Talk:Korean nationalism

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The article Korean nationalism is being edited in conjunction with Talk:Korean pride, keeping an eye on avoiding content overlap and maintaining two distinct article identities, as merging was an idea oft suggested during Korean pride 's Votes for Deletion (VFD) discussion. (VFD discussion result was: no consensus) --Yonghokim 23:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Page *must* be deleted

This reads like something written by a high school student for a term paper, and one that wouldn't even earn a good grade. This is not an encyclopedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.251.12.2 (talk) 12:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page should be deleted, NPOV beyond repair

Repeating once again, an oft repeated sentiment, this page is very NPOV. Perhaps one of the most NPOV pages i've seen on the site. The whole page reads like an argument between anti-koreans and pro-koreans, under a thin pretence on both sides of sounding professional and "encyclopedic". In addition, the page is messy, confusing, and not helpful in any way. I think a vote should be put up for its deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiaren (talk • contribs) 23:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This page is written from a serious anti-Korean slant, needs to be NPOVed. --Ce garcon 08:22, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] ...

npov. an impossiblity that deludes both writers and readers. better to simply state a point of view and be responsible for it. for example, beauty is neither universal nor objective. meaning does not derive from the object, but from the viewer.

as stated by John Berger, "out of true with the present…assumptions obscure the past. They mystify rather than clarify. The past is never there, waiting to be discovered, to be recognized for exactly what it is." history is, however, waiting to be constructed for what people want it to be. so lets be upfront about what it is we see and what ideas provide guidance. it also makes life more interesting.

but aside from all that, i agree with the poster that some the earlier stuff on korean nationalism was shallow and unreflective. user = hongkyongnae (만세!)



Wikipedia HAS to be NPOV. This entire article claims that Korea is a weakling, third world nation that couldn't stand up to Japan for the lives of their people. In fact, I think we should delete this entire article. The very fact that there is an article named Korean Nationalism is highly POV.


by hongkyongnae... responding to the above paragraph: to simply state that wikipedia "has to be npov" without addressing (1) the impossiblity of npov, (2) any sophisticated justification of why it "HAS" to be, leaves readers with little more than an assertion, and far less than an logical and compelling argument.

taking the second point, that the existance of an article on KN is "pov." then, with your own logic, would not the absense of such an article also be "pov"? wikipeda, and the world in general, would benefit by more reasoned discussion and fewer flat assertions.

[edit] NPOV, cleanup, etc.

I'll respond briefly to the above comments before making my own. One of the highest ideals of Wikipedia (if you don't believe in those, why are you working here?) is to create each article to not reflect a particular point of view on the topic, but to include various facts and opinions without showing bias towards or against any of them. The shorthand for this ideal is NPOV, Neutral Point of View. An example of this would be an article on Aryanism. Someone who believes that "the Aryan race is superior" might include that statement in the corresponding article, but later editors, reading that statement, would modify it to be NPOV, thusly: "Followers of this ideology believe that 'the Aryan race is superior.'" This statement, rather than being heavily biased towards Aryans, states their opinion, but identifies it as an opinion, while avoiding value-judgments regarding such a statement. It is a description, not an assertion. That is what NPOV is supposed to do and to be. It is neither impossible nor terribly difficult if one is willing to take some time and thought.

I guess that wasn't as briefly as I was planning. Now my comment: it appears that in the last year or so, this article has undergone some changes to improve it, making it less NPOV than it was when Ce Garcon put his comment on this talk page. However, I believe that more cleanup and rearranging is necessary, and, what's more, it needs to be finished. The article starts somewhere (without a general description first) and has an introduction, a description of a few things (one period in particular), and then suddenly stops. I will do what I can with what is there, but someone who knows more about this subject than I do (which is basically nothing) had better help finish this.

Overall, though, this article belongs in Wikipedia, it just needs to be helped out. --Cromwellt | Talk 00:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


first, please forgive my inability to figure out how to post on this page. i simply "edit." second, thank you for your post cromwellt. my response to your thoughtful post is first, does a person need to agree any group's "highest ideal" inorder to speak? and, i believe if we extend this argument, you can see how it might actually run counter to wikipedia's goal... inclusion of a range of ideas that indeed differ.

second, NPOV is a bit of an oxymoron, which is why i may not have read it correctly. as stated by you, it is not "a" point of view. but, is it "neutral" in that no side is omitted and all are included. but more importantly, who is to say (how is everyone to decide) when "neutrality" has been achieved? is by simple majority? what if the majority states one article is npov one day, but either the group in the majority or the views of the same majority, shift? dicey stuff indeed.

final point, your point, "each article to not reflect a particular point of view on the topic, but to include various facts and opinions without showing bias towards or against any of them." not always possible, is it? when mutually exclusive views are housed within the same "argument" it becomes contraditory, no? and it seems that the real process here is not simply about inclusion. it is equally (or more) about exclusion. that is the point of the process i believe.

however, i do understand and agree with the underlying principle behind this last point. open debate and exchange of views so as to enable people to participate, learn, teach, and change. i am less concerned with any answer than i am with the process of questioning. perhaps we agree there.

hongkyongnae - 10/13/05

[edit] Need new section about modern nationalism

Someone needs to create a new section about modern day nationalism: anti-Japan protests about Yasukuni shrine visits, etc. I added an expert request to the top of the page, and marked the bottom of the page as a stub. This whole article is too brief and is missing alot of information. --202.7.166.168 06:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Restructuring this article (brainstorming)

theoretical approach
  1. Korean Nationalism as Ideology (adapt from Nationalism
    from here take a historical approach
  2. National Consciousness (describe history and politics)
    • Japanese imperial rule, donghak, daewongun
  3. National Liberation Movement (describe movement and action)
    • talk about 임정, 단선반대, 통전
  4. Talk about "ethnic" nationalism
    • some more theory here
  5. Talk about "Statolatrist" nationalism (Gramsci, Fascism)
    • talk about the ghost of developmentalism
  6. Incorporate the two in the context of Korean politics and polity
    • give case studies: DLP, Dokdo, Korean pride, the 386 approach to the national question



hello, i am still not sure how to respond in talk section yet. so forgive me if i an not following proper form.

i agree this section needs a major rehaul, one that involves placing a central theoretical thread through all parts, thereby creating a coherent flow from start to finish. maybe i will do so someday, but not now. i would be happy to help out someone else.

what i propose here is simply an invitation for like minded wikipedians (wikipedites???) to begin a conversation on this important topic... define our terms, divide up areas for a division of labor, etc.

to that end, suggestion #1, KN as an ideology, i disagree with notion. nationalisms are really forms of identity, filled with irrationalities, myths, emotional pre-preferences, myths, and desires. they are often illogical, incoherent, and since they are ultimately narratives on personal identity, even among koreans there are multiple discourses on what is/should be "the" korean nationalism. factors such as gender, epoch, region, disporic location, state vs non-state, all these and more create a complex set of definitions on what "korea identity" should be.

perhaps it is best to look at nationalism in korea, see some of the more prominent discourses now and in the past, and identify who promotes which version, and why? also, modern national identities on the peninsula are obviously as divided as the nation itself. are south koreans "less korean" since they do not fit with the north's ideas? are north koreans "less korean" since they do not live according to the south's ideas of what is korean?

also, who has the authority to decide what is "korean" and what is not? governments? citizens? and what do we do with competing claims?

so, first i think we need to define our theoretical approach to national identity, then identify the major discourses/forms of it we see in korea, and why these forms. for now, maybe we could consider ideas by benedict anderson, homi bhabha, hobsbawm, and chatterjee?

whew, that is alot i know, but perhaps it will get many of us thinking along similar routes. Hongkyongnae 19:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] third world nationalism

"Nationalism in Korea may be seen as one form of third world nationalism. Third world nationalisms are fundamentally at odds with the first world nationalisms seen in nations such as the United States, Britain, Germany, and other former colonial powers. First world nationalism, by its definition, assumes privilege and entitlement, and often is imperialist. Third world nationalisms, by contrast, occur in those nations that have been colonized and exploited."

How is it that this paragraph been able to stay up here for as long as it has. Wikipedia's function is to inform unbiased information, yet tt's obviously rooted in emotion and opinion rather than fact and research. and it's in the introduction! Does someone want to replace this with real content?? CatherineKim (talk) 09:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why everyone asks for permission to delete something. Unless it is a very debatable topic, delete it if its biased without any kind of citation. So delete it! Good friend100 (talk) 15:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] NPOV repair and Information Organization

I made a few changes and small contributions including a brief introduction and origins section, as well as a history section which will be filled in the upcoming days. if anyone is interested in repairing the overall negative tone and information(for a more NPOV), please do! Overall the entire article needs to be restructured, it reads like random bits of information thrown on the page. Suggestions? CatherineKim (talk) 05:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)