Talk:Kristang language

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kristang language is part of SGpedians' Resources
An attempt to better coordinate and organise articles related to Singapore.
To participate, simply edit this page or visit our noticeboard for more info.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Kristang dialects

Its vocabulary is 95% derived from Portuguese. Examples are sekolah ("school") from escola, and meja ("table") from mesa'

- I think you're confusing Malay with Portuguese and Kristang. FYI, kristang is sometimes referred to simply as "Portuguese" by Portuguese Eurasians. - Kevin

"There are four main dialects, each one from one of these regions: Malacca, Kuala Lumpur, Pulau Tikus and Singapore."

Kristang - 4 dialects? - Can the person who wrote this substantiate that?

[edit] History section

"Kristang had a substantial influence on Macanese, the creole language spoken in Macau, due to subtantial migration from Malacca after its takeover by the Dutch." - can anyone substantiate on this?


History (1),(2)and (3) - Moto merseh on the contributor who edited the history section! Rekada, Kevin

[edit] Sagres - Point of Departure?

Hi! If I remember correctly, I was watching a show on Lonely planet channel (Travel & Living) which mentioned in passing that Sagres (rather than Lisboa) was a departure point for ships. Is this true? Are there resource materials or books that cover the history of the Portuguese shipbuilding industry in detail? I'm especially interested in the specifications for building a nau. - Kevin

[edit] Angolan creole or pidgin?

Has far has I now, there was never a creole in Angola, but a pidgin, that lives until today! It never creolized. The situation is similar to Brazil. Also Goa never had a Creole. But this is go material. The "YO" for I is natural some Portuguese dialects pronunce eu has "iou" or "ieu". this article has nice material to work on. -Pedro 23:18, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I stand corrected then. Thank you for your input. 'tobrigads! - KevinMichaelSim

Wait, a pidgin that lasts several centuries should not be dimissed so lightly. Is there more information on that pidgin --- who uses it, where, when, etc? Thanks, Jorge Stolfi 13:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of interest - the Portuguese dance troupes in Singapore, Malacca use costumes from northern portugal... now i really wonder if our ancestors all came from a specific region. From what i understand from history books and oral traditions, the cowards who tuck-tailed and left Malacca in 1611 were the nobility, the people who were left behind were the poor illiterati seeking a better life in asia. We survived the Dutch Calvinists, British rule, Japanese occupation before reaching independence (Merdeka) in Singapore & Malaysia.

We even call ourselves "gragok" which comes from "geragau" - the Malay word for shrimp, as Portuguese eurasians traditionally fished for shrimp which are as essential ingredient for making a chilli paste called "sambal" as well as a "cincalok", which can be found all way in the Philippines as well.

- Kevin

[edit] Metropolis

"It is also spoken by some ...Singapore's former metropoli, United Kingdom."

Is the above sentence confusing to anybody else? So the UK is Singapore's metropolis? --Menchi 21:11, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I didn't write that line.... sounds confusing to me too. - Kevin

[edit] Portuguese or Kristang?

I deleted these sentences from the article:

In Singapore, a failed attempt to teach the Portuguese language was conducted at the old Saint Anthony's Boys School (1950-1953). The venture failed when financial support from the Portuguese government never reached the school.

If the language was really Portuguese, this information does not belong here; it should be moved to Kristang people or Saint Anthony's Boys School (Singapore).
Jorge Stolfi 13:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tetum

East Timorese Tetum sounds nothing like kristang, though they share a Portuguese heritage. Kevin

East Timor's national language, Tetum, is not a Portuguese creole, although it is heavily influenced by Portuguese. Quiensabe 22:37 UTC 2 Jul 2005

  • East Timor has no national language. I don't think the article states that it is a creole. It states that it is related. it is, but in what level? I think the author confused it with the former pidgin spoken in East Timor that came from Flores... -Pedro 2 July 2005 23:36 (UTC)

I stand corrected then. Thank you for your input. 'tobrigads! - Kevin

[edit] The global creole development hypothesis

I deleted these sentences from the article

The uncanny resemblance of Kristang to Kriolu of Cape Verde suggests influences over a wider range, possibly a unified development of many creoles over the world along Portuguese trade routes. (International relations in 16th century South-East Asia were defined by trading communities rather than state-relations.)

Note that I have edited those lines a lot, so the original text may have been saying something else entirely.
Apart from that, the problem is that this sounds like a conjecture more than a fact; perhaps original research, or a superficial impression due to similarity in lexicon. In particular, the claim of similarity to Kriolu is surprising, since the latter is said to have a Portuguese-based lexicon with a syntax partly influenced by African languages. So, before we return these lines to the article, we need to know what exactly are those claimed resemblances.
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 13:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

thank you Jorge for your editorial.. some professional help has been long overdue...

here's the conundrum.... being written off as a patois and not a language proper, our heritage has been passed down orally; so all we have are conjectures and educated gueses.. a rather cursory study of Portuguese history and Malay culture and you connect the dots for yourselves...sometimes the connections you make DO make a lot of sense...

what few printed literature there is on kristang have been also drawn from same the oral traditions......

- Kevin

[edit] Portuguese-influenced vocabulary

The examples of sekolah and meja as Portuguese-influenced words in Kristang are bad examples, as these are also the standard Malay words!

standard Malay words that come from Portuguese. As our ancestors were the first europeans to touch Malay soil, it makes sense that most western inventions in the Malay language came from Portuguese. Even the British had to rely on Portuguese and Dutch maps to find their way here (cartography was considered state secrets in the age of discoveries).

I don't understand - what constitutues as "good" or "bad" examples? they simply are Malay words that come from Portuguese. Even the English language draws heavily from French, Latin, Greek; and there are English dialects exists that are not part of the Standard English canon, such as cockney. We have settled in Tanah Melayu for almost 500 years you know, ugly history and all...

- Kevin

[edit] Errors

The Portuguese sound nh [ɳ] often became [n], e.g. pequenino ("small") → kenino.

As the very spelling indicates, there is no sound nh [ɳ] -- or [ɲ], which is probably what the author meant -- in the Portuguese word pequenino.

Many Portuguese words that began with ch. had the original [ʃ] ("sh") sound changed to [tʃ] ("ch" as in "cheese"). So, for example, Portuguese chegar ("to arrive") and chuva ("rain") produced Kristang chegak and chu (pronounced with [tʃ]). This change was apparently influenced by the numerous Malay words that begin with [tʃ]. However, it may also have been derived from Northern Portugal dialects.

The digraph ch was pronounced [tʃ] in Old Portuguese. At first glance, that could also be the explanation. FilipeS 20:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Felipe, I would love for you to expound more on Old Portugues and kristang....sounds romantic.. - Kevin ^_^ btw, are you on the yahoo groups site - papia cristao?

I'm afraid not. FilipeS 23:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)