Talk:Kvenland

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[edit] Origin of the name Kainuu

Related article about the Origin of the name Kainuu is now available. --Drieakko 20:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word "Finn" for Sami people

User Borath, please read articles Sami people and Sápmi to get more information on the usage of the word "Finn" about Sami people. The word has been used very extensively in Norwegian up until the 20th century. --Drieakko 20:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

In Norway we have two traditional names for the Sami-people; "Same" and "Lapp".

The claim that the Norwegians have used "Finns" to describe "Lapps" stems form the word Lapp-Finns, foremerly used in Sweden, by people foreign to northern Sweden, where the name is "Same" and "Samar" (plural) or "Lapp" and "Lappar" (plural).

The claim that Norwegians used "Finns" to describe "Lapps" is entirely based on a misunderstanding. Unfortunately; using a misunderstanding to verify a misunderstanding doesnt make the conclusion an understanding.

The rest of this page also appears to be a mix of understanding and misunderstanding - with general conclusions that are unsubstantiated as well as speculative. Thus the entire page simply presents itself as the result of an unestablished private research. (Borath 23:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC))

I am sorry, but this is not correct at all. All historical Norwegian documents use the word Finn for Sami people, and it is still a common word in Northern Norway, though somewhat politically incorrect. The word "Lapp" started to gain ground only in the 19th century as a loan from Swedish (who had loaned it from Finnish) and Same is a 20th century word. I hope this discussion is not heading to claims that they were Finns all this time. --Drieakko 01:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is Oslo University online Norwegian dictionary for you, please search for "finn" there: [1]. This discussion was already once active on this page, see archive 2. And btw, the Swedish plural for Sami people is "samer". --Drieakko 02:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You still keep refering to the term; 1)"lapp-finnar", and the synonymous expression 2. "fjell-finner". They both refer to the Sami-people, as an own etnicity and culture - but with a language similar to the Finnish (Uralic) tongue. Thus we have had local variations of the names given to the Sami poplations of northern Sweden and Norway.

Though, what you write about the term "Lapp"/"Lapp-", as a word used only in Sweden before the 19th century is wrong. The official term used by the Norwegian authorieties was "Lapp", "Lapper", "Lappene" - already during the 17th century. Please see the classics of "Speculum Boreale" (1698) and "Lappe-codicilen" (1751) - and you may get a more thorough and real understanding of the matters of which you claim to have an expertisè.

Unfortunately, using an outdated, Norwegian dictionary as a source of reference just doesn't do. Especially when the source iteself states that the origin of the name "fjell-finn" is "unknown". Then you would normally have to look for other and better sources - and definitly refrain from using it as a source of historically relevant and valid information; to back up a statement in a lexical article. Otherwise we have to start insisting that you please enlighten the reader of these pages on where and when you received an academical training.

(Borath 17:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC))

The dictionary is by the Oslo University and it says that "finn" means the same as "same". Whether Oslo University knows what Norwegian language is, is not a debate within Wikipedia. But you can pick any other Norwegian dictionary as well and it is there as well. I am still missing the point here. --Drieakko 18:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
About the two publications you mentioned. "Speculum Boreale" is written by Hans Lilienskiold who was from a Danish family but born in southern Norway, He said e.g. that Finnmark was named after kings called Finne; he also found ruins of their former residences. "Lappecodicilen" is the treaty between Denmark-Norway and Sweden defining their northern border. I have not read either one. --Drieakko 19:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly rigth, you keep missing points - to persist your biased views.

The point in question is that the University of Oslo doesnt say that "Finn" equals "Same". It say's that "-finne" is a suffix, to "Fjell-" that joined together expresses the semantic intent of "mountaineer" + "finn", which litterally describe a "mountain-man-with-Finnish-tongue".

The Swedes uses the clothes of the sami as a marker, as "Lapp" means "patch", in refering to the patch-work which characterizes the style of sewing that makes the Sami's characteristic ("national") dresses. Thus the Swedes uses "Lapps" to name the Sami and "Lapp-finne" to add a description of their language in the description of A Sami person. Just as the coastal culture of the Norwegians adressed the "Mountain-Finns" to be distinctivly different from the regular "Finns".

