-hand side, though north is still at the top and south at the bottom of the map. The compass rose on these maps is adjusted accordingly. "

This text appears directly below a map with the inverted east-westness, but NOT the inverted compass rose.

Someone may want to deal with this. I don't want to. However, for one opinion, Robert Heinlein suggests (claims, really) in his novel The Number of the Beast (which includes a jaunt to Oz in the storyline) that the directions really ARE reversed, and that east is west and west is east. Of course, this would just mean that Oz-Planet rotates the opposite direction from Earth (but would contradict suggestions that Nonestica is on Earth).

Dodger 23:11, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


Does it matter? The purpose of catagories is to make articles easier to find, not to satisfy the OCD compulsions of editors.

[edit] Origins of name

This version of Ozian history is problematic in that the Wizard named the country after himself even though it had been known as Oz and its rulers had been named Ozma for perhaps millennia. It is more likely that the story of the Wizard naming the land after himself is a type of retroactive continuity or revisionist history that attempted to explain the etymology of the name without a complete previous knowledge.

It's been a while since I read it, so I may be misremembering, but doesn't this get discussed in Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz? If I recall correctly, the explanation there is that the Wizard thought he'd named the country after himself, but it was actually a coincidence. Daibhid C 23:05 17 December 2005 (UTC)

That's correct. In book 4, Ozma says that the word Oz means good or great in an "old language." To my knowledge, this is the one of two references to an "old language" in the entire series. But in my reading anyway, not only is it unclear that it was called Oz before Diggs, but weather or not Oscar Diggs called it anything anything at all. --Mattbloom 19:37, 07 August 2007 (UTC)

Another note by someone else: I'm not familiar with the Oz universe, but it seems to me that the renaming of Oz is more accurately described as a backronym, not as an example of retroactive continuity or revisionist history. --MikeBob 07:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Emerald City emerald?

I love this article - came across it via Clifford Pickover's site. One point, though: In the first book, the Emerald City is not really emerald, but merely appears that way because the Wizard obliges everyone to wear green glasses. In subsequent books, however, it seems pretty clear that the city really is emerald. Should this be mentioned in the article? Adambrowne666 21:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi - I finally found the passage I was thinking of: it's in The Emerald City of Oz, aptly enough, in the second paragraph of Chapter 3: 'The Emerald City is built all of beautiful marbles in which are set a profusion of emeralds, every one exquisitely cut and of very great size.' - so in this book the Emerald City is made of emeralds, at least in part... Adambrowne666 22:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The Wizard wasn't the best ruler. The Emerald City had emeralds both before and after his reign, but for some reason one needed green glasses during the Wizardean Period. Ozma refurnished the Emerald City during the earlier years of her reign, I think it's mentioned in Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz, when the Wizard comes back and is forgiven.-LDHL--67.160.239.65 12:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dorothy's MGM Dream

I always have to correct people. There is no evidence that Dorothy was or wasn't dreaming in the MGM film. All the adults say she has a bump on her head which would be true if the window was still broken, which it isn't - that's KEY - the magic of the Ruby slippers one assumes restored her house. Most importantly, Dorothy earnestly corrects the adults that they are wrong, that she really was there, but finishes, that it doesn't matter because now she is home. It could be a dream, but it's left very open...--67.160.239.65 12:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glinda's Explanation

I deleted a bit about the MGM Glinda. She clearly states that "Dorothy had the power all along, but she had to find it out for herself". Dorothy explains what she has learned. The Slippers are mysteriously powerful in both book and film, as aside from zapping the witch (movie), and being comfortable (the book), they are only once used to send Dorothy home. It's logical to assume they wouldn't have worked if Dorothy not only believed they would, but also sincerely wished to return home.--67.160.239.65 12:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki style guide not followed....

