Talk:Kwai Chang Caine

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[edit] intro

this pages still needs fact checking and citations. Califman831 07:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caine's name

For the record, here is a table which spells out Caine's Chinese name in the major dialects.[1] I have left it out of the main article, because I think it is overkill. The above website doesn't provide Zhangzhou accent. However, I have put it here to show how I arrived at the conclusion that Caine's name is based on Zhangzhou speech. The key evidence that it is Zhangzhou, and not Xiamen is the pronunciation chhiang as opposed to chhiong. Also, the 官 (Kwai) character is usually koan ([kuan]) or koaN ([kuã]) in Xiamen speech; however, there is precedent for a phonologic shift from koan or koaN to koaiN ([kuaĩ]), especially in Zhangzhou (look up 關 here or here). -- A-cai 13:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Mandarin Shanghai Xiamen Zhangzhou Chaozhou Hakka Cantonese
qian2 jji3 khian5 khian5 kiang1 kien2 kin4
guan1 gueu1 koaN1 koaiN1 guan1 fon4 gun1
chang1 caang1 chhiong1 chhiang1 ciang1 tsong1 cheung1

[edit] Original research

While I find the section on Caine's name interesting, without any sources the speculations it contains clearly constitute original research, which isn't allowed in articles. I don't want to see that section deleted (because it is well written and interesting), but I don't have the knowledge to fix it.

The best source would be the original script writer, who could explain the origins of the name "Kwai Chang". Likely it was just something somebody decided sounded Chinese enough and easy for Americans to remember and pronounce. Usually a Chinese given name means something. The few Chinese I have asked say "Kwai Chang" makes no sense for an actual Chinese name. -Amatulic (talk) 21:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I wrote that section, let me attempt to sort out verifiable fact from personal speculation:

verifiable facts:

In the third episode of season three ("The Small Beheading"), William Shatner's character presents Caine with a scroll that is written in Chinese. As the camera pans down the scroll, we see the Chinese characters for Caine's name for the first time in the series[1]:

Chinese English Zhangzhou accented Amoy (POJ) Mandarin (Pinyin)
虔 Caine Khiân (IPA: [kʰɪɛn]) Qián (IPA: [tɕʰiɛn])
官 Kwai Koaiⁿ (IPA: [kuaĩ]) Guān (IPA: [kuan])
昌 Chang chhiang (IPA: [tɕʰiaŋ]) chāng (IPA: [tʂʰɑŋ])
  • note: in Chinese, the surname is written first


The Zhangzhou accented Amoy pronunciation of the characters seems to most closely match the English spelling of Caine's name[2]. In the series, Caine was supposed to have attended the Shaolin Temple in Henan province. The priests at the temple would most likely have spoken Mandarin[3].

speculation based on known facts about Caine's character and Chinese and American history:

From the above, we may infer one of two possibilities:

  1. The series staff member who wrote the scroll was a native Amoy speaker[4], and not overly concerned that viewers might pick up on such a subtle point[5].
  2. Caine's mother was from Amoy (Zhangzhou is just west of Amoy)[6], which was China's main port in the 19th century for exporting tea[7]. Caine's father would have likely met and fallen in love with her there[8]. If Caine's father had spent enough time in Amoy, it is likely that he would have been given a Chinese surname[9]. The Chinese character for such a surname would have a pronunciation in the local dialect that matches the English surname, and thus would not necessarily be representative of a typical Chinese surname[10]. This Chinese surname would have then become Kwai Chang's surname, which can be corroborated from a linguistic point of view, since it may be argued that 虔 is not a Chinese surname, but that its pronunciation in Amoy (IPA: [kʰɪɛn]) closely matches the English surname of Caine (IPA: [kʰein]).
In order for the second scenario to work:
  1. Caine would have had to learn Mandarin[11] (which is not mutually intelligible with Amoy[12]).
  2. Caine would have had to travel from Fujian to Henan[13] (a distance of approx. 1100 km[14]).
The most likely explanation could be that Caine's maternal grandfather was a Mandarin speaker living in Henan. Either Caine's mother moved to Henan to be with her grandfather after her husband died, or Caine's grandfather arranged for the boy to live with him after Caine's mother died. In the pilot episode, it was the grandfather who taught young Caine proper manners. Part of the grandfather's tutoring could have included instruction in Mandarin.[15] In the episode 'The Tong', Caine also communicates in Cantonese with the leader[16]. Cantonese was the most frequently spoken Chinese dialect in the American west of the 19th century[17]. It is entirely possible that Caine learned Cantonese so that he could communicate with his fellow Chinese.[18]
  1. ^ Watch the DVD
  2. ^ Information about the pronunciation of the Chinese characters in various dialects is available in a variety of dictionaries and other linguistic studies.
  3. ^ See Zhongyuan Mandarin.
  4. ^ speculation
  5. ^ speculation
  6. ^ speculation
  7. ^ See the article for Amoy (Xiamen).
  8. ^ speculation
  9. ^ speculation
  10. ^ Not a controversial statement, but I'm not sure if a specific citation is available.
  11. ^ speculation
  12. ^ linguistic studies could be cited for this.
  13. ^ speculation
  14. ^ easily verified
  15. ^ all wild speculation.
  16. ^ check the DVD
  17. ^ easily verified
  18. ^ speculation
Here are some sources for the linguistic stuff:
Hope this helps. I do engage in speculation in this section, but all of the speculation is based on citable facts. That may not be enough to keep some of it in. If it needs to be cut, I won't be heartbroken. I wrote it for fun, not for some serious academic purpose. I agree that the only way to really know for sure would be to interview the show's creators. -- A-cai (talk) 14:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that helps, thanks. Unfortunately, some of what you wrote might be considered synthesis, where you draw conclusions from various sources that don't individually support that conclusion. I can tell you enjoyed writing it, and I enjoyed reading it. From an original research standpoint, however, the speculation doesn't belong in the article.

Another speculation (that I mentioned above) is that the name "Kwai Chang" may have simply been inventive without any knowledge of the Chinese language, to sound good on a TV show. The fact that four different Chinese speakers I have asked said it's meaningless for a name indicates that this may be the case. I wouldn't put that speculation in the article, however, because I have no real source to back it up. -Amatulic (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)