Talk:La Marseillaise

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[edit] Order of the verses

I found much more pages in which the last verse begins with Nous entrerons than with Amour sacré. Araña de níquel 01:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 7th Nous entrerons (Couplet des enfants)

French President website Page cited in the article

france.diplomatie.fr Foreign affairs website Site cited in the article; same site as http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/

http://www.cndp.fr/actualites/question/marseillaise/suite.htm

http://www.lamarseillaise.info/

http://spaces.msn.com/members/temps/Blog/cns!1psctZp9-QIfTsdVM5w_QcNg!287.entry

http://geogate.geographie.uni-marburg.de/parser/parser.php?file=/deuframat/francais/2/2_3/sieburg/kap_6.htm

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/snd/lamarseillaise.html

http://www.adminet.com/marseillaise.html (cited in the article; verses are numbered from 0 to 6).

wikisource:La Marseillaise

[edit] 7th Amour sacré

http://www.marseillaise.org/english/francais.html (site cited in the article).

lb:La Marseillaise

[edit] Comments

The only site you ever needed to confirm this was http://www.elysee.fr/elysee/francais/les_symboles_de_la_republique/la_marseillaise/la_marseillaise.21106.html. —Cantus…☎ 01:54, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

I would say that the official site of the presidency of the republic is as definitive as it gets, so I believe we should revert to the old order. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:10, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

But the presidency is with the majority, so the original order is wrong. Araña de níquel 15:00, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reliability of Wikipedia

The wrong order was on Wikipedia from 22-Apr-2002 to 10-Apr-2005. Almost 3 years. It seems it's true that Wikipedia is not reliable.

Any comments?

Araña de níquel 15:22, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nobody's perfect. When you consult sveral reputable source on some subjects you will sometimes discover some serious factual errors in some, it happened to me recently. Ericd 20:28, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] April 25th?

"La Marseillaise" is a song written and composed by Claude Joseph Rouget de Lisle at Strasbourg on April 25, 1792.

Was it written in a single day? Or released on that day? --Bz2 19:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think he wrote it in a single night. However this might be a legend. Ericd 20:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Xenophoby

I doubt that xenophoby is a big polemic. Could anybody give me any reliable source about this subject ? If you look at the lyrics, i guess two sentences will be pointed out: "What! These foreign cohorts!" and "Let impure blood Soak the furrows". They first one refer to the geopolitic situation in 1792, when La Marseillaise as written. A lot of european monarchy had declare war to France at this time and the "foreign cohorts" are refering to their armies marching to conquer France. The "impure blood" refers to the aristocrat bloo which was supposed to be blue. It symbolised the inegality of the Ancien Régime. If you look at the historic situation in France in 1792, still during the Revolution, and if you consider La Marseillaise as a song representative of this situation, as it should be, you can not assert any xenophoby in the lyrics.

You're right. But the context has changed and the polemic was a fact. However the accession of Jean-Marie Le Pen to the second turn of presidential election in 2002 made that many people gave the lyrics their "original sense" as would have said Serge Gainsbourg. You can include your coments in the article. Ericd 17:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's what i'll do after having removed the english mistakes. Thanks

[edit] Nos bras / Vos bras

An anonymous has recently changed "Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras" ("They are coming into your midst") into "Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras" ("They are coming into our midst"). Though official executions of the Marseillaise will read "your", the song is often popularly sung with "our". It might be interesting to leave this as a footnote of some sort... Rama 07:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Perfectly glad to see a footnote, but clearly the official version is authoritative. -- Jmabel | Talk 15:36, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "La Carrière"

Interestingly, the expression "la Carrière" (often with a capital C) means a career in diplomacy; it might be worthwhile mentioning that here, it is not this expression which is used... I don't know how you'd integrate it :p Rama 08:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it's a career in the army here. Ericd 08:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

yes it is. I just say that the way they say it clashed with another expression. Rama 09:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Original Title

Its original name is "Chant de guerre de l'Armée du Rhin" ("Marching Song of the Rhine Army).

