Talk:Krste Misirkov

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This text presents a distorted view of Misirkov's life. While he did declare himself a Bulgarian several times throughout his life, he returned to Macedonian positions at the end of his life. [1] --FlavrSavr 21:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

It is easy to pick some quotes made "Later in life" (or fabricated after death) to present one point of view. The article is about the person and his entire life. The site (in the Serbian-based orthography which KM never used) is not convincing as an impartial reference. Presenting both points of view is needed for balance. Sysin

Here's the same text in English. [2] I think we should lay out the facts from his life, and then present both views. --FlavrSavr 22:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 The book was written in Macedonian, not Bulgarian 2 Once and for all! 3 Misirkov diary found 4 Original texts 5 Revert 6 Nationality 7 dubious sources 8 Unsourced information

[edit] The book was written in Macedonian, not Bulgarian

The author explicitely states that: Како последуач на идеiата за полно отдел'аiн'е на нашите интереси од интересите на Балканцките народи и за самостоiно културнонационално развиiаiн'е, iас и iе написаф на централното македонцко наречiе, коiе за мене от сега на тамо имат да бидит литературен македонцки iазик. [3] --FlavrSavr 16:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Translation: As a further mark of my support for the idea of completely separating our interests from those of the other Balkan peoples and independently continuing our own cultural and national development, I have written the book in the central Macedonian dialect, which from now on I shall always consider the Macedonian literary language. [4] --FlavrSavr 16:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Macedonian dialect he considered a dialect of Bulgarian. Matter of upgrading a Bulgarian dialect to a languge in its own right? By the way that is not real script of the book, rather in the Serbian alphababet of 1945. He used the old Bulgarian alphabet. FunkyFly 23:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Funkyfly, dont be so ignorant. Maybe you already know, maybe not, that an exact "photocopy" edition (or how should I call it) of the original "On Macedonian matters" has been published long time ago and its widely available (I own one myself). I strongly beleive u can find it in any bookstore or library in Bulgaria too. Let's leave aside the discussion whether there's a macedonian language or it is just a dialect of the bulgarian language for now, and stick to the facts.
A fact is that the book is:
- not written in a standard Bulgarian alphabet,
- not written in a standard Bulgarian language

Actually Misirkov uses phonetic alphabet in his book as Flavrsavr properly quoted contrary to the standard bulgarian alphabet. For example Misirkov uses: Македониіа (Makedonija), Бугариіа (Bugarija), Грциіа (Grcija) for Macedonia, Bulgaria and Greece respectively contrary to the bulgarian: Македония, България, Гърция.
You don't have to be an academic from Oxford or Cambridge to notice the difference. Misirkov uses "і" exactly in a same way we use "ј" (sounds like Y in Yellow)

Again, as Flavrsavrs correctly pointed out previously, Misirkov intentionally took the central dialects as a base for the standard macedonian language (probably beacuse they were less influenced by the neighbouring languages) and so Misirkov is actually a predecesor of the alphabet and language reform that will take place after the WWII in Republic of Macedonia when letters such as: Я, Щ, Ъ and others were removed while letters like Ѓ, Ќ, Њ and the unique Ѕ (DZ) were added.
For all those who may say: well that was actually a "serbianisation", I will point out to the following quote from the article Macedonian alphabet
QUOTE:
With the codification of the Macedonian literary language in 1944, the alphabet adopted was ultimately based on that of Vuk Karadžić's phonetic alphabet. This has subsequently lead to calls of "serbianisation", particularly from Bulgarian linguistics. However, the rationale for adopting a phonetic alphabet can be alternatively explained by looking at earlier Macedonian texts, namely, the book On the Macedonian Matters by Krste Misirkov.

In it, Misirkov uses the combinations г' and к' to represent the phonemes /ɟ/ and /c/. In addition, the letter i is used where ј is used today.

The letters 'љ', 'њ' and 'џ' are undoubtedly of Serbian origin, but their predecessors are clearly illustrated in Misirkov's book as л' and н' and even earlier in other texts as ль and нь.

Today, the letter 'ѕ' is unique to Macedonian, it is, however, much older and is found in the early Cyrillic alphabet.(end of quote)

So what "serbian post-1945 alphabet" are you talking about all the time then? you see clearly that the modern macedonian alphabet is much based on what Misirkov did almost half century before Tito and Blaze Koneski(and just btw, Tito was a 1/2 Croat/Slovene, its rather entertaining when Bulgarian side calls his policies "serbo-communist" lol)

Also, regardless of Misirkov's ambivalence concerning his ethnicity which is obvious throughout his works, in this particular book "On Macedonian Matters" he clearly, I mean CLEARLY and UNDOUBTELY advocates MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE. He intentionally wrote it in central dialects, he intentionally uses an alphabet different than the Bulgarian so no need to discuss that, he wrote it in Macedonian language. Thats what the author himself says.--Vbb-sk-mk 19:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Macedonian language is merely a (thick) Bulgarian dialect from the South. Any linguistic study will easily confirm that. Now that Macedonia (FYROM) exists as an independent entity, it can finally claim to have its own distinct official language. This, however, does not change the fact that it is a Bulgarian regional dialect turned into a language. What is most important here is that the work of the Macedonian intellectuals such as Misirkov & Co need to be seen in the context of the the revival of regional cultural autonomy in their time. Their push for writing in their own regional dialect is nothing strictly confined to Macedonia but can be found throughout Europe. In Norway for instance, based on such initiative, there has been created a second official language based on North-Western dialects.

[edit] Once and for all!

If whoever from the country who's capital is Skopje wishes to sneak in pejorative terms like "Aegean" Macedonia, s/he will be considered a vandal and reverted at sight by the whole wikipedian community. The official policy of WP, is to use the most frequent or self-identifying name. Greek Macedonia IS more frequent (I won't even google it for you). Simply "Macedonia", IS the self-identified name of 2.6 million Macedonian Greeks. We choose Greek Macedonia (like the main article Macedonia (Greece) because, unlike you, we have WP:AGF and we disambiguate. Now get over it and stop ultra-nationalistic propaganda!  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 20:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Niko, the funny thing is: Your Greek government calls ethnic Macedonians "Skopjans" and the Republic of Macedonia "Skopje." Hmmm... that is NOT the self-determined name now is it! Well, doesn't that mean the Greek government needs to "get over it and stop ultra-nationalistic propaganda!?" Maktruth (talk) 02:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Misirkov diary found

Misirkov's diary was uncovered in a Bulgarian antiquity shop. It is now going to jointly be published in Bulgaria, Macedonia and Russia. Its authenticity has been confirmed by Bulgarian and Macedonian experts. In his diary, Misirkov clearly identifies himself as a Macedonian Bulgarian, much to the dislike of the Macedonian press and other political circles in Skopie, taking a strong anti-Bulgarian stance. http://news.netinfo.bg/?tid=40&oid=995281 http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1&EditionID=994&ArticleID=65533 220.233.208.218 14:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

A sign that Skopjie is starting to backpedal on the (ludicrous) "we're not Bulgarians, never have been" stance? Skopjian historians and archaeologists have, in the recent past, been proven quite good at "finding" artifacts that fit their government's needs, at a moment's notice. With about 1,000 Bulgarian passports being issued to Vardaris each month, and BG being used as the FYR's "backdoor" to the EU, the old hard-line is becoming hard to maintain. sys < in 10:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Better to stick to verifiable claims only and stress that the diary is going to be publish by Macedonian and Bulgarian State Archives. That's really good news.--Michkalas 12:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original texts

Where can we find his original text in cyrillic? Preferably on line and especially, On Macedonian Matters. As for and 'the Self determination of Macedonians' there is a link to both Cyrillic and English texts, but is the Cyrillic version the original one, or has it been adapted to spoken Bulgarian or Spoken Macedonian? Thanks. Politis 16:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The second external link is the original text of On Macedonian Matters.   /FunkyFly.talk_  17:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks FunkyFly, you also provided the cyrillic text for 'On Macdonian Matters'. Is this the original text as written by Misirkov, or a transfer into a currently spoken language? Politis 18:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It claims to be the original text, with no adaptation.   /FunkyFly.talk_  18:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Great. I have the impression - and it really is only an impression - that when Misirkov speaks of a Macedonian language, he does not mean a separate language from Bulgarian, but rather like some Greek authors from Crete, Corfu or even Cyprus who wrote in Cretan, Corfiot or Cypriot. They do not mean they are writing in a language that is 'not Greek' but that they are proud of their local Greek dialect. In this way, Misirkov seems to be proud of his local Bulgarian dialect; just like other Bulgarians are proud and anxious to preserve their regional variations of the language.Politis 19:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Whatever he meant, I dont know. But for sure he has changed his ideas so often in his life that to a great extent the crediubility of his arguments, whatever they might support, is lost.   /FunkyFly.talk_  19:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Have you thought about the possibility that he didn't change has arguments, but only the INTERPRETATION of his writings by the Bulgarian propaganda has been changing the meaning of his points!? Andrevski, 2007.