I love Baum's books as well as anyone else here, but there's a definite problem with the fact that this entry is completely written in-universe. It's written as if Oz is a real place several times throughout the article. If you feel I'm just blowing hot-air, please refer to WP:WAF. WAF has several good examples of how this should be written, but I'd also like to point out one article, Bulbasaur, part of another project I've been working on. That is how you talk about fictional characters and places, not this. Any comments? Zappernapper 22:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this needs a total rewrite to conform to that standard. Goldfritha 00:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I've completely rewritten the History section and the introduction. How's it look? 172.165.196.145 20:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Good work, though I've done some tweaking on the prose - hope that's okAdambrowne666 07:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Certainly an improvement and it looks great overall. But I am wondering, which books describe the EC as made out of Emerald? Are you sure this isn't a inconsistency introduced by Thompson? 172.149.128.85 06:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure, because I've only read the Baum books -- I remember noting it when I first read it, because one of the things I like about the Oz books is their inconsistencies - there's something so beautifully slapdash about them - a making-it-up-as-you-go-along feel. I can't work out which book it was in though -- I'm happy to have it taken out of the article until someone else can come up with a citation. Adambrowne666 04:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I've just recently started reading Oz books by author authors--the public domain ones. I made a list of inconsistencies as I read, but I can't remember if the EC was in it. I did look through a few of the earlier books lately, and all that describe the city agree on marble up to Road, which mentions emerald walls, and (I believe) gates, as well as marble sidewalks and gold-plated houses. Perhaps that was the turning point in Baum's mind? 172.149.126.135 23:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
It's my understanding that in the first two books anyway, it was made of marble, with emeralds embedded in the walls, but that there were tall spires of emeralds on some of the buildings. Jinjar in book two and her girl army are actually seen pulling them out of the buildings and walk ways. The city seems to evolve though, like everything post Ozma. Even the geography changes, at least twice with no explanation (see geographic markers in books 1,3,6,and 9 for an example what I'm talking about). jmathewbloom 02:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Touched it up a bit more, especially the section on death, and a new section on the portrayal of Oz in the movie. I'm sure I've made a few mistakes, so I'd be glad if people took a look and patched things up a bit. It would also be nice if people added to the alternate Oz section. I think Laumer, Volkov, and A Barnstormer in Oz should be added, but I haven't actually read any of those books. I could add The Number of the Beast but I'm not sure it has enough Oz in it to warrant inclusion, and I'm not sure it really differs all that much from Baum's Oz. I think the only major difference is the one that's already mentioned in the map section. 172.130.94.10 17:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geology

Not only is this entirely in universe -- is any of this in the books, as opposed to being speculation? Fun though it may be to treat the work as if the world-building is good and needs only to be explained, it is not suitable for Wikipedia. Goldfritha 00:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

this is actually why i've been unwilling to do anything major, even ignoring it for a while. There is so much that would have to be cut becuase i don't really have the sources to back anything up. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
It's been given references -- but are those to mines and the like in the books, or merely allusions to the gems? I think the later; I will have to check. Goldfritha 16:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I also think this should be removed. 172.165.196.145 20:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Did anyone else notice that two countries are flipped? Munchkin Country is on the left, "west," and Winkie Country is on the right, "east"? That's completely wrong. Is there a way to fix it? Bouncehoper

It's addressed in the article under the West and East heading. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.161.102.19 (talk) 16:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC).
Actually, it's not. The text under that heading claims that the compass rose is adjusted when the West is shown on the right and the East on the left. But the compass rose in the graphic shows that West is left and East is right, just like on a typical map, except that the westerly Winkie Country is shown in the East and the easterly Munchkin Country in the West. The map appears to be in error. --DavidK93 21:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
You're right, that was unclear. I've fixed it up a bit, but it might be less neutral? I don't know. Someone take a look and tell me what you think. 172.161.121.159 23:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, it confused the heck out of me, you didn't make it clear that you were specifically making reference to the map in the image on the page, so I didn't understand why west had to be on the right side of the map (which sounded as though you were claiming that the compass should indicate that west is to the right, rahter than if it did then to match the text the Map should reflect this). I think to make it clear it should just be pointed out that whatever direction the compass points show, that, according to the text, the Munchkins should be in the direction which is indicated to be East, and the Winkies in the direction indicated to be west, but that the confusion mentioned has led to this not always being reflected in the maps as printed (And perhaps point out that the image posted is one such case).Number36 02:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to throw the cat among the pigeons - is it worth noting, maybe in a trivia section, that like Oz, maps of the Moon also have west and east flipped (a result of astronomers projecting our own west and east onto it)? Adambrowne666 02:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I've given the section another shot. I hope this attempt is clearer. Adambrowne666: I couldn't find a citation for the lunar maps or I would have inserted it myself. I think it could fit well into the section on maps in at least two places. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.162.107.83 (talk) 13:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC).
Much better, thanks :) Number36 03:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Does this explain why West and East are reversed on the Wogglebug Map? [1] Martin Blythe 05:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Characters

Should the characters of the stories really be listed here? Articles on real countries don't list notable residents of those countries. Should an article on a fictional country list fictional residents by name? There already is a List of characters in the Oz books. Shui9 23:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I removed the trivia section of the article in accordance with WP:TRIVIA. The section previously read as follows:

In a Sabrina, the Teenage Witch super novel, one of the chapters involves a displaced L. Frank Baum wandering through the Other Realm which ends up being the basis for the Oz books. The explanation for the name of OZ is given as a change from the intended original name of OR, for Other Realm.