The "Finne-konge" of the arctic north of Norway was definitly of Finnish and not of Sami etnicity, as it was used together with the old term "Kven" as in "The Kven-konge", refering to the "King of Finns" AS the "King of Kvens" as well as the "king of the Bjarme".

Consequently they reffered to the "Finne-Konge" as the common king of both the Kven and the Bjarm, as they were of the same basic etnicity, culture and language. Just like the Queen of England today can be called the regent of the Anglia, the Humbria, the Wales, the Ireland and the Scotland. Now, if an American tourist visit Scotland he get to hear that Elisabeth II is "The Queen of Scots". Visiting Dublin he then gets the explanation that "Elisabeth II is our Queen". Do you think he would write home that "the Brittish Isles have several kingdoms. And they are all calling their queenS Elisabeth II"?!

Looking at the way you investigate the history of the arctic north I would say he migth do. Moreover, to an ignorant audience back home his message could become a "written document" explaining a "strange habbit of these islanders". Just like an ignorant use of old texts describing the arctic north can be used to create and "document" a picture of the arctic populations, that produce nothing but a massive confusion.

The plain material of the arctic circumference is giving a much more clear picture han you seem to advocate. Already from the Neolithic societies we have had "Finns" to the east and "Swedes" to the west of the old borderline between the eastern and western cultures of Scandinavia, that being the north-south axis of the TORNE River, the Botnic Bay and the Botnic Ocean.

Follow that line down south and you will divide Eastern Europe from Western Europe. Historically we had "Saxons" and "Danes" to the west - and "Wends" or "Vens" to the east.

East of the Baltic Ocean we had "Vend-land", where is today the "Baltic states". North of this Vend-land we have always had the Finnish Gulf ("Finska Viken" (Swedish), "Finske-bukta" (Norwegian) and "Vinlands-Golfen" (mythos). East of Finland we still have "Väne-jä", the Finnish name or Russia.

North of Finland we had the northern "Vener", called "K-vener" to distrinct this branch of the Finns as the northern, versus the southern "Vener"/"Vender". Thus we had "Ven(d)-land" down south and "K-Ven-land" up north.

Present results from the European Genome Project have clearly confirmed this "early spread" of the Uralic population, east of the mentioned N-S axis.

In completing the direction of The Torne River you may get to find the border-area between the traditional KVEN-LAND and the respective "SVEA-LAND" and - to the north-west; "NOR-VEG". The traditional border of the Viking Norwegians were met at "Bjark-ey" - just north of Lofoten, where the trade with the KVENS (and not the Sami) used to start.

Thus the city of Troms-ey (Tromso) signifies the general meeting-area of the various rivers and routes that towed the actic treasures (hide, fuhr, lamp-oil, tar, etc.) out of the high north and down to the larger societies of middle age Europe.

The area north of Tromso was never considered "Norwegian" - but "Kvenland". Along the northern coast and inland - it went all the way to "Gandvik" in the White Sea. East of that sea the Viking traders would find the "Bjarmi" and "Bjarmeland", who were of the same etnicity and culture (trappers and traders) as the Kven. Easy of "Gandvik" they would find "Holmgard" as the Bjarmis capitol centre. In Greek sources it was named "Bjarmia". Later that became "Permia" and "Perm" - in modern slavonic - with "Arch Angelsk" as the new capitol - as the Greek-Orthodox took over Vend-land, Ros-land and Bjarme-land - while the Roman-Catholic powers expanded into Scandinavia, Finland and - ultimately - Kvenland.

In that process the reindeer-herders of the mountains were hardly touched. As small and "remote" populations the Churches of Istanbul and Rome did not even recognize their produce as worth while taxing. Thus the Sami populations escaped the "Christianisation" - and the consequent taxation - until the end of the 18th century.