I don't know French, but doesn't "guerre" mean "war"? Where does "marching" come from? Josh Cherry 13:44, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Litterally, Chant de guerre de l'Armée du Rhin translates into Song of war of the Rhine Army. The sort of the song you sing while marching toward a battle. "Marching song" in English. Rama 14:06, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hornblower

Recent addition:

The song featured in the 1999 Hornblower film "The Frogs and the Lobsters", as it was sung by French villagers in defiance to the Colonel Moncoutant who had returned as part of an attempted Royalist invasion of France.

Is this really important enough to deserve a mention in an article about a national anthem? The Abel Gance film mentioned is easily one of the 100 most important French films of all time, and arguably one of the 10 most important French films of all time, so it belongs. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Similarly, Victory (movie). -- Jmabel | Talk 08:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Impure blood"

Im sorry but I think the current explanation in the article is "original researchish". Let's back this up, esp. since the author himself was a royalist. Ksenon 11:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is at least one claim (not something I'd consider citable) that it was a deliberate reversal of the nobility considering the blood of the people impure. If a citable discussion of this can be found on line, it's going to take some time, more than the few minutes I'm snatching right now in the middle of a workday. Yes, we could use a much better citation on this. Do keep in mind, though, that at that time one could be royalist but anti-noble. More than today, the royals were considered a class apart from the noblility. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This was further changed to something clearly false, so I have cut it:

In fact, the "impure blood" which is subject to controversy, is not the blood of foreigners, but the blood of common people in contrast to the "sang bleu", the "blue blood" of the aristocrat.

If this is to be taken seriously, the singers of the Marseillaise would have to view the commoners as their enemies! Folks, this was not the anthem of the royalist nobility! - Jmabel | Talk 02:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if the "impure blood" actually refers to the blood of common people in contrast to the aritocratic blood but if it does, it probably means somthing like "we'll fight for freedom, shall we die from it" I'm not sure that the "impure blood" actually refers to the blood of common people though. I always thought it was to be taken with a somehow sarcastic tone, meaning that the blood of those privileged who'd always clamed to be noble is actually "impure".

[edit] Anarchronism?

In 1882, Pyotr Tchaikovsky used extensive quotes from the Marseillaise to represent the invading French army in his 1812 Overture. This was an anachronism, as the Marseillaise was the French anthem in Tchaikovsky's day, but not Napoleon's.

Is this correct? La Marseillaise was the anthem (official or otherwise) during the Revolution, but not under Napoleon? What was used then? 71.156.15.166 20:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

See [1]. Apparently there were a couple of contenders (including the Marseillaise) but no generally accepted national anthem. - Jmabel | Talk 06:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other sections?

How do I link to the article like that: Belarusian Marseillaise? Should the new section be created, possibly? ---Yury Tarasievich 11:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand: as to how to link, from a technical point of view you just did it in your question. Could you try rewording this to explain what you are trying to do? - Jmabel | Talk 05:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, that was bit of a clumsy wording... I'd like to link the article on Belarusian Marseillaise here. What's the appropriate section to do this? Perhaps, a new section would be needed for that, named, e.g., "Marseillaise in other languages/cultures"? ---Yury Tarasievich 07:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably just a "See also" section immediately before "External links" - Jmabel | Talk 19:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. Looks somehow not right, though. What do you think? ---Yury Tarasievich 12:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Patrie

Is "motherland" a proper translation of Patrie? It comes from the Latin patria, from pater (father), meaning fatherland. It is related to the French pére (father), and the English patriarch. Anyway, I think "fatherland" is the right translation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lostcaesar (talk • contribs) 1 July 2006.

I agree with you on the parallel etymology, though "fatherland" in English has a very German connotation. The fact that we have no noun for a country derived from this Latin root makes it tricky. Other words off of the root—"patriot", "patriotism"—don't connect for an English speaker to "fatherland" but to "country". - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not a place for anti-French vandalism