Shui9 18:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Winkie Country/Vinkus

At the moment, the article mentions "Winkie Country (though also named 'The Vinkus')". I'm not a Baum scholar, but to my recollection "The Vinkus" is a term invented by Gregory Maguire for Wicked. If my memory is correct, the article shouldn't present Maguire's creations as if they were Baum's — the line should read something like "Winkie Country (called "The Vinkus" by Gregory Maguire in Wicked)", similar to the way the Wicked Witch of the East's name is parenthetically identified at Land of Oz#History through the first six books. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Red Brick Road

OK, now what do I say to my 5 year old daughter? We watched the movie recently and she asked me "Where does the red brick road go?" Now, in my childhood, the idea never occurred to me the other road really existed in the story, much less go anywhere, but obviously some people do. I'd love to hear any theories peiople have so I can pick the best answer! Mattopaedia (talk) 02:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Well when me and my cousin used to watch it as kids we decided it went to where the Wicked Witch lived...no idea why we thought that though. Kravitch (talk) 06:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't notice this earlier. Eric Gjovaag addresses this in his Oz FAQ: http://thewizardofoz.info/faq15.html#7 172.166.78.121 (talk) 22:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. And for those too lazy to follow links, here's what it says:
"15.7. Where does the Red Brick Road go?
Many people have spotted the Red Brick Road intertwined with the more famous Yellow Brick Road, and asked about this. There is no definitive answer, however. The Munchkin Army enters the city via the Red Brick Road, so that may be the way to the barracks. Also, Glinda's bubble appears to head in that general direction as she leaves, so that may be the way to her home in the north. (This was, in fact, the basis for an amusing story, "Follow the Other Brick Road" by Frederick E. Otto, in the 1989 edition of Oziana, IWOC's annual fiction anthology.) It does appear, however, that Glinda's bubble enters Munchkinland from the opposite direction. "

Mattopaedia (talk) 01:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I actually just finished watching the movie on DVD, and paid special attention to this ... the carriage that Dorothy rides in during the scene in Munchkinland actually follows the red brick road, and it leads straight up to the front steps of the Munchkinland Town Hall. TheWizardOfAhz (talk) 07:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] March Laumer made Ozma a lesbian?

I've only read the first five of the famous forty, but it seems to me that those books establish that Dorothy and Ozma are in a romantic relationship with each other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.162.144.64 (talk) 07:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a popular belief by adult readers in modern times, but it did not appear so to contemporary readers in Baum's time. Recently, with homosexual relationships becoming more acceptable many things which used to be acceptable behaviors between people of the same sex are no longer so. For example, if you watch the old Abbott and Costello films, you'll see that Bud Abbott thinks nothing of smacking Lou Costello's butt. Both of them were happily married with kids and no one ever attached a sexual meaning to it. However, today most straight men would not be caught dead smacking another man's butt--especially in a movie that would be seen by millions.
It's similar with kissing. Dorothy and Ozma think nothing of kissing each other throughout the Oz series. It was common in those days for close female friends and relatives, especially children, to kiss each other on the lips. It didn't mean anything until more modern times when lesbian relationships became slightly more acceptable, and suddenly the straight women realized that what they were doing could be taken the wrong way by observers.
Remember that Baum wrote these books in a very homophobic time. In fact, it has been speculated that Thompson made a few pokes at gays herself. I seem to recall a fairy character of hers who gathers firewood being described as a "faggoty fairy", and Prince Pompa of Kabumpo in Oz being appalled when his father tells him to marry her.
So Baum probably would not have been able to get away with inserting gay relationships in a children's book. The editors did require him to remove some other scenes from The Patchwork Girl of Oz (I think?) that were much less objectionable to the people of the time. And even if Baum could get away with making two of his most popular characters gay, I doubt that he would. He showed himself to be racially intolerant with his Native American genocide editorial in the Aberdeen Saturday Pioneer, and there are also insulting portrayals of many races throughout his non-Oz books (American Fairy Tales, Dot and Tot in Merryland, The Wogglebug Book, and even Patchwork Girl spring to mind.) So although he was ahead of the times with Women's suffrage, I don't think he would have been accepting of homosexuality.
Even in March Laumer's books, he portrays Ozma as a lesbian because she was raised as a boy, not because of the kissing. Dorothy herself thinks nothing of the kissing, remains ignorant of Ozma's true feelings, and goes on to marry a man. 172.162.40.192 (talk) 12:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)