Talk:Kratom

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Could the various kratom vendors maybe stop editting each other in and out of the external links? Murple 20:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Forums?

I know of only one forum for kratom that I found on this page. It seems it had been deleted, but I put it back in. If there is some problem with that forum, or forums in general (on the main page), could somebody post other forums either in the main page or in the discussion? So, this is Kratomforum.com correct?

I don't know if we're talking about the same forum, but there was a good one on there that someone deleted.. I just added it back. People need to stop deleting things they aren't supposed to.

24.59.207.167 22:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a mere directory of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policy for further explanations. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. Thank you.

To the vandal who is removing external links and using it for advertising: this is your warning. If you repeat yourself again you will be banned from wikipedia.

You do realise that template warns against adding the sort of link you are trying to add, not against removing them? The helpful user who has removed the inappropriate forum link was doing right. Skittle 15:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

They were doing right by adding their own? Fuck you.

They were doing right by removing your link, which was what you seemed to take exception to. If you look, their link has also been removed. Also, please avoid personal attacks; others are more bothered about this sort of thing than me, and you can end up blocked, which would be a shame. Skittle 21:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry! But I am really pissed because you are making the other person seem completely innocent! Let me re-post what I removed earlier today!

There is the Main forum for Kratom Information with the largest membership and sponsored by the most successful vendor with the highest quality product.On Kratomforum.com you will find every kind of information you seek. Then there is an Egomaniacs attempt to rape, pillage, and plagiarize that forum on a site within a site. It seems that their "Enthusiasm" for Kratom is only superseded by their abilities to con vendors into paying their utility bills and the desire for 4-5 people to post on and on and on ad nauseum. No real information, mostly a coffee-klatch for verbose illiterates.

And if you hadn't removed that section from talk, other people would have been able to see this and judge the behaviour for themselves, which would probably have led to a different response. However, you removed it so people couldn't see that person's words, then you proceeded to talk about a 'vandal' removing your link to a forum; because you did that, it made you look less reasonable than I'm sure you are. It's very easy to get worked up when editing Wikipedia, particularly early on when you're not completely familiar with the customs and rules. In brief: removing your link was right, but they shouldn't have added the link to their forum; removing their comments made them look more reasonable, because other people couldn't see their attack; Wikipedia is a weird place, and it takes a long time to learn how to get the best result - even after years, people sometimes do silly things, especially when worked up. I hope your future experience here is more positive! Skittle 19:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I apologize. 24.59.207.167 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC) So, you apologize but then you re-post your stupid site right back on the first page?? So much for apologies! See above quote: See the external links guideline and spam policy for further explanations. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.50.28 (talk) 23:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Safety

Nothing has ever indicated that Kratom would be safer than methadone. I'm removing the implication that it may be "much" safer. What is much? I'll leave in the explication that it may be used in a capacity similar to methadone, although the documented problems in Kratom users, and the problems one can anticipate occuring because of the Yohimbe-like effects pretty much put that out of the question as a viable alternative. The cure for opiate dependence will always remain opiates, rather than weird cocktails of opiate agonists/antagonists along with adrenergenics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.70.65 (talk) 04:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty easy to OD and die with methadone. I doubt that's the case with Kratom... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.111.254 (talk) 12:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vender Trash

More venders have been at this article again. I am removing the link to kratom.net as it is simply a thinly veiled attempt to direct people the sjaaman vender. There is very little information, most of which was copied from the kratom users guide. To quote the disclaimer on the site.

"Substantial parts of the texts on this Kratom website are tken from The Kratom User's Guide by Created by "Sage Student" and Daniel Siebert"

If any venders are reading this. Please do everyone a favor and stay the hell away.


[edit] Methods of ingestion

The article continues to include information that dried kratom leaf can be inserted into the rectum to achieve the most potent opiate activity. This humble reader doubts that either whole or crushed leaves (dry, in any case) could be inserted into the rectum with ease. The rectum is not self-lubricating, and therefore the alkaloids would not be readily absorbed into the blood. It seems possible that creating an aqueous or alcoholic extract of the leaves, then putting this into the rectum could be a very efficient method of delivery. I would be most interested to know who has attempted to insert dry Mitragyna speciosa leaves into their anus to some positive result. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Butler83 (talk • contribs)

For some reason some people always want to put drugs up their asses, and will claim that that is the most effective method of administration. I find their claims extremely unlikely, but I'm not about to give myself an enema just to prove what I already know. 01:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This page claims you cannot ingest the commercial powder but this is 100% b.s. I have tried every forum of Kratom and IMO the most economical and most potent method is to simply consume the raw "commercial premium" powder(yes I have had super premium, and "15x").

The problem is everyone assumes what worked for them once or twice is the same for everyone.