I found a link to an "unofficial" anthem and it was about a crapper song. This is highly inappropriate for an encyclopedia article on national anthems. Bona Fides 13:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the intention was "anti-French". That is a well known 'rugby-song' so its inclusion could very reasonably be said to be noteworthy, and therefore worth inclusion in the section of this article under 'unofficial versions'. Therefore I dispute with the 'highly inappropriate' sentiment re encyclopaedic inclusion. Whether or not the inclusion would cause offence is another matter - but the purpose of encyclopaedae is to record the noteworthy, irrespective of perceptions of 'appropriateness'. Looking back at the removed link, it was from a well known (amongst French rugby circles) French language website [2], which, I think, does incline it to be included in respect of noteworthyness, rather than removed based on perceptions of appropriateness. This is not an excuse to include wanton abuse, of course, but there is a line between when something that may be seen by some to be abusive, and others to be merely 'fun'. And if the 'fun' becomes widely known, then it becomes noteworthy. What 'widely known' means is, of course, another question, but there is plenty in Wikipedia that is of minimal noteworthyness. I myself, merely write this as I think the reason for removal appears rather knee-jerk (that is how it is read), whereas those who know something of rugby (such as myself) will know otherwise. I vote for re-inclusion of the said removed reference - although its reinstatement could be better accompanied with a more descriptive reason for its inclusion, to prevent the appearance of it being gratuitous abuse. For those looking for the link, see here, and look for 'M' and "en Anglais". Those with opinions on this issue (either way) might also care to look at the football chant article --Phillip Fung 04:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arabic Version La Marseillaise

Site : http://ar.wikipedia.org/ (Arabic Wikipedia)
korean talk: 아랍어 발음을 잘 알고 있는 분이 계시면 음역을 해 주세요. 부탁드립니다.

انهضوا يا أطفال أرض أجدادنا,

اليوم وصل لنا المجد!

الذي خلصنا من الإستبداد

و الذي رفع رايته المدمّاة،

هل تسمع في الحقول

عواء هؤلاء الجنود المفزعين؟

الذين يأتون إلى وطنك

لحزّ حناجر أبنائك وأقرانك!

هيا إلى الأسلحة، أيها المواطنون!

شكّلوا كتائبكم!

دعونا نزحف، دعونا نزحف!

ربما تتلوث دمائنا

هيا أيها المواطن إنقع شقوق حقولنا!

ماذا يعني هذا الحشد من العبيد،

الخونة، وهم يخططون الى الغدر بالملوك؟

لمن هذه السلاسل الحقيرة

هذه الحديد الطويل المحضّر؟

للفرنسيون، لنا، آه! ياله من غضب,

يجب على من يغضب أن يثير!

نحن سوف ندمر خططهم

وسنرجعهم إلى العبودية القديمة!

vما هذا! ما هي هذه المجموعات الأجنبية!

هل يشرّعون القوانين في بيوتنا!

ما هذا! ما هي هذه الكتائب الجشعة

هل يريدون قتل مقاتلونا الشجعان الفخورين!

الملك الجيد! يأتي لنا بالأيدي المقيّدة

حاجبنا يختبأ تحت النيران

الطغاة الحقراء يصبحون,

سادة قدرنا!

إرتعدوا، أيها المستبدون والخونة

هذا هو خزيّ كل الرجال الجيدون،

إرتعدي! أيتها المخططات القاتلة

سيستلمون فقط جائزتهم,

ولكن جنودنا كلها ضدك

إذا سقط أبطالنا الشباب،

ستحمل لنا الأرض شباباً جديداً,

نحن مستعدون لخوض المعركة ضدك!

الفرنسيون، هم المحاربون الشهماء

إحمل أو إمنع ضرباتك!

أنقذ هؤلاء الضحايا الحزينين

لأنهم قد يأسفون لحمل السلاح ضدّنا،

لكن ليس هؤلاء الطغاة الداميين،

هؤلاء متواطئين بويلٍ،

كلّ هذه النمور القاسية

ستمزّق العدو خارج صدور أمهاتهم!

الحبّ الوطني المقدّس

يتقدّم و يدعم أسلحتنا الإنتقامية

الحريّة، الحريّة العزيزة،

قاومي أيتها الحرية مع مدافعيك

تحت أعلامنا، سنكافئ بالنصر

عجلي أيتها الحرية بزئيركِ الرجالي

لي يكون أعدائكِ, في أنفاسهم الأخيرة

إشهدي على نصرنا ومجدنا!

نحن سندخل ميدان المعركة

عندما لن يكون شيوخنا هناك,

هناك سوف نجد غبارهم

وعلامة امتيازهم.

لن يمنعنا حزننا على غبارهم

من الإشتراك في توابيتهم،

سيكون عندنا الفخر الرفيع

للإنتقام لهم أو لإتباعهم!

تمّ الاسترجاع من

[edit] Restricted link

A link to a restricted New York Times article was recently added as a reference. Would someone who has access to this please follow it and provide a proper citation (article name, author, date, page)? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 02:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

...and some propositions have been made to change the anthem or the lyrics. citation 3... vote for removal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.126.76.75 (talk • contribs) 7 March 2007.

[edit] lot of approximations

I think that there is a lot of aproximations in the translation:

Contre nous de la tyrannie	Against us, tyranny (approximative)
L'étendard sanglant est levé (bis)	Has raised its bloodied banner (repeat)

The ordened sentence in french is imo : « L'étendart sanglant de la tyranie est levé contre nous »

"The bloodied banner of tyrany is raised against us". After this, i don't have the skills for make it sound more "tricky" like it is in the french version.

The accurate English translation would be something like Free us from tyranny. The bloodied banner has been raised (repeat) (2 seperate sentences) Now in English it doesn't sound as good if you put it this way, but it really is more accurate because it keeps the ambiguity of the French version: you can't tell if the bloodied banner has been raised by tyranny against us, or if WE have raised the bloodied banner; and are confident that this banner which is ours shall free us from tyranny. which means that we've already started to fight against tyranny "hence the bloodied banner: we lost our blood fighting tyranny" I always thought that anyway, I was bemused when I read the English version (I thought : all these days, was it what it actually meant?) I don't think so after all.

C'est nous qu'on ose méditer

It is us they dare plan

I'm not sure here because i'm not sure of the meaning of "plan" here. But méditer is an old french works which don't mean the same thing today (méditer meant « médire » : "to slander " i think, and today it mean méditer like buddhist méditation).

Feraient la loi dans nos foyers!

They would make laws in our homes!

« Faire la loi » in french don't mean "make laws" (« faire les lois »). In french when you say that someone « fait la loi », it means that he is the "mastah", a stupid leader in a way. It sounds disparaging for the ruler

Tremblez, tyrans et vous perfides

Tremble, tyrants and traitors

Really aproximative imo.

Épargnez ces tristes victimes

Spare these sad victims

Here it is too litteral : « triste » don't have the meaning of "sad" here.

À regret s'armant contre nous (bis)

That they may regret taking up arms against us (repeat)

Same : « À regret » don't mean "they may regret" imo.

Mais ces despotes sanguinaires

But not these bloody despots

"bloody" means "damned" in english ? "Bloody" means really "bloody" (in the meaning of pouring blood) in french.

Amour sacré de la Patrie,

Sacred patriotic love,

« Patriotique » and « De la Patrie » don't really have the same meaning, but well, it's a detail.

Cordialy

-- Meithal 23:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Franco-Russian rapprochement

Should any mention be made of the occasion on which this song was played in Russia in front of the reactionary czar Alexandr III to celebrate the new Franco-Russian alliance/rapprochement? Brutannica 02:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

In the article, a blind link to http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F10612F9345E0C768CDDAA0894DA494D81 is given as a citation. This is a link to a site that requires an account and a login. Would someone who has access please modify this to a citation that gives article name, authorship, and date so that people can access it by other means (for example, through the Times index)? - Jmabel | Talk 04:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Theme music from an old computer game? Is this notable information?

I'd suggest removing this... hardly a notable usage of a national anthem, unless it created significant controversy:

Glass Joe from Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, a Nintendo Entertainment System boxing game, uses part of the song as his ring theme.

Mtford 23:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MP3 file

I don't like the version in the MP3 file linked to from this page. Isn't La Marseillaise supposed to be a lower tempo than that? 87.112.1.242 11:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] adapted from Viotti?

It has been recently added that the music was adapted from a work by Viotti. However, this work is titled "variazioni sulla marsigliese" (indicating that it is based on the Marseillaise, rather than the contrary). I was not able to find any other reference giving the same date of 1784. Incidentally, Viotti was in France during this period (1784 and 1792); he has probably been exposed to the theme and played around it. Besides, the Mozart connection is very well documented. Should we suppress this reference?--Toitoine 07:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

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