LOL, poor guy, perhaps he would go crazy if he lived today and simply emigrate to the US, and play slightly depressing country and western songs, just to forget. Politis 19:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You know guys, Misirkov anticipated your discussion above (in 1907!!), and on page 4 (preface) in his book "On the Macedonian matters" he makes the following point: "I am a Macedonian and this is how I see the position of my country: it is not Russia or Austro-Hungary that are the enimies of Macedonia, but Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Our country can be saved from ruin only by struggling fiercely against these states". Later in the book he explains this position in more detail, so please read it for a change. (December 24, 2007, Andrevski).

[edit] Revert

I reverted to the last edit that followed the "View in A", "View in B" structure. Please use the talk page before making such drastic edits. Thanks. sys < in 05:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Followup: I reviewed the changes and they are all acceptable, except the titles of the sections. I have maintained the old titles which accurately describe the sections for what they are: two interpretations of the same subject. Other than that, I have reverted my revert. sys < in 09:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality

The nationality of Misirkov is contested. Please do not one-sidedly insert categories which qualify him one way or another. Mr. Neutron 15:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] dubious sources

What is this http://www.kroraina.com/ website that is referenced as a "source" in the Bulgarian POV part? its not used only here but in many other Macedonia-related articles around. it says the author is some Vassil Vassilev Karloukovski. Who is he? The introduction page seems like some 1990s personal website on geocities. I also checked his bio, it says:

• 25.02.1970 - born in Sofia, Bulgaria
• 1983-1987 - National Mathematical High School "Acad. L.Chakalov", Sofia, class in Physics
• 1987-1992 - Sofia University "St. Kliment Ohrydski", M.S. in Physics with specialization in Geophysics
• 1993-1995 - Geophysisist at the Geomagnetic Department, Geophysical Institute, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
• 1995-1996 - Research Associate at the Geomagnetic Department, Geophysical Institute, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
• awarded the Lord Zuckerman studentship of the University of East Anglia, Norwich, and since April, 1996 I am a post-graduate student under the supervision of Dr Barbara Maher and Dr Mark Hounslow. The title of my research project is 'Palaeomagnetism and magnetostratigraphy of the volcanic and sedimentary rocks from the Momchilgrad Tertiary depression, the Eastern Rhosopes's mountains.' The project started as a pure palaeomagnetic one, aiming at solving the current discrepancy between the Bulgarian and Greek palaeomagnetic data on the Tertiarty tectonics of the Rhodopes mountains, but with time it took in magnetostratigraphic and some rock-magnetic studies as well.
• 2001 - Post Doctoral Research Associate, Centre for Environmental Magnetism and Palaeomagnetism (CEMP), Dept. of Geography, Lancaster Un

So we have maths, geophysics, stones, minerals.. and everything else, except what we need here. what this gentleman has to do with the topic this article deals with? his undoubtely high academic credentials are completely irrelevant to this particular subject here. And what is this http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/bugarash/? . Bugarash is a pejorative term in Serbia or Macedonia for someone considered a bulgarian nationalist or pro-Bulgarian or something. A greek equivalent would be a grecoman. And you call these reliable sources? Some geophysician and some guy nicknamed bugarash? Bravo, higher science you cant beat itCucayte 21:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced information

I want to express my dissatisfaction with the sources of the Macedonian position.They are from a site without even 1 document which makes them totally useless.Therefore I would like to ask the moderators/admins or however they are called, to remove the last 2 statements in favour of the Macedonian idea.If you check the Bulgarian sources, you will be able to see the scanned articles from newspapers, on whose basis lay our statements about Misirkov`s self-determination.Using unsourced information for such a hot discussion, concerning a historical personality from great importance- at least for Bulgaria and Macedonia, is in contrast with the idea of wikipedia to be "The Free Encyclopedia".If it`s really encyclopedia, then it shouldn`t be consisted of materials whose origin is unknown for everyone except their author. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.87.22.205 (talk) 21:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)