In an old Norse language, as still spoken on Iceland, the word for Sami is "Lapp" (plural "Lappir"). IF a group of "Lappir" would speak Mongolian or Inuit, he would NOT be called "Finn-lapp" - but rather "Eskimo". Either you call such a person a "Finn-lapp", a "Lapp-finn" or a "Fjell-finn" he would have to be speaking a Finno-Ugrian language - although he migth have a different etnic background. The Sami popualtion were simply the westernmost branch of the "mountaineers" of the Himalayan area - from were a arcticly adapted population were able to follow the Ural Mountains up north as the ice-age ceased. From here they spread to both the east and west - circumferencing the North Pole, as soon as the climate allowed them to. According to the genetic trails their arrival in Fenno-Scandia is estimated to have happened between the 5th and 7th millenias BP. Their first major centre to the west of the White Sea was made at Lake Enari, in the very north of old Kvenland. Thus the later branches of the Sami people all learned to communicate with the indigenous "lowlanders" and traders of this area - as the sami-settlers became the "mountain neighbours" to the woodlanders, trappers and traders known as the "northern branch of the Finno-Ugrian peoples" - also called "Kvens".

Have a happy celebration of the First Full Moon after a new Spring Equinox!

(Borath 20:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC))

Thank you for the long post. I will need some time to think about it. As for the good old dictionary, this is the description of the word "finn" there:
finn m1 (norr finnr, uvisst opph) mest dial: same fjellf- reindriftssame
which means that "finn" is the same as Sami in most of the dialects and "fjellfinn" is the same as the reindeer-breeding Sami. Etymology not clear. Happy Eastern to you as well! --Drieakko 04:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be a common misunderstanding in the Kven/Kvenland discussion that all Sami have always been reindeer herders, and only lived in what now are the Sami core areas. Perhaps this article should have a section about the Sami and how references to them can be mistaken to be about Finnish people/ Kvens?Labongo 05:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
About the theory that Finn is used about "Himalayan mountaineers" talking a Finno-Ugric language. First, at the time when the names appeared I doubt that they were aware of the linguistic connection between the Finnish and Sami languages. Second, the Sami Mongolian connection has been genetically proven to be wrong. Labongo 05:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] B-Class?

The article is currently rated as a B-Class article. I believe this article is good enough to receive a better rating. I will therefore suggest that the main contributor User:Drieakko nominates this article as a Good article candidate.Labongo 17:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but B class is already a good level. The article is somewhat unbalanced with its extensive usage of primary sources, which resulted from the incident with the now-banned "Kven user", pushing nonsense into this and other articles that could not be tackled in any other way than getting to the original material. IMO, the article is in its current shape very informative, but not GA quality by Wikipedia's definition of the class. --Drieakko 13:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research?

The article stresses disproportionally a view that ancient Kvenland was most probably situated in SW Finland. No references are given. The established research (Vahtola, Julku etc.) firmly situate Kvenland in Northern Finland. This view is mentioned, but presented in a dismissive way. It seems that the article is highly POV and contains a lot of original research by Drieakko. Drieakko's obvious expertise on this matter might very well mean that his theory needs to be taken seriously, but should he/she publish it first somewhere else?--130.234.5.136 08:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for comments. Article browses through all the primary sources that are scattered here and there, in detail. Sometimes the line between original research and presentation of sources goes thin, but the target is naturally to keep it neutral. Please point out chapters that need fixing.
The reason for the current approach is that such a huge amount of utter nonsense is published on this issue, making claims that are beyond anything that is given in sources. You can check the Talk Page archives what was the result of that before the approach went for the primary material. Theories about Kvenland are summarized at the end, making room for Vahtola, Julku, Klinge and others. IMHO, Julku's speculative theory about Kvenland (which due to its nationalistic undertones has its firm supporters) would need an article of its own just to get that properly presented. At the end of the day, it is not as strange as his claims about Finns being the first people in all northern Europe, but on close inspection not very far. --Drieakko 08:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
In some places, you start analyzing the texts and presenting conclusions that might seem self-evident, but perhaps are not. Indeed, I find some of your conclusions rather speculative. Certainly they are not just "presentation of sources". This is original research in my view. On the other hand, it seems to be research of professional quality, so please publish it.
Moreover, the Kvenland problem is not just about the textual sources, it is also about linguistics, archaeology, toponymic evidence and so on. It is not necessarily a bad thing to make interpretations that go beyond the meagre written evidence.
And I should like to point out that whatever ideological commitments professors Julku and Vahtola might have, their theories of Kvenland have been reproduced in Swedish and Norwegian studies that cannot possibly have a Fenno-nationalistic agenda. And, anyway, scientific criticism does not belong to Wikipedia.--91.153.112.198 17:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Your opinions are appreciated, but I disagree with your remarks that the parts of text that you have removed would contain original research. It is not sufficient to label text as original research only if it points out undisputed facts, even though the same facts would have been bluntly ignored by some researchers. However, the article needs a face-lift overall, especially regarding text reorganization that does not currently separate historical and legendary saga sources from each other. And btw, I'd kindly recommend you to join Wikipedia with a username. Acting with multiple IPs is not the best possible position to start an argument. --Drieakko 16:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, your comment of "undisputed facts" being "bluntly ignored" might be partially justified, but it is scientific criticism that does not really belong to Wikipedia. It is at least theoretically possible that some dubious details in the confused old texts should be ignored to get a more balanced overall view. Your version, however, stresses tendenciously certain details (or rather a certain interpretation of the said details) in the textual evidence, suggesting quite openly and directly that the well-established theory of the northern Kvenland is incorrect. And you cannot seriously claim that "Thorolf went eastwards" leads into "Kvenland was in SW Finland" without a tortuous chain a conclusions. If this is not original research, then what is?
If the idea is just to present the relevant materials, I think it is best to let the reader make his/her own conclusions without pseudo-neutral commentaries.
I realize, of course, that the present article with all its bias is a huge improvement compared to the bizarre fringe theories championed by the "Kven User". Thank you for your suggestion, I'll register an username next time.--128.214.17.121 09:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)--Username registered.--Kirmukarmu 11:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Here is a citation from Wikipedia rules: "An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions."--217.112.249.156 08:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finnish tribes in the area

This article is excellent!!

Finlands history is unfortunately being interpreted with biased Scandinavian nationalism and socialdarwinism, so it's great to read articles that deal with Finlands history in this serious manner.

I think it should be noted that there were several Finnish tribes (that today are known as Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Veps, Ingrians, Votes and Livs) along the whole northeastern Baltic sea. The Livs lived in what is today Latvia and probably had good connections with the neighbouring Baltic tribes. It gives support to the raid against Svitjod. Depending on sources, the ones that sacked the Swedish capital were mainly Karelians and/or Estonians. With a little help from their southern Curonian friends?

Furthermore, there is modern support (in the form of DNA research) to the sagas that the founding kings of Norway could very well have come from what today is Finland. Genetic studies confirms that the inhabitants of southwestern Finland were of the same Haplogroup as is the most common in Norway, I1A. As todays Finnish language contains a great deal of Indo-European loan words, it's only reasonable to assume that they originate from the IE speaking peoples of those days. On what other language could Thorolf have met and talked to King Faravid?

Mythology in combination with genetic data reveals more; According to Ynglingasagan the inhabitants that became the Danes, that became the coastal Swedes and Norwegians, came from the east. The most common Haplogroup of these peoples is R1B, very common in eastern Europe.

Balticbandit (talk) 21:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gotland?

"the king Fornjót that 'reigned over Gotland, which we now know as Finland and Kvenland'".

I'm probably altogether mistaken here but could the text be referring to the Ostrogoth kingdom which the Huns conqured or demolished in the 4th century. After that the northen areas of Russia and the areas east of Scandinavian in general were inhabited by Finno-Ugric peoples until the Slavic expansion. By the early Middle Age, the closest areas to Scandinavia in the east were still inhabitated by Finnic peoples in Kvenland and Finland among other places. I'm not saying that any accurate historical account would have existed at the time but certainly anybody who had even a vague picture of the history of the Roman Empire and its decline and the role the Goths had been playing, and who by then knew who lived next to the in the east, could reconstruct a history that follows what's described above: "long ago we had these Goths (of whom we have legends) in the east but then they went to conquer Europe and now we have these Finns and Kvens in the east instead". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.27.70.16 (talk) 15:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)