Talk:Kyokushin kaikan/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Logo

Doesn't kyokushin have a logo? Shouldn't it be here? When I was a kyokushin-karate-ka we had the calligraphy on our gi but the logo on our bumper sticker/newsletter/IKO membership certificate. It is an abstract representation of two hands joined together (from some high-level kata) --Taejo 21:02, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

You mean the kanku sign 81.11.221.63 09:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The kanku-sign and the calligraphie for the word "kyokushin"?

Oyama killed in self defence?

Oyama killed people in self defence - really? And if so, it does not have much to do with the effectiveness of the style. I find the text just a tiny bit biassed. Habj 17:57, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No one-hit-kill punch

There is no one hit-one kill punch! This refers to the fighting method and strategy and not to a specific technique. Ending a fight with a single strike is desired in most martial arts, not necessarily killing the opponent. For that matter, killing someone with a single strike is something anyone can do (think neck), a martial artist just has more options and can do it easier. It has nothing to do with skill, unless it is achieved by rapturing one's liver with a 3-inch punch in the middle of a fight or something similar. Fighting a huge animal (even if it is drugged, as is claimed by some) and killing it or breaking its horns with your bare hands is a demonstration of courage and skill. --62.254.128.4 03:13, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's actually just a poor translation of a difficult phrase to put into English. "Ichigeki Hissatsu" literally means "One blow, certain death". It is a common phrase in Japanese martial arts with wide connotation.

Response to the above critism

For the self Defense, and the one hit, one kill punch. Oyama has killed several people with his bare hands, and has killed bulls with the, one hit one kill punch. Proved beyond reasonable doubt this martial art can teach you how to kill people, and is effective in combat. It showed Oyama bptj survived, and Oyama has successfully used this legendary punch. It's not easy, as most regular people will break their hands attempting such a dangerious manuever, it is not recommanded most people try it. For historical purposes, this manuever has been associated with Oyama. As well as other moves Oyama has demonstrated his skill in such as, chopping off the tops off beer bottles, and breaking ice. --Masssiveego 05:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

the dude killed bears and bulls with his hands. you do that without training and then come back and say the art is ineffective.

This is totally untrue. Oyama killed ONE person, in self defence. Otherwise he killed NO ONE. He DID, however, have a helluva punch, which he used affectively throughout his life. IndependenceFreedom

Citizenship

I thought this guys citizenship was Korean and he lived in Japan. So he is not a Korean-Japanese. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.23.83.100 (talk • contribs) 06:14, 12 June 2005.

He was naturalized as a Japanese citizen. Feigenbaum 07:00, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How was he naturalized as a citizen, when citizenship in Japan up to past the time of his death was still based on heritage not where you lived or even where you were born. There are Koreans today that still can't get citizenship in Japan eventhough they were born in Japan and have never set foot in Korea. Did Japan make an exception for him cause he was such a Champion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.23.83.100 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 24 June 2005.

You are wrong. More than 200 thousand ethnic Koreans have naturalized. He was one of them. Feigenbaum 03:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The citizenship law was changed only after the mid 1980s, I thought he died in the 1990s. He couldn't have been a citizen in the 1960s or 70s or half way in to the 80s. Did they change the law for him in the 1960s, 70s or mid 80s.4.23.83.100 12:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

He travelled all over the world during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. What kind of passport did he carry with him? -- Toytoy 18:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

He changed name and citizenship in the early sixties, with the assistance of Matsuhei Mori, Member of Japanese Parliament. It was perfectly possible and not uncommon for Koreans to take Japanese citizenship. What IS NOT possible is DUAL citizenship. That is illegal in both Japan and South Korea. He traveled on a Japanese passport exclusively. IndependenceFreedom

Cyberdojo

I see that 137.132.3.11 made quite a large contribution, but what is "Cyberdojo home page" doing in there? MarSch 15:45, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Logo(2)

Logo seems to be there now, however the subscript isn't completely visible. Intinn 09:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


Article Improvement

It appears that some have been working on this article recently to try and improve it, but it appears to need some more work. I'll work on it myself, but I'll offer some suggestions here of what the article could probably use if others would like to help-out:

  • A short bio of its founder (Mas Oyama) under a "history" heading with a link to the Mas Oyama full entry plus more history of the style from its founding to the present day
  • More info on the technique of Kyokushin and influences from other styles
  • More on the "full-contact" aspect of the style since this is such an important part of Kyokushin and its influence on other full-contact styles, also, the role of full contact kumite in Kyokushin training and belt/grade testing
  • Info on the role and history of competition, challenges, and tournament participation in Kyokushin culture
  • Perhaps a list of major Kyokushin tournaments? (All-Japan, All-World, America's Cup, etc.)
  • Discussion of the 100-man kumite
  • Mention of notable Kyokushin practitioners and how many of them have started their own styles or become notable competitors in MMA organizations
  • Interaction of early Kyokushin students/instructors with other styles such as Muay Thai, "Kung Fu," Judo, etc
  • More on the succession controversy that has fractured Kyokushin into so many different organizations within Japan and around the world
  • Issues between Kyokushin, other karate organizations, and the International Olympic Committee over the inclusion of karate as an event in the Olympics
  • Some pictures of Kyokushin practioners engaged in competition and/or training
  • Kyokushin's portrayal in popular culture or in the media (Japanese manga, any movies that use Kyokushin fighters or techniques, the documentary "Fighting Black Kings," etc.)
  • Efforts by the "Kyokushin Union" to persuade Kyokushin dojo to leave the different IKO organizations and form a looser organization of more independent dojo

Kyokushin is such a major force (my POV, of course) in the karate and martial arts environment, that I think its entry should be larger and more detailed than it currently is, since Wikipedia is the de facto Internet encyclopedia. Check out the entries for Judo, TaeKwanDo, Hapkido, or Muay Thai to see good examples of entries on martial arts styles. cla68, 24 Mar 06

AGREED. This page needs lots of work and is currently too garbled with information unnecessary and not orderly. I suggest cleaning up the links section and adding more graphics/images to help with the verbiage clutter.

____________

May I humbly suggest that before any changes are made and unfounded rumors or anecdotes posted about Mas Oyama that his daughter be contacted first. You can contact her through the Tokyo Honbu +81 3 3988 0748 or her email kuristinao@yahoo.com. General discussion about Kyokushin is good of course, but matters concerning legalities, IP, Mas Oyama or any other potentially sensitive issue should be passed by her I believe. IndependenceFreedom

Oh really?

Sorry, but I really doubt this style has practitioners in the numbers that are wildly speculated on in the article. I've never even heard of the style before today, which suggests to me that the "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" is way off.

Yeah, I also have issues with the neutrality of the article. It is very clear from reading that the author was not only a practitioner but was of the opinion that Kyokushin is superior to other styles. 207.161.43.160 01:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Matt

If you count the number of practitioners claimed by all the organizations with "Kyokushin" in their name, plus all of the "offshoot" organizations, it probably is in the hundreds of thousands. I myself doubt the "millions" number, unless it includes everyone in the world who has ever practiced full contact karate, even if just for a short time, since 1954. This article doesn't receive edits or inputs very often. What it has now has been added little by little over about two years time by what appears to be many different editors. Some of them do better than others at writing in NPOV. If you see something wrong, please correct it. The article could really use more input. Cla68 17:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

__________

Talk of millions is due to the Tokyo Honbu records always including ALL members who ever joined. That easily capped twelve million over the last 50 years. The current numbers would be more like 100,000. It is nothing like it used to be. IndependenceFreedom

Kata

I have added a list of the northern katas, is it appropriate to make them dead links for now in the hope that someone will fill in instructions on the katas later?

--24.195.60.53 13:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Some Wikipedia community contributors don't like dead links in articles, but I don't think it's a big deal unless the article is being submitted for "featured article" status. It's great to see people contributing to and improving this article as time goes by. Cla68 15:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the ura kata should be described. They involve turning backward any time stepping in. It doesn't seem that they should get their own page, but I don't know if they are unique to Kyokushin. I am adding a description of ura kata and those explicitly listed plain text instead of links. if it would be more appropriate to add an Ura Kata page, and make these piped links. Pohart 02:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Mas Oyama vs his original Korean name

There's a certain Wikipedia contributor who appears dedicated to reminding everyone that Mas Oyama is a Korean by birth. The thing that he (or she) needs to remember, is that Mas lived most of his life in Japan, speaking the Japanese language, leading a Japanese organization with more than 90% Japanese members, and passed-away in Japan at the end of his life. His life and his karate style is a Japanese story, whether everyone accepts it or not. It's appropriate to mention that Mas Oyama was born in Korea with a Korean name originally. However, it's just as appropriate to write about his life as a member of Japanese society, which means using his Japanese name and nationality as his primary identifier. As far as I know, Mas Oyama went to his deathbed (in Japan) speaking Japanese to his Japanese disciples without repudiating his Japanese heritage and history. Revisionist or POV history does both his legacy, and his follower's legacy a disservice, and, in my opinion is both arrogant, myopic, juvenile, and inappropriate. If you don't agree, please state your case here and please sign-off with a user name instead of an anonymous IP address. Any questions? Cla68 04:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sosai Mas Oyama was also a naturalized Japanese citizen. Sakeshotz 11:40, 14 March 2007 (PST)

Gichin Funokoshi never taught Okinawan Karate. It was Chojun Miyagi that first assembled this style. Funokshi established the Shotokan Karate.

Yes, but Shotokan is originally Okinawan, just check the article. (Claudio Shodan 13:27, 13 May 2007 (UTC))

________________________

There is nothing wrong with mentioning Oyama's Korean birth. He DID choose Japanese citizenship and live his life in Japan, but he was born in Korea. He was proud of that heritage too. It is no big issue, so don't make it one. IndependenceFreedom

Bobby Lowe?

You placed Bobby Lowe under "Notable Kyokushin practitioners (former or current)"? He died long before the establishment of Mas Oyama's career! -- Toytoy 18:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

This link was incorrectly pointing at Bobby Lowe, the baseball player. There is another Bobby Lowe in Hawaii that is a Shihan within the Kyokushin IKO1 organization. Someone has made the correction to the link to a new page for Shihan Bobby Lowe. -- Sakeshotz 13:21 August 2006

Sparring (Kumite)

Over the time Kyokushin sparring rules have evolved becoming less dangerous for the participants but also distanced from "anything goes" competitions like modern MMA or even Muay Thai. Principle of staying "as close to real life fight as possible" was interpreted as sparing with full force while wearing no protection (no gloves or body armor). The fighters must condition entire body in order to withstand kicks and punches, at the same time elaborating even more powerful kicks and punches to defeat the opponent. The Kyokushin fighters achieve impressive striking power: i.e., Hiroki Kurosawa have demonstrated a 1.420 kg strong kick (http://superkarate.ru/record/h_record_speed.htm) and Franz Rasmussen was reportedly able to rip 4 bottlenecks with a single strike (http://superkarate.ru/record/h_record_tam.htm). Opponents need to be able to withstand impact of such force in order to survive the full-contact fight.

At the same time, the "wearing no protections" requirement rules out punch to the face (or neck) in the sport events like kumite competitions. Some prominent Kyokushin fighters insist additional boxing or kickboxing training is a must for Kyokushin practitioners (interview with Elena Vorobyeva, http://superkarate.ru/inter/inter_vorobyeva.htm).

These guidelines define Kyokushin fight. The opponents typically (but not always) fight in close distance, as there is no need to defend from head punches. "Clean" or "well-performed" techniques are not rewarded in any way; only way to assure victory is to actually knock down the opponent. The punches are usually short and quick, kicks are often low-kicks; elbows and knees are also used. Opponents try to fight with full power, using combinations of 2-3 elements (punch-punch-kick, kick-punch-punch or similar). Fights are physically exhausting, therefore experienced fighters tend to spare energy for later stages of the fight, hoping to defeat emaciated opponent.

In general, Kyokushin rules allow relatively "safe" full-contact sparing, minimizing possibility of head trauma. Critics usually argue that Kyokushin training develops wrong fighting skills - too little attention to head defense, too much focus on defending torso area, inappropriate fighting distance, undeveloped head punch skills. Proponents usually point out that experienced fighters after some boxing training are able to successfully participate in K1 and similar championships, and minimized head trauma attracts people who don’t want full contact fight but not permanent brain damage.

Category for Kyokushin Offshoots

Creating a category for Kyokushin Offshoots (Daido Juku, Seido Kaikan, Shidokan, etc.) would be a good idea. Hermeneus (user/talk) 07:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Images

This article could really use more images. If anyone who visits this article has some pictures of Kyokushin students training or participating in a tournament, please consider uploading and adding them to the article. If it's a picture that you took, then you can freely upload it. If it's a picture from your school or association's website, then you need to get clear permssion from your organization to upload it. If you're not greatly experienced with how the image policy and technical process works for Wikipedia, leave me a note on my talk page or here and I'll help you out. Cla68 01:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

How does one post images here? I have plenty of good ones. IndependenceFreedom

Contribution

Kyokushinkai karate Mas Oyama style must has developed over the year.Front facing,closed distance,stand up,semi-round house kick,dont pull back punches,low kicks and a lot of knees looks more Muaythai than typical Karate.He did go to Thailand,did not he? 1950's? Please give note.--203.113.34.11 19:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kyokushinkai.gif

Image:Kyokushinkai.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 00:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Belt colors

Are the obi colors here right? With us every karate-club has this order:

10th Kyu: orange belt
9th Kyu: orange belt with stripe
8th Kyu: blue belt
7th Kyu: blue belt with stripe
6th Kyu: yellow belt
5th Kyu: yellow belt with stripe
4th Kyu: green belt
3rd Kyu: green belt with stripe
2nd Kyu: brown belt
1st Kyu: brown belt with stripe
1st Dan: black belt
+one golden stripe for every dan

I think you can rely on these colours, since the shihans Beltran, Tabata and Shichinohe use the same ones.