Talk:Kobayashi Maru
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[edit] Maltese Falcon Connection?
Is the statement toward the bottom of the page correct that the Maltese Falcon figurine was brought on the ship "Kobayashi Maru"? In the John Huston movie it was brought by the ship "La Paloma." What is the source for the statement of a Maltese Falcon connection?
[edit] Kirk Reprogramming Simulator
"Prior to his third attempt, Kirk surreptitiously reprogrammed the simulator so that the "Klingons" would react to his presence with fearful admiration."
Isn't that also non-canon from the Ecklar novel?
The details you mention ARE from the novel. -- Jason Palpatine 29 June 2005 07:00 (UTC)
...
The article says "Kirk reprograms the simulated Klingons to be afraid of "The Captain Kirk," arguing that he expected to build a comparable reputation. (a violation of canon. Several Klingon commanders in TOS and movies remark on their eagerness to have a chance to fight "the Captain/Admiral Kirk" - as they are doing so.)". It's not clear how this is a violation of cannon -- can someone add that? The explanation given simply indicates that the young Kirk did not correctly predict how future Klingons would respond to his reputation. 216.204.206.146 (talk) 31 January 2007
Removed it, since it's not relevant to the Maru, and the question of canon is a NPOV issue anyway. Dstumme (talk) 20:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
In the novel Enterprise, Captain Kirk does win the respect of the Klingons. I don't remember the specifics but he saved one of the Klingon High Commanders from being killed, basically. --65.13.207.221 (talk) 00:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Lower Grade?
Note - this discussion was moved here from our talk pages - hence only my edits.
Looking back through the edit history you amended the line "Abandoning the Maru, preventing war but leaving the crew and passengers to die." to "Abandoning the Maru, preventing war but leaving the crew and passengers to die. Some cadets choose this option, but doing so almost certainly results in a lower grade." Do you have a source for the information that choosing to not enter the neutral zone results in a lower grade? I can't recall ever seeing/reading that anywhere? Thankyou Djbrianuk 19:52, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- I can't recall where I read that failing to attempt rescue leads to a lower grade--almost certainly it was from a source of less-than-canonical accuracy--but it's only logical, don't you think? Marblespire 09:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- Got your reply, thanks. I'm still dubious - I think NOT going in is the harder decision to make. It would take a certain maturity of judgement to decide that risking triggering a major war with the Klingons outweighed the lives on the freighter. In the (non-canon) novel "The Kobiyashi Maru" Sulu almost had a mutiny on his hands when he refused to breach the neutral zone to rescue the ship. I think the grade would be based on your overall command performance. However I'll leave the sentence in while I do some research. I'll also move this discussion to the article talkspace. Thanks for replying Djbrianuk 09:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- I mean, look at the test: it's a no-win scenario. It would make no sense if you could obtain a "passing grade" by just ignoring the Maru as it breaks up. Having said that, no TV show or movie have ever mentioned any form of grade, merely that the cadet has to take the test and, in the process, decide between two bad choices. And furthermore, in the Diane Carey novel Dreadnaught, the viewpoint character achieves what appears to be a passing grade by taking her ship in and having it blown out from under her. If it's possible to pass even if you lose, then it had better be possible to pass if you bug out too. Of course, that's not necessarily canon. So, who knows. (My feeling is, since it's a no-win scenario, there should be no way to pass the test--you get an F no matter what you do. Hopefully it doesn't impact your GPA too much.) Marblespire 09:49, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- Well, it's not an evaluation of how well you do in the situation - there's no way to do well. It's a psychological evaluation, basically putting the participant under stress with the knowledge that there's no way to prevent everyone from dying. Sulu made a difficult desicion - leave people in need to die to prevent a far more devastating war, but the question isn't what desicion he makes, but whether he makes it with composure and while maintaining a level head. I'd assume Starfleet knows well and good that there's no way to come out of the situation in a good position, so they're trying to see if you can make a clear headed choice, whatever that is. --Warsaw 23:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- The idea that your grade depends on your "winning" a simulation is nonsensical and the idea of failing because you don't lose the scenario is ludicrous. In any case, this is all speculation and so it doesn't belong in the article. 24.201.253.228 01:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- I mean, look at the test: it's a no-win scenario. It would make no sense if you could obtain a "passing grade" by just ignoring the Maru as it breaks up. Having said that, no TV show or movie have ever mentioned any form of grade, merely that the cadet has to take the test and, in the process, decide between two bad choices. And furthermore, in the Diane Carey novel Dreadnaught, the viewpoint character achieves what appears to be a passing grade by taking her ship in and having it blown out from under her. If it's possible to pass even if you lose, then it had better be possible to pass if you bug out too. Of course, that's not necessarily canon. So, who knows. (My feeling is, since it's a no-win scenario, there should be no way to pass the test--you get an F no matter what you do. Hopefully it doesn't impact your GPA too much.) Marblespire 09:49, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- Got your reply, thanks. I'm still dubious - I think NOT going in is the harder decision to make. It would take a certain maturity of judgement to decide that risking triggering a major war with the Klingons outweighed the lives on the freighter. In the (non-canon) novel "The Kobiyashi Maru" Sulu almost had a mutiny on his hands when he refused to breach the neutral zone to rescue the ship. I think the grade would be based on your overall command performance. However I'll leave the sentence in while I do some research. I'll also move this discussion to the article talkspace. Thanks for replying Djbrianuk 09:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The Maru
The Kobayashi Maru is referred to consistently in the article as "the Maru". That can't be right, can it? It'd be like calling an American ship "the USS" or a British one "the HMS". How about changing all these to "the Kobayashi"? --Trovatore 07:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Went ahead and did it. --Trovatore 08:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- On a related note, the Japanese ship naming conventions link states Maru means "circle" while this article says "perfection" or "purity". I can see a similarity between these terms, but shouldn't there be a single translation? Should we at least say it directly translates to "circle", but can also be interpretted as "perfection"? Hoof Hearted 15:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Hoof Hearted. I'm not Japanese, but I live in Japan and have been studying Japanese for five years. Maru means "circle" to me far before it means anything about perfection or purity. Additionally, in the context of the Kobayashi Maru, circle seems to make more sense, insofar as the situation is "unwinnable," i.e. a circle of analysis with no logical end or resolution. I replaced the "perfection" reference with "circle," which also fits the flow of the paragraph better anyway. If someone wants to write a bit about the connection between a circle/loop and the unwinnable situation, feel free.. --Cromas 18:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know (much) Japanese, but it seems to me a better loose translation would be "the good ship Kobayashi" e.g. On_the_Good_Ship_Lollipop 76.90.102.125 02:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm skeptical of the claim that the -Maru suffix has any connotation of safe return or round journey; I am Japanese and I've never heard that claim. It's just a tradition/convention that most likely derives from -maro, an archaic suffix often used for names of people and prized possessions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sc404 (talk • contribs) 22:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- There are several different theories about the origin of the "Maru" suffix on Japanese ship names. The "round trip" theory is only one of them; and frankly, it's the least plausible. The "prized possession" theory mentioned by Sc404 is far more likely; and personally, I think the Hakudo Maru theory is a good possibility too. (Either one is more believable than the idiotic "round trip" theory, though.) In any event, it is inappropriate to present the "round trip" theory in this article as if it is a known fact, when it is actually only one of several theories. I have therefore taken the initiative and removed the reference, so that it ends with the link to the Japanese ship naming conventions article. Readers can decide for themselves which theory seems most likely, rather than having speculation presented as facts. FireHorse (talk) 06:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm skeptical of the claim that the -Maru suffix has any connotation of safe return or round journey; I am Japanese and I've never heard that claim. It's just a tradition/convention that most likely derives from -maro, an archaic suffix often used for names of people and prized possessions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sc404 (talk • contribs) 22:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know (much) Japanese, but it seems to me a better loose translation would be "the good ship Kobayashi" e.g. On_the_Good_Ship_Lollipop 76.90.102.125 02:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Hoof Hearted. I'm not Japanese, but I live in Japan and have been studying Japanese for five years. Maru means "circle" to me far before it means anything about perfection or purity. Additionally, in the context of the Kobayashi Maru, circle seems to make more sense, insofar as the situation is "unwinnable," i.e. a circle of analysis with no logical end or resolution. I replaced the "perfection" reference with "circle," which also fits the flow of the paragraph better anyway. If someone wants to write a bit about the connection between a circle/loop and the unwinnable situation, feel free.. --Cromas 18:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- On a related note, the Japanese ship naming conventions link states Maru means "circle" while this article says "perfection" or "purity". I can see a similarity between these terms, but shouldn't there be a single translation? Should we at least say it directly translates to "circle", but can also be interpretted as "perfection"? Hoof Hearted 15:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Star Trek: Starfleet Academy
I added the bit about the mission in the Starfleet Academy video game. It's been quite a while since I've played the game - I filled in what I could from memory. I'd have to probably do some digging to find the cds that went with the game. I have to admit that I had downloaded saved games from the internet because there was one mission in the game that no matter what I did I couldn't seem to win and I wanted to get around that, so when I actually played the scenario I didn't "cheat" and only seen the aftermath of the version in which Forrester cheated when going through the save games I downloaded. So I'm hoping that someone would have an idea of how the simulation actually goes when the player "cheats."
JesseG 06:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Added Saavik's test
I rearranged the test takers section to include a section on Saavik's test, since this is the one Kobayashi Maru test as far as I know that we actually see on screen. I added a brief summary of what happened during her test to this article.
JesseG 07:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Scotty's Solution?
Now I am curious - what actually was Scotty's solution? 128.103.187.172 22:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Scotty comes up with progressively more outrageous and innovative solutions (improvising attacks, even ones that violate the laws of physics), provoking progressively larger Klingon squadrons to attack, until -- lacking a real engine room crew he can get to follow his instructions, his ship is wiped out by a 15-ship attack. He failed the test, but was pleased to be "flunked" to the Engineering track. Dave Hill 23:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] TNG Episode with Riker administering a command test to Troi
I don't recall the episode name, but there was a simliar no-win command test that Riker administered to Counselor Troi during her promotion trials to Commander. In the test, the Enterprise-D was faced with some sort of engineering-related crisis. The crisis itself was resolveable, but required Troi to order the chief engineer (Geordi LaForge of course), to crawl through an extremely hazordous corridor with a 100% gaurentee of his death. While the sacrifices required in general are less in scope from a big picture, it is clear that Troi enjoys strong friendships with her crewmates and thus the decision is almost as difficult to make (I would imagine it would be even more difficult for an empath like Troi that is sensitive to other's emotions than your typical human commander). I don't remember the details, but I feel the episode in question follows the same degree of psychological decision making, even if the consequences to "winning" are slightly less severe. --67.151.118.186 19:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Star Trek: Bridge Commander mod
added a "otheruse" template to refer the aforementioned mod EdwardHades 20:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ehime Maru Link?
I removed the link to the Ehime Maru, as there really is no connection in any way. --Rocketboy 18 Feburary 2007
[edit] Improvement Suggestions
1) There is way too much self-confessed speculation in the article. It should go.
2) The Saavik section is tooo detailed and repeats info earlier in the article.
Lots42 19:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Way more references needed
I'm removing some unreferenced deviations from ST II's depiction, and calling for more citations. Variations from games, novels, other canon sources, MUST be cited IAW WP:CITE, using WP:RS. TIA, ... David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 18:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with some of the citation requests. If someone says that it is mentioned in a book or movie, isn't a citation inherit in the statement? I mean, you aren't calling for folks to cite the movie synopsis because that would be foolish. Yet a citation has requested to document the statement that a soldier described as his predicament as The KM test in the movie Dog Soldiers. Gee... I wonder where I'd go to verify that. Dan (talk) 16:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] precipitating element
I removed the link from the phrase "precipitating element" to MacGuffin because I could see any obvious link between these two. Normally links in Wikipedia give additional information regarding the linked phrase. There "precipitating element" doesn't have any reference to the word precipitating. I searched google for a webpage whith both of these phrases on the same page and I found none.
Also, what is precipitating element? I know this term from Chemistry and searching the web shows this is common use of this phrase. That phrase should be changed but I don't understand enough of what is trying to be said to feel the liberty to change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dfeig (talk • contribs) 03:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Wesley Crusher
Wesley Crusher also took this test. And yet, it has no mention in the article...