--its true you can eat the premium powdered kratom raw and get the effects for sure, mixing with honey helps the flavor a lot.

[edit] Opiate potentiation?

I disagree with this article's assertion that kratom potentiates opiates. If anything, they seem to have competitive affinity for the opioid receptors. Granted this is based entirely upon subjective experience, but I think it is worth mentioning in the context of the article. I have found hydrocodone to be less effective if I have consumed kratom within the past several hours.

I completely agree, I have tried to combine "real" opiates and kratom on many occasions and it always results in nothing more than a wicked headache every single time, and without taking nearly enough to have OD be a cause.

  • I stroooooooooooooongly disagree. If you take two things that act on the same receptors in the same way, on an individual receptor by receptor basis they may be competing, but overall, youve got a lot more stuff working on a lot more receptors. I dont think anyones accidentally going to combine enough to be dangerous, but it is at least theoretically possible. While interesting, your observations are in line with neither theoretical pharmacology nor most people's anecdotal reports.
    • If you take enough methadone (200mls for example), it saturates the opiate receptors and will there-fore act as a "blocker" (like subutex/buprenorphine). It seems possible that this saturation of opiate receptors occurs with Kratom as well. Just guess work, but I doubt anyone was done any research and I myself have never combined (significant) amounts of the two drugs to offer a subjective opinion. 82.0.206.215 (talk) 15:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable link

Should the link to kratom corner stay? My problem is that the forum is run by the kratomking store.

Edit: there is no longer a forum present. It is now only a sources for Kratom, which should not be there. There are enough REAL kratom forums to list.

[edit] How Dangerous is it?

I came here seeking an answer to the questio, How Dangerous is Kratom, and I don't feel like I got my answer. Mathiastck 21:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Probably not very dangerous at all. You would puke before you could drink enough.

[edit] Holy crappy article, Batman!

It seems that this article was taken over by one or more vendors seeking to use Wikipedia as a means of advertising. I see no encyclopedic purpose served by posting (mostly wrong anyway) garbage about the various "grades" of kratom some vendor(s) sell. There was also a bunch of absurd BS about kratom being just like hydrocodone and oxycodone. Hardly! And whoever the moron was who posted that a low dose is 14g and a strong dose is 28g... are you TRYING to make people sick? This article is atrocious. I cleaned it up some but it needs lots of work. I also will be keeping my eye on it and removing any stupid vendor garbage or misinformation that I find. Murple 21:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Look away for a while and its chock full of stupidity again. Good grief people... Please stop putting half-ass internet folklore in Wikipedia as if they were fact. The pharmacology section was just ridiculous... complete lack of understanding of what "potency" means scientifically was an especially bad example. Under addiction, that "dark skin patches" thing was passed off as observed fact which isn't even remotely true. Some piss poor Thai farmers decades ago told a couple anthropologists thats what they thought happened to kratom addicts. It has never been observed, and as far as I know, has never even turned up in any ethnomedical field data beyond the tiny handful of people interviewed in that initial survey (10-20 people?). I refrained from doing heavy edits on this article so far since I already wrote an article cited in it... but it looks like I'm going to have to spend an hour or two this week and try to clean up this turd of an article. Murple 05:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addiction Potential

WARNING: When used responsibly, kratom has little to no risk of addiction. It should be used no more than once a week, preferably once or twice a month. If used daily or multiple times a week, addiction is very possible. Symptoms of withdrawal are very intense, comparable to opiates. These symptoms can last as long as a month.

I agree. This point is worth emphasizing, because a lot of Internet references on kratom make the claim that it does not produce withdrawal symptoms like true opiates. It can still potentially be a quite unpleasant experience, even if opiate withdrawal is technically worse. Kratom withdrawal is less severe than opiate withdrawal just like a 2nd degree burn is less severe than a 3rd degree burn. No one should decide to use kratom under the false impression that they can't become physically dependent on it.

[edit] Constipation

The article states that kratom use does not produce the extreme constipation of opiates. This is slightly misleading I believe, because kratom can and will produce constipation, particularly when used daily. It may not be as "extreme" as that caused by true opiates, but the distinction is purely one of magnitude. Maybe that part of the article should be reworked?

== Methods of potentiation == what a lot of krap.kratom if anything acts as a movement inducer better than traditional laxatives

What methods of potentiation have you discovered? I often hear grapefruit juice potentiates many ingested chemicals, including mitragynine, because it interferes with digestive enzymes that would ordinarily breakdown a significant proportion of the ingested chemical. I do not know whether or not this is actually true in the case of kratom.

  • There is absolutely no reason to believe that to be true. This rumor got started as a result of a vague awareness by some folks of the fact that "grapejuice potentiates opiates" and since kratom feels kinda like opiates grapejuice must potentiate it too. This is kinda like people who insist on using MAOIs to potentiate salvia ("hey it makes you trip so its the same as DMT right?") even though salvia's actives are not monoamines. Mitragynine is very different chemically from any opiates, and it most likely is metabolized by MAO... so if you wanted to potentiate it, MAOIs would probably be the way to go. All that grapefruit juice is likely to do in combination with kratom is help you get a healthy serving of vitamin C. I'm very skeptical of the idea that the P450 inhibitors in grapefruit would in any way potentiate kratom. No scientific research on that has been done so it can't be said for sure, but based on the chemical structure of mitragynine I think it's a good bet. Personal experiments have also led me to believe there is no benefit at all to mixing grapefruit with kratom, other than the benefits of grapefruit in general such as vitamin C and maybe some fiber. Scientifically though, an uncontrolled single-person experiment like that is utterly meaningless. Murple 18:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

One odd thing I have noticed, however, is that Diet Dr. Pepper seems to increase the effects of kratom. One would assume it is the caffeine in the beverage, but I have not noticed the same effect with other caffeinated soft drinks. I now use kratom and Diet Dr. Pepper in tandem to great effect. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that I am just weird, but I would be interested to know if anyone else notices a similar effect.

  • I would be willing to bet my penis that this is just a placebo effect. Dr Pepper is mostly sugarwater with some flavorings and caffeine. Murple 18:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Is here no possibility that the phenylalanine in most diet drinks would contribute to feeling good?

[edit] Side effects

I suggest a section on side effects. In my experience the side effects are similar to frequent opiate use, including reduction of libido. It is also purported to cause a darkening of the skin, particularly the cheeks, among traditional Thai users.

  • That darkening was just reported in one survey and has never been observed. Likely is purely folkloric. As for other side effects... well, the best we could put in would be anecdotal stuff, some of which may be meaningful, others not so much. I'm reluctant to see a bunch of anecdotal and hypochondriacal claims of side effects put in here. Murple 05:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, it does the opposite for my libido. I have noticed, however, that it becomes more difficult to urinate with high doses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.217.91 (talk) 08:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UK Legality Wrong?

I have seen no evidence through searching with google except this wiki article that Kratom is illegal to consume in the UK. Can someone please confirm its illegality or change the information on wiki. Thankyou.

  • It is legal in the UK. Murple 18:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Effects of long term use?

As there is a paucity of scholarly articles about kratom use, I suspect the answer to this will be no, but is anyone aware of any scientific documentation of kratom's long term effects? For instance, has it or any of its constituents been implicated as carcinogenic or neurotoxic? 71.75.170.119 02:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links, and references

I removed all of these from the external links section, since I do not think any of them comply with external links policy. If they do include useful information that is not in the article, please put the information in the article and use them as references. In fact, adding some references in general would be nice, since the article currently has none. Skittle 15:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

i need help how to trade Kratom. i dont know "price standard".

in my place, there are much enough product of Kratom, not manage effectively. its too cheap if sold to the buyer here. i dont have information bout price in other place.

if you have information and want give me a hand, please send messenger to my mail : riyantops@yahoo.com

thank you sincerly P.S. Riyanto DS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.160.80.178 (talk) 07:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, Other Stuff Exists is not a good argument for including things. That just suggests that the other articles also need their external links sections cleaned. But you could probably use the link as a reference, hopefully combined with other references, so that the information can be in the article. The main point is that the information should be right here, in the Wikipedia article. We shouldn't just be directing people away to other places; Wikipedia is not a directory or hub. IF the article does not contain information that can be put in the article, why do we list it as an external link? Skittle (talk) 14:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
"IF the article does not contain information that can be put in the article, why do we list it as an external link?" I had a look at the External Links policy and it says to include "sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons." Erowid is a treasure trove of information on Kratom and other such entheogens, and to rip everything off of it to dump onto this page would be madness. The amount of information on Erowid is staggering and would just make this page bloated if it were all placed here.
Secondly WP:EL says to avoid linking to "any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." Erowid then is a site that should not be avoided as it contains plenty of unique resources that cannot be put into the article because they are personal experiences or pieces of original research. Cheers 78.143.202.153 (talk) 23:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
"IF the article does not contain information that can be put in the article, why do we list it as an external link?" So that our readers can access that information, until such time as someone adds it to our article. This website was founded and built upon the principles of Eventualism. Removing links to further-information doesn't help build upon what we do currently have; it restricts the possibilities of growth.
As for whether it is a reliable source, it gets mentioned in google scholar more than I expected. So (at least parts of it) could be suitable for both the "External links" and "References" sections. